A break-up of the United Kingdom?

[RandBlade]

While the media still concentrates on what is currently the big story following our election, the hung parliament and the attempts to get a Con-LD coalition together now, along with the voting system, one issue not really discussed is the future of the UK as a state.

Irregardless of the eventual coalition formed, one nation at least is going to be ruled by a party it overwhelmingly elected. If as seems likely there is a Con majority (maybe with LD in coalition), then the Conservatives have just a single Scottish MP. Just 9 of 118 seats outside England were won by the Tories.

If somehow a rainbow coalition of everyone-but-the-Tories is hobbled together then England which has a majority of English MPs will be ruled by non-English MPs casting bills on issues their constituents don't get affected by.

Either way it is a complete and utter mess.

[Being]

If only the Normands had taken control of Scotland as well as England...

[Hazir]

So now a good reason for the break up of the UK is that the Conservatives might be kept out of power? And if that dream of your's happens and in a next election Labour gets a majority in England again the Union should be re-united ? I have a better plan for you; every constituency with an MP from an opposition party cuts ties with the UK for the duration of parliament. That way every voter is always ruled by the plurality party in his area.

[Loki]

Self-determination means having the right to choose by whom one is ruled. It doesn't mean being ruled by a co-national. The arguments that Scotland should secede because there are no Scots in the national government is ridiculous; they had a fair chance to elect Scots and failed. The same in reverse for England. There is no moral argument to be made here. Everyone consented to the electoral rules, and it's too late to cry about the outcome.

[EyeKhan]

Loki's right.

[Hazir]

Loki's right.

I am righter

[Loki]

No, you're left.

[Hazir]

No, you're left.

Left out in a debate about secession?

[Dreadnaught]

I think the core question is whether you consider England a "nation" or something different. Because this whole issue of "devolved" leadership seems to be increasingly messy and wasteful.

You live on a not-too-large island. You can all [generally] understand each other and travel from end-to-end of said island without changing currencies, identification or language. It sounds like you're a nation and this obsession over being politically English vs. Scottish vs. Northern Irish should be ignored at the political level.

[LittleFuzzy]

I think the core question is whether you consider England a "nation" or something different. Because this whole issue of "devolved" leadership seems to be increasingly messy and wasteful.

You live on a not-too-large island. You can all [generally] understand each other and travel from end-to-end of said island without changing currencies, identification or language. It sounds like your a nation and this obsession over being politically English vs. Scottish vs. Northern Irish should be ignored at the political level.

They want to not be federal, while being federal.

[CitizenCain]

So... England is bisexual, then?

I always knew there was something a little bit "off" about that country.

[Hazir]

I think the core question is whether you consider England a "nation" or something different. Because this whole issue of "devolved" leadership seems to be increasingly messy and wasteful.

You live on a not-too-large island. You can all [generally] understand each other and travel from end-to-end of said island without changing currencies, identification or language. It sounds like your a nation and this obsession over being politically English vs. Scottish vs. Northern Irish should be ignored at the political level.

For a construct this old they were very unsuccessful at nation-building. It even seems to go in reverse judging by the rants we get these days about 'England being ruled from Scotland'.

They want to not be federal, while being federal.

Yep. Somebody should tell them it's silly to want to be a little bit pregnant.

[Dreadnaught]

Well, it's not like the English were able to culturally nullify as many of their colonies as the French were.

[Hazir]

Well, it's not like the English were able to culturally nullify as many of their colonies as the French were.

I'd say they were pretty successful in the case of the colonies on your continent.

[Loki]

I'd say they were pretty successful in the case of the colonies on your continent.

No, they weren't. There was no American identity for decades after the US was created. And the Canadian identity was created in opposition to the American identity.

[DecoyMilk]

I think the core question is whether you consider England a "nation" or something different. Because this whole issue of "devolved" leadership seems to be increasingly messy and wasteful.

You live on a not-too-large island. You can all [generally] understand each other and travel from end-to-end of said island without changing currencies, identification or language.

Maybe geographically, we're not too large, but we're densely populated. And we don't share currency. Scotland have their own 'pound' which is legal tender in England, but few accept it. N. Ireland has the Euro.

As for language, they might 'technically' be speaking English up there, but I'll be fucked if I can understand their accent or dialect.

It sounds like you're a nation and this obsession over being politically English vs. Scottish vs. Northern Irish should be ignored at the political level.

spoken like a true Yank

[Dreadnaught]

Wait seriously, Scotland has it's own currency? What's wrong with y'all?

[Nessus]

Wait seriously, Scotland has it's own currency? What's wrong with y'all?

Well first of all, it's ya'll

[Tempus Vernum]

Wait seriously, Scotland has it's own currency? What's wrong with y'all?

It's a giant form of cabin fever. They've spent so long cooped up on that island together that now they just can't stand each other.

[Hazir]

Wait seriously, Scotland has it's own currency? What's wrong with y'all?

It's not really a separate currency; it's a Scottish version of the British Pound. And it is remarkable that indeed it's problematic to spend it in England.

[LittleFuzzy]

It's a giant form of cabin fever. They've spent so long cooped up on that island together that now they just can't stand each other.

Would you want to be stuck with the people who came up with haggis?

[Hazir]

Would you want to be stuck with the people who came up with haggis?

Which makes it so strange the English wanted this union in the first place.

[Tempus Vernum]

Which makes it so strange the English wanted this union in the first place.

I suppose it was a case of deciding between the cons of Haggis vs the pros of having angry scotsmen on your side.

I'm just not sure they got the risk-benefit analysis right...

[Timbuk2]

I just love the way the Welsh always get left out of these discussions.

The anti-EnglishNess of the Welsh makes Scotland seem like England's best pal in comparison.

[Hazir]

Too lazy to check it, but maybe the Welsh actually sometimes vote for a Conservative candidate?

[Loki]

Too lazy to check it, but maybe the Welsh actually sometimes vote for a Conservative candidate?

Probably because 20%+ of the people in Wales are English, compared to about 8% of the people in Scotland.

[DecoyMilk]

What's funny is that Wales is the one with a language of their own: unless you think Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch is English

Just because we're a 'union' and foreigners just encompass under the label 'British', does not make us so. It's more a union of geography and convenience now more than anything. Easier to leave it as it is than try and undo hundreds of years of stitching together

[LittleFuzzy]

Which makes it so strange the English wanted this union in the first place.

Well, the border raiding *on both sides* was incessant and destructive, and one can understand wanting to bring it to an end. Again and again. For centuries. Ok, maybe one can't understand it.

I just love the way the Welsh always get left out of these discussions.

The anti-EnglishNess of the Welsh makes Scotland seem like England's best pal in comparison.

In most Americans case I believe it's because we're not overly familiar with the Welsh. We had widespread and formative waves of Scottish and Irish immigrants, but if sizable numbers of Welsh came over, they did so unobtrusively. I only know a couple of legends, some bits of the Welsh history, and some vaguely remembered tips on pronouncing their language that I picked up from an old juvenile novel.

[GGT]

What's funny is that Wales is the one with a language of their own: unless you think Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysilio gogogoch is English

Just because we're a 'union' and foreigners just encompass under the label 'British', does not make us so. It's more a union of geography and convenience now more than anything. Easier to leave it as it is than try and undo hundreds of years of stitching together

Hell, that sounds like the european union!

[Hazir]

Hell, that sounds like the european union!

Not. At least the EU has got a written constitution.