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Thread: For all its faults, the US Justice System sometimes gets it right!

  1. #1

    Default For all its faults, the US Justice System sometimes gets it right!

    https://wgntv.com/2019/08/13/high-sp...rnee-homicide/

    "CHICAGO — Five teens have been charged with murder after a 14-year-old boy was shot and killed following an attempted auto theft and high-speed chase from rural Lake County to Chicago.

    Authorities said it started around 1 a.m. Tuesday with an attempted auto theft in the small town of Old Mill Creek. A 75-year-old homeowner called police to report the crime in progress. The homeowner also opened fire on the group of individuals — adults and juveniles — who were attempting to steal his vehicle.

    The group fled the scene in a black Lexus SUV that was stolen over the weekend, police said. The offenders stopped near Route 132 and Hunt Club Road in Gurnee and dropped off a 14-year-old, who had a gunshot wound to his head area, and another man. A Gurnee police officer, who was in the area investigating an unrelated crash, began first aid on the 14-year-old and called for an ambulance."

    Step 1: Try to steal a car.
    Step 2: Forget that self-defense is an American right
    Step 3: Have one of your accomplices die from the elderly homeowner defending himself
    Step 4: YOU get charged with MURDER.

    God Bless America. Hopefully these teens get some some life sentences!

  2. #2
    Sorry to ruin your mood, but giving a life sentence to a minor is unconstitutional (according to the Supreme Court).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Sorry to ruin your mood, but giving a life sentence to a minor is unconstitutional (according to the Supreme Court).
    That was a 5-4 ruling, we'll see what happens in the future. In the interim one of the thieves is 18. And I couldn't find a quick answer, is it a life sentence w/o the possibility of parole or all life sentences? It is a minor but important difference.

  4. #4
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    Lewkowski, you really think that life in prison is the only way to deal with theft?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    I'm still baffled that an accomplice dying is felony murder. It is a legal killing after all. If a bystander dies, I understand, but in these cases?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I'm still baffled that an accomplice dying is felony murder. It is a legal killing after all. If a bystander dies, I understand, but in these cases?
    It's just more 'deterrent' that doesn't work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I'm still baffled that an accomplice dying is felony murder. It is a legal killing after all. If a bystander dies, I understand, but in these cases?
    Its a death caused due to a felony. Had they not commited the felony, he would still be alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Lewkowski, you really think that life in prison is the only way to deal with theft?
    I think he would prefer the thieves all got death. It's the Christian thing to do, after all.

    As for the case at hand, based on the limited information in the article, the old man apparently discovered the teens stealing his car and opened fire on them. That isn't self defense, nor is death the penalty for car theft. In the spirit of "people ought to refrain from killing each other unless it's actually necessary," I would say *actual* justice would see the old man being charged at least with manslaughter, along with the 18 year old car thief. A human life is worth much more than a car, even a Lexus, and given the old man's life did not appear to be threatened, there is no just reason for him to kill the car thieves.

    Now, if the kids had car-jacked him, or threatened to kill or injure him, and/or he had no safe place to retreat, that's a different story. But I don't get any hint of those circumstances from reading the quoted article. And even though the kid was breaking the law, and even though its a stupid thing to do all around and he definitely knew better, death for car theft is *not* justice.
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  9. #9
    This thread is another red flag. Someone please confiscate Lewk's guns.
    .

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    I think he would prefer the thieves all got death. It's the Christian thing to do, after all.

    As for the case at hand, based on the limited information in the article, the old man apparently discovered the teens stealing his car and opened fire on them. That isn't self defense, nor is death the penalty for car theft. In the spirit of "people ought to refrain from killing each other unless it's actually necessary," I would say *actual* justice would see the old man being charged at least with manslaughter, along with the 18 year old car thief. A human life is worth much more than a car, even a Lexus, and given the old man's life did not appear to be threatened, there is no just reason for him to kill the car thieves.

    Now, if the kids had car-jacked him, or threatened to kill or injure him, and/or he had no safe place to retreat, that's a different story. But I don't get any hint of those circumstances from reading the quoted article. And even though the kid was breaking the law, and even though its a stupid thing to do all around and he definitely knew better, death for car theft is *not* justice.
    1. A man has a right to defend his property.
    2. According to the homeowner the teens approached him after he confronted them. They sought to do him harm after coming on his property, this is self defense. Chicago is a liberal city, if it wasn't clear cut self-defense they would have tried to arrest him.

  11. #11
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Its a death caused due to a felony. Had they not commited the felony, he would still be alive.
    I know how it works, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. It's not like they committed worse crimes than if the guy had missed.

    Plus in this case you encourage criminals to try to kill the victim, if you're going down for murder anyway, that way you have a better chance to get away with it. Surely that's not the intention.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I know how it works, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. It's not like they committed worse crimes than if the guy had missed.

    Plus in this case you encourage criminals to try to kill the victim, if you're going down for murder anyway, that way you have a better chance to get away with it. Surely that's not the intention.
    Most criminals don't go into an altercation thinking that one of their number is going to die so the logic doesn't hold up.

  13. #13
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Most criminals don't go into an altercation thinking that one of their number is going to die so the logic doesn't hold up.
    In that case as a deterrent it also doesn't hold up.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    1. A man has a right to defend his property.
    It is not remotely reasonable to value property over a human life.
    2. According to the homeowner the teens approached him after he confronted them. They sought to do him harm after coming on his property, this is self defense.
    If that's true, then fair enough.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    It is not remotely reasonable to value property over a human life.
    If you're a scumbag who tries to trash other people's lives, I think it is reasonable to value my property over your life. Especially when my property has my wife and children in it too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you're a scumbag who tries to trash other people's lives, I think it is reasonable to value my property over your life. Especially when my property has my wife and children in it too.
    Ah, Brexit is really a gateway to the real stuff.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you're a scumbag who tries to trash other people's lives, I think it is reasonable to value my property over your life. Especially when my property has my wife and children in it too.
    Ah, Brexit is really a gateway to the real stuff.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you're a scumbag who tries to trash other people's lives, I think it is reasonable to value my property over your life. Especially when my property has my wife and children in it too.
    Fortunately you live in a country with laws that do not value property over life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Ah, Brexit is really a gateway to the real stuff.
    In this case I believe the relationship is the other way around.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you're a scumbag who tries to trash other people's lives, I think it is reasonable to value my property over your life. Especially when my property has my wife and children in it too.
    I have a sneaking suspicion this 75-y-o man's wife and children were not in the car they were in the process of stealing, but sure, froth away.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #21
    Incidentally, are you allowed to say America has many faults, Lewk? Shouldn't you be keeping America great?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I have a sneaking suspicion this 75-y-o man's wife and children were not in the car they were in the process of stealing, but sure, froth away.
    I was responding to the point made not the case in question, nor Lewk's hard on for vigilante violence which outside of Batman comics I've always opposed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #23
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If you're a scumbag who tries to trash other people's lives, I think it is reasonable to value my property over your life. Especially when my property has my wife and children in it too.
    And with that kind of thinking you get laws where if you rape a woman you get two years while if you also stole the tent she was in at the time you get three years.

    Took some time to get those laws sorted. Coincidentally, they entered the German law code in 1933.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #24
    Three years from the robbery from the woman sounds appropriate, two years is nowhere near long enough for rape.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Incidentally, are you allowed to say America has many faults, Lewk? Shouldn't you be keeping America great?
    America has many faults including ridiculous laws against things like drugs and gambling and a ridiculous amount of regulation.

  26. #26
    Another America-hater.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I know how it works, but that doesn't mean it makes sense. It's not like they committed worse crimes than if the guy had missed.

    Plus in this case you encourage criminals to try to kill the victim, if you're going down for murder anyway, that way you have a better chance to get away with it. Surely that's not the intention.
    And Lewk will actually applaud this but it also provides a perverse incentive to use lethal force AGAINST anyone committing a crime, no matter how non-violent, to increase their potential sentences.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    And Lewk will actually applaud this but it also provides a perverse incentive to use lethal force AGAINST anyone committing a crime, no matter how non-violent, to increase their potential sentences.
    Despite this probably being true, it's actually not a very convincing argument; because it already works for violent crimes like rape and sex with children.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I was responding to the point made not the case in question, nor Lewk's hard on for vigilante violence which outside of Batman comics I've always opposed.
    You made a straw man then attacked it. Well done. Property shouldn't be valued more than a human life.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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