Lucifer's Hammer

[EyeKhan]

If the End came with little warning from the sky, with a blast, and all of a sudden the practicality of the things you know how to do is the currency of civilization, how would you fare? Ever think what you might have to offer the odd isolated pocket of civilization in return for food, shelter, some modicum of law and order?

I read Lucifer's Hammer at a very impressionable age and I was very impressed by the remnants of government having to turn families away to the cannibals because nobody had a useful skill and they had too many mouths to feed already. The main character showed up and lied about being an electrician and an idea for getting the broken dam generators running again. It gets him in the door... Later the cannibals show up in force and a knowledge of chemistry saves the day.

I think I'd end up with the cannibals. I used to have some knowledge of chemistry. I'm a decent gardener. I'm an experienced back country camper. I've got rudimentary skills with home maintenance. No, I'd either be a lone madman or impressed into the cannibal army.

If civilization stopped suddenly, the resulting mortality would be, uh, notable. Any LaMOE's out there? Cain, you must think about this every day. Am I right? Huh?

[Dreadnaught]

I honestly don't think the choice would be between civilization and cannibals. We're humans and we created the world we live in. We eventually gravitate towards some kind of civilization no matter what technology is around us.

I think I would do okay. I have some outdoors skills and I'm in shape at least for the time being.

[EyeKhan]

I honestly don't think the choice would be between civilization and cannibals. We're humans and we created the world we live in. We eventually gravitate towards some kind of civilization no matter what technology is around us.

I think I would do okay. I have some outdoors skills and I'm in shape at least for the time being.

The cannibals came from the book and resulted from the specific circumstances of a comet striking the Earth in the way it did in the story. But, if food is no longer distributed, places with lots of people but far from food production are going to be left with only one big food source. I don't see how it can be avoided. Note this assumes no global communication, no electricity and no long distance transportation.

[Ominous Gamer]

Don't know about the games, but the Gears of War books have a similiar idea between the Stranded and the Coalition of Ordered Governments. About those that accept a top down government, and those that survive based on skills. Haven't finished the current book yet, but the Coalition isn't doing to hot right now, even though they have all the Gears.
I've done a week without running water or packed food, did OK then. Think if I was pushed I could survive long enough to get some sort of subsistence based living going. No idea if I had to compete or defend it though...

[Dreadnaught]

The cannibals came from the book and resulted from the specific circumstances of a comet striking the Earth in the way it did in the story. But, if food is no longer distributed, places with lots of people but far from food production are going to be left with only one big food source. I don't see how it can be avoided. Note this assumes no global communication, no electricity and no long distance transportation.

Obviously it would require a re-organizing of society, but I still don't see people eating each other en masse. I can conceivably bike to a farm deep in upstate NY in about a week and survive mostly on the canned food already in my cabinet (which is pretty minimal). I wouldn't underestimate people.

[gentry]

I honestly don't think the choice would be between civilization and cannibals. We're humans and we created the world we live in. We eventually gravitate towards some kind of civilization no matter what technology is around us.

I think I would do okay. I have some outdoors skills and I'm in shape at least for the time being.

Oh please, pasty white boy from Manhattan. Who are you kidding? What is "outdoors" to you, Central Park West?

If civilization were to suddenly end, many of you would die. That's just the way it goes, unfortunately.

[LittleFuzzy]

The cannibals came from the book and resulted from the specific circumstances of a comet striking the Earth in the way it did in the story. But, if food is no longer distributed, places with lots of people but far from food production are going to be left with only one big food source. I don't see how it can be avoided. Note this assumes no global communication, no electricity and no long distance transportation.

Large-scale famine and starvation have happened plenty of times in human history. Cannibalism is a fairly isolated and outlier response, not something practiced by large groups. And there are some fairly obvious sociological reasons for that.

[Dreadnaught]

Oh please, pasty white boy from Manhattan. Who are you kidding? What is "outdoors" to you, Central Park West?

If civilization were to suddenly end, many of you would die. That's just the way it goes, unfortunately.

The cataclysmic event would likely be near my house.

But I actually do have lots of outdoor experience from before I lost interest in my teens. Spent almost two months living out of tents and then working briefly on a farm on some outdoor trip because my parents didn't want me to become an effete urbanite. Oops.

My high school also had a mandatory wilderness survival course involving two nights of winter camping and two nights of spring camping, as my high school didn't want their student body to become a uniform mass of effete urbanites. Oops.

[Crowheart]

Unless looking at porn and doing a poor impersonation of Donald Duck count as skills, I'm doomed to the cannibals.

[Tempus Vernum]

I'm a decent gardener. I'm an experienced back country camper.

Being a decent gardener would make you trainable into a farmer and being a camper who can, presumable, survive on your own should make you useful at braving the cannibal hordes to scavenge for supplies.

I on the other hand have no useful skills in such a scenario. I'd be immediately classed as unskilled labour, or drafted as cannon fodder against the cannibal hordes.

[Nessus]

I could probably be easily converted into a second-rate engineer, assuming this pocket of civilization had some libraries (or delicious alternating current) available

Might be unrealistic though, unrest, sadism and need would propel large amounts of unproductive violence aimed at nothing in particular as looting, ransacking and raping became commonplace (at least in the transitionary period between Chambalaya's cataclysm and Dread's re-organization); as I have no fighting skills I'd probably be killed for a piece of bread or something in short order

[Spawnie]

Travelling philosopher?

What?

It worked in the film "the postman" (Get it? Post. Man. Like POST man. Right? Right. great film. An absolute guilty pleasure for me. In the book theres all this shit about the number one bad guy being some kind of military experiment too. Hence POST-MAN.).

Whats "lucifers hammer"? Since when did Lucifer have a hammer? I can name like 3 gods off the top of my head who did have a hammer, and MC Hammer, but not Lucifers Hammer.

[CitizenCain]

Cain, you must think about this every day. Am I right? Huh?

Not really, no.

One of the advantages of being paranoid, militaristic and armed is not having to worry about it. If the apocalypse comes, you've got plenty of weaponry and more than enough ammo to kill anyone and everyone you want to. I mean, hunt enough wild animals to survive on.

as I have no fighting skills

Honestly, that would make surprisingly little difference. What actually would make a difference, I gotta think, would be those with guns and those without. All the kick ass combat skills in the world don't add up to anything compared to the ability to make a headshot at 300 yards.

[Ziggy Stardust]

I'd die from the tsunami anyway.

And I don't even have a surf board :/

[Timbuk2]

I could project manage all the rioting and looting.

[Nessus]

Honestly, that would make surprisingly little difference. What actually would make a difference, I gotta think, would be those with guns and those without. All the kick ass combat skills in the world don't add up to anything compared to the ability to make a headshot at 300 yards.

I classify "aiming a gun accurately" as a fighting skill

[EyeKhan]

Obviously it would require a re-organizing of society, but I still don't see people eating each other en masse. I can conceivably bike to a farm deep in upstate NY in about a week and survive mostly on the canned food already in my cabinet (which is pretty minimal). I wouldn't underestimate people.

Oh please, pasty white boy from Manhattan. Who are you kidding? What is "outdoors" to you, Central Park West?

If civilization were to suddenly end, many of you would die. That's just the way it goes, unfortunately.

Large-scale famine and starvation have happened plenty of times in human history. Cannibalism is a fairly isolated and outlier response, not something practiced by large groups. And there are some fairly obvious sociological reasons for that.

First, I think I misrepresented the story. There was a group of national guardsmen who, out of desperation right after the cataclysm, resorted to cannibalism to survive. They built a sort of nomadic mob and forced all the people they encountered to ritually eat human flesh to basically permanently make them "one of us." There was no mob of cannibals sweeping the countryside looking for people to eat and it really is only periferal to the idea of survival in the event civilization collapses. I used it as a sensational attention getter but that was probably not necessary.

That said, I'd think densely populated zones in places like the arid southwest, Phoenix probably the best example, should electricity stop and should weeks of torrential rainfall destroy all modes of transportation, would be without food very quickly. People would be sick and starving and desperate. In time there'd be a lot of food available as the weakest died and I'd think the survivors wouldn't be able to help themselves. Or better said, they would help themselves.

Not sure what would happen in New York. I think in the book, all the coastal cities were destroyed by tsunamis. IIRC they even had a fragment strike in Lake Michigan or something to take out Chicago.

The specific scenario in the book was a big comet hitting the Earth. It fragmented as it came in and large pieces hit all over the Earth. China and Russia then had a limited nuclear exchange. Every major ocean had a large strike destroying most coastal communities. The vaporised water resulted weeks of downpours, catastrophic flooding and months of gloom. Major faults were let loose with gigantic Earthquakes all over. There were lots of survivors but (almost) no infrastructure of civilization to provide food and safety.

Being a decent gardener would make you trainable into a farmer and being a camper who can, presumable, survive on your own should make you useful at braving the cannibal hordes to scavenge for supplies.

I on the other hand have no useful skills in such a scenario. I'd be immediately classed as unskilled labour, or drafted as cannon fodder against the cannibal hordes.

In this scenario, you'd be in the cannibal horde. (as cannon fodder)

I could probably be easily converted into a second-rate engineer, assuming this pocket of civilization had some libraries (or delicious alternating current) available

Might be unrealistic though, unrest, sadism and need would propel large amounts of unproductive violence aimed at nothing in particular as looting, ransacking and raping became commonplace (at least in the transitionary period between Chambalaya's cataclysm and Dread's re-organization); as I have no fighting skills I'd probably be killed for a piece of bread or something in short order

The story had a nerdy type brainiac character who ultimately saved the day with his knowledge of chemistry; brewing up mustard gas to kill the cannibal army.

Haven't you read this book, btw? Niven was co-author.

Whats "lucifers hammer"? Since when did Lucifer have a hammer? I can name like 3 gods off the top of my head who did have a hammer, and MC Hammer, but not Lucifers Hammer.

That's the title of the book, if you want to look it up. A good read, but it's dated. The title refers to the comet that hit the Earth which was discovered by an amateur astronomer with the last name of, <sigh>, HamNer and so took his name. When it got very close, the Doom Sayers with sadwich boards on the streets of LA warned of Lucifer's Hammer.

I'd die from the tsunami anyway.

And I don't even have a surf board :/

YOU READ IT!

I classify "aiming a gun accurately" as a fighting skill

The difference I think would be the willingness to pull the trigger that first time. That's the difference between the survivor and the meal.

[termite]

I'm a Toolmaker so yeah, I'll be essential to civilisation.

To all the software geeks sorry but don't let the cannibals bite you in the arse on the way out!

[Timbuk2]

In the book The Road by Cormack McCarthy (also a recent film), the narrative centres on a man and his young son walking across a post-apocalyptic and burnt-out American landscape.

Few people have survived whatever caused this apocalypse (you aren't ever told) nor the subsequent years (decades?) as all food and food sources dry up.

The man infrequently encounters roving groups of violent people on the road, some of whom he discovers keep others in locked basements to feed upon. Human flesh is virtually the only sustainable food source in this nightmarish scenario.

The man reassures his son on several occasions that we are 'good people' who would not ever eat human flesh, despite starvation following them with every step.

~

The implication being that only 'bad' people would take to eating human flesh, whether said flesh is from a living person or a corpse.

[EyeKhan]

I'm a Toolmaker so yeah, I'll be essential to civilisation.

To all the software geeks sorry but don't let the cannibals bite you in the arse on the way out!

Yep, no doubt. In the story an idling nuclear power plant somehow survived and the plant's machine shop was treated like a gift from god.

In the book The Road by Cormack McCarthy (also a recent film), the narrative centres on a man and his young son walking across a post-apocalyptic and burnt-out American landscape.

Few people have survived whatever caused this apocalypse (you aren't ever told) nor the subsequent years (decades?) as all food and food sources dry up.

The man infrequently encounters roving groups of violent people on the road, some of whom he discovers keep others in locked basements to feed upon. Human flesh is virtually the only sustainable food source in this nightmarish scenario.

The man reassures his son on several occasions that we are 'good people' who would not ever eat human flesh, despite starvation following them with every step.

~

The implication being that only 'bad' people would take to eating human flesh, whether said flesh is from a living person or a corpse.

WawaWHAT? Cannibals are bad? (What do the cannibals feed their cellar food people?)

I've got that in my Netflix queue, btw. Looking forward to seeing it.

[Flixy]

Honestly, that would make surprisingly little difference. What actually would make a difference, I gotta think, would be those with guns and those without. All the kick ass combat skills in the world don't add up to anything compared to the ability to make a headshot at 300 yards.

I dont have that skill either I am decent with physics and could probably do some engineering, but that's about it. I can cook and know how to camp, but don't know how to catch my food in the first place. I don't think that this scenario would work out very well for me..

[EyeKhan]

I dont have that skill either I am decent with physics and could probably do some engineering, but that's about it. I can cook and know how to camp, but don't know how to catch my food in the first place. I don't think that this scenario would work out very well for me..

Depends on who you hook up with. If you find a reasonably organized conclave, they might feed in you in return for your skills if you can turn them to some practical use. Just as a fun thought experiment, can you think of a practical use off the top of your head? Assume if you can't, you'd be turned away to face lawless, cannibalistic chaos.

[Timbuk2]

WawaWHAT? Cannibals are bad?

Well I'd say it depends on the exact definition of cannibals.

Is a cannibal one who will only eat dead human flesh?
One who will kill other people just to eat them?
One who doesn't care whether his human mcnuggets come from the living or the dead, so long as he gets his darn mcnuggets.

I really can't see anything wrong with eating the flesh of the dead. It's just waste otherwise, and if that is all you have to eat ... well ... Mr. Dead ain't gonna miss the flesh from his meaty thighs ...

[Nessus]

Haven't you read this book, btw? Niven was co-author.

I know he was.

[EyeKhan]

Well I'd say it depends on the exact definition of cannibals.

Is a cannibal one who will only eat dead human flesh?
One who will kill other people just to eat them?
One who doesn't care whether his human mcnuggets come from the living or the dead, so long as he gets his darn mcnuggets.

I really can't see anything wrong with eating the flesh of the dead. It's just waste otherwise, and if that is all you have to eat ... well ... Mr. Dead ain't gonna miss the flesh from his meaty thighs ...

Its always bad though. Almost. And for good reason - health & safety, basically.

[Timbuk2]

Health & Safety?

We're talking here about human flesh or starvation, are we not? At least that's what I've gleaned from the little info on Lucifer's Hammer people have posted here, and is certainly what is at issue in The Road.

So between eating human flesh off a corpse and starving to death, does one eat flesh, and if one does, is one bad for doing so?

[EyeKhan]

Health & Safety?

We're talking here about human flesh or starvation, are we not? At least that's what I've gleaned from the little info on Lucifer's Hammer people have posted here, and is certainly what is at issue in The Road.

So between eating human flesh off a corpse and starving to death, does one eat flesh, and if one does, is one bad for doing so?

Well I was thinking about why cannibalism is always considered bad, culturally speaking. For example, why don't any human cultures eat their dead relatives as a funerary ritual? What better way to keep grandma a part of the family? Well, becuase grandma might have died of some disease you could get by eating her. AND, its hard to trust people when they commonly eat each other; and cooperation based on trust is our biggest survival asset as a species.

[GGT]

I'd end up trying to mend the shot people, digging out bullets or cutting off limbs, sewing wounds. Then figuring out if those limbs (or entrails) can be grilled or fried. I suppose. Either that or I'd be useful with my books on wild fruits and roots, as a mushroom hunter or berry collector for food, leaves and barky things for remedies. Setting up quarantine for infectious people, triage.

If there are any children left I could be the nana lady trying to keep them alive and safe. I could always barter my genitals to desperate horny men with guns, if it came down to that.

[LittleFuzzy]

First, I think I misrepresented the story. There was a group of national guardsmen who, out of desperation right after the cataclysm, resorted to cannibalism to survive. They built a sort of nomadic mob and forced all the people they encountered to ritually eat human flesh to basically permanently make them "one of us." There was no mob of cannibals sweeping the countryside looking for people to eat and it really is only periferal to the idea of survival in the event civilization collapses. I used it as a sensational attention getter but that was probably not necessary.

I have read the book, thank you. Like most writing by Niven or Pournelle, I didn't like it much. I like character-driven and focused stories, and they write event-driven stuff.

That said, I'd think densely populated zones in places like the arid southwest, Phoenix probably the best example, should electricity stop and should weeks of torrential rainfall destroy all modes of transportation, would be without food very quickly. People would be sick and starving and desperate. In time there'd be a lot of food available as the weakest died and I'd think the survivors wouldn't be able to help themselves. Or better said, they would help themselves.

You simply don't get open cannibalism outside a few highly-ritualized circumstances, for the very simple reason that it inherently marks the predator as also being prey to everyone observing. Given your personal opinions on cultural determinism, it makes even less sense to posit the action. Different cultures can mitigate the counter-impulse a little bit, but I'm not aware of any that weakened the "prohibition" against eating human flesh enough for it to openly occur beyond ritual situations.

[Hazir]

Yep, no doubt. In the story an idling nuclear power plant somehow survived and the plant's machine shop was treated like a gift from god.


WawaWHAT? Cannibals are bad? (What do the cannibals feed their cellar food people?)

I've got that in my Netflix queue, btw. Looking forward to seeing it.

Don't bother.