Idiots fall for it. Fucking idiots. Some of whom are, unbelievably, elected to congress by their idiot constituents
Idiots fall for it. Fucking idiots. Some of whom are, unbelievably, elected to congress by their idiot constituents
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Or maybe those constituents are too busy working several jobs without health insurance (or paid family leave) to follow the facts. So they get their "news" from Fox & Friends or links on Facebook and Twitter that propagate disinformation. Or guys like Lewk prefer to get their "news" in an echo chamber that confirms their beliefs instead of challenging critical thought.
Our internal divisions are growing while authoritarianism gains strength, and Putin smiles because disinformation (propaganda) actually works.
Don't see any indication that uninsured people working two jobs are primarily to blame. Lewk certainly doesn't match that description. Having decent values and a good outlook can help protect against the worst consequences of ignorance, intellectual deficiencies and hardship. These people either lack or have damaged their moral compasses, so there's nothing to compensate for their stupidity. Don't think that would change if they had better jobs and coverage, and suspect many are covered by Medicare anyway.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Going back to the conspiracy theory that Ukraine <not Russia> was behind the 2016 election meddling....isn't this more evidence that Trump's pathological thinking puts the US at risk? And that his (R) sychophants are exacerbating the situation?
I hear a lot about THE DEEP STATE, but those are talking points from conspiracy theorists like Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, or Breitbart News, etc. And quite frankly, they're weirdos that would be on a Venn diagram with Birthers, 9/11 Truthers, anti-vaxxers and Flat Earthers.
When a president buys into this shit, something is very wrong. When he sends his personal lawyer to "investigate" this shit in another country, bypassing normal diplomatic and governmental channels, things have gone way out of control. This is crazy clown, banana republic behavior --- the very thing the US criticizes other countries for doing. What gives?
edit to minx: Lewk, and many others, live in an echo chamber.We try every day to change their minds, using facts, but they won't budge. Trump could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and get away with it (ie not lost a single base voter). WTF?
That's my way of saying "idiot constituents" is too broad a brush.
Last edited by GGT; 09-30-2019 at 08:57 PM.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Waiting for the Saudi Arabia connection.....
At this point, anyone who supports Trump must realize that they are destroying the rule of law in this country. Disgraceful.
Hope is the denial of reality
You'd need to understand the rule of law.Originally Posted by Loki
Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?
You keep saying that it is inappropriate to ask a foreign government to help in an investigation and yet that's exactly what the Dems did. The office of the presidency runs the Executive Branch of the government. As long as Trump can show he had reasonable suspicion there was some corruption going on with Biden than he's in the clear. The president is the best person to make the request as he is the entity of the American government responsible for diplomacy world wide.
There is a case if Trump asked him to provide fake information. There is a case if Trump legitimately believed there was no corruption. There is no case if Trump believed Biden did something wrong and wanted assistance in uncovering it. Hell its down right patriotic for him to do so!
Secondly - there is no quid pro quo that has been proven. I'd ask you to be specific with exactly what the deal you think was being made here. Then we can take a look at what actually happened and see if it makes sense in context. Don't be vague. Be ultra specific here.
Third - have you ever heard Trump talk? He repeats himself constantly. Also you are now completely discounting anything Ukraine can say in defense of the discussion by painting such a ludicrous situation with your fart example. What Ukraine has to say about it matters.
And lastly, are you suggesting the Senate is the body responsible to pressure foreign governments to lend aid in an investigation of their political rivals? You can't have it both way on this.
I agree that too many people live in echo chambers these days. But I assure you merely by posting on this board I have demonstrated that I don't.Going back to the conspiracy theory that Ukraine <not Russia> was behind the 2016 election meddling....isn't this more evidence that Trump's pathological thinking puts the US at risk? And that his (R) sychophants are exacerbating the situation?
I hear a lot about THE DEEP STATE, but those are talking points from conspiracy theorists like Steve Bannon, Stephen Miller, or Breitbart News, etc. And quite frankly, they're weirdos that would be on a Venn diagram with Birthers, 9/11 Truthers, anti-vaxxers and Flat Earthers.
When a president buys into this shit, something is very wrong. When he sends his personal lawyer to "investigate" this shit in another country, bypassing normal diplomatic and governmental channels, things have gone way out of control. This is crazy clown, banana republic behavior --- the very thing the US criticizes other countries for doing. What gives?
edit to minx: Lewk, and many others, live in an echo chamber.
That's my way of saying "idiot constituents" is too broad a brush.
Hyperbole 9000! But man I could of sworn you said something like that during the bogus Russian collusion "scandal" too.
No, you conniving little weasel. What I keep saying is that it is corrupt for the President to abuse the power of his office by pressuring a foreign govt.--by withholding already authorized aid--to open an investigation (that by all accounts appears to be unwarranted) of a political opponent's son, for personal gain in an upcoming election, using his personal lawyer as liaison, in contravention of US election finance laws.
No, you'd have to be pretty fucking stupid to believe that this is what Democratic senators did. The senators publicly asked Ukrainian officials to resume their up to that point very fruitful cooperation with a prosecutor that had been appointed by the Senate to investigate a matter of national security. It was not covert. Senators belonging to the minority party have no authority even remotely close to that of the President--esp. not a President that has shown himself willing to corruptly wield his power for personal gain. They were trying to facilitate the work of a prosecutor the Senate had appointed, in response to signs that the investigation was being obstructed out of concern for the President's disapproval. Senate business, not personal business, involving national security rather than personal electoral advantages. What you're saying is akin to arguing that bribery involving public officials must be okay because it's generally okay to pay people for services. Your argument is stupid.and yet that's exactly what the Dems did.
That authority has clear limits, one of them being the corrupt abuse of presidential authority over the executive branch in furtherance of personal interests. What you're fapping over is a banana-republic or an old-school monarchy. In a modern, functioning republic, the President doesn't corruptly use govt. officials as his personal henchmen--or public funds as bribes--for personal benefit. If the DOJ had reasonable suspicion of a crime that was within their mandate to investigate, and that required the assistance of Ukrainian officials, it would be appropriate for them to coordinate their efforts with said Ukrainian officials - but not to involve the President when the subject of investigation is related to a direct political threat to the President, or to participate in a corrupt scheme involving the withholding of already authorized aid.The office of the presidency runs the Executive Branch of the government.
That is incorrect. Notwithstanding the fact that he cannot show any reasonable grounds for such suspicion, it is nevertheless corrupt for him to pressure a foreign govt.--using the authority of his office and the threat of withholding vast sums of money--to help his electoral prospects. He's exploiting the advantages of his public office to further entirely personal interests. This is the very essence of corruption.As long as Trump can show he had reasonable suspicion there was some corruption going on with Biden than he's in the clear.
[...]
There is a case if Trump asked him to provide fake information. There is a case if Trump legitimately believed there was no corruption. There is no case if Trump believed Biden did something wrong and wanted assistance in uncovering it. Hell its down right patriotic for him to do so!
Irrelevant because this is not diplomacy, it's personal business.The president is the best person to make the request as he is the entity of the American government responsible for diplomacy world wide.
Trump directly coupled the already-authorized aid that he had inexplicably withheld with the request to investigate the Bidens.Secondly - there is no quid pro quo that has been proven. I'd ask you to be specific with exactly what the deal you think was being made here. Then we can take a look at what actually happened and see if it makes sense in context. Don't be vague. Be ultra specific here.
This is irrelevant. Trump's speaking habits are irrelevant to the issue of pressure. He repeats himself to exert pressure and to make it very clear what it is he wants--it is incriminating, not exculpatory. Even if that hadn't been the case, and even if he hadn't made his corrupt wishes very clear in the phone call in question, the pressure is inherent to any request from POTUS, and it is amplified--corruptly--by the withholding of aid. Moreover, the level of pressure exerted is apparent in the amount of effort that Trump--through Giuliani--appeared to have put into hassling Ukrainian officials over the preceding months, in preparation for the incriminating phone-call.Third - have you ever heard Trump talk? He repeats himself constantly.
What matters is what we can discern of Ukrainian officials' impression of these events at the time they happened, eg. through investigation of contemporaneous communications & memos. So long as Trump can punish Ukraine for selling him out, and so long as Ukraine is led by a person directly involved in the matter who would suffer extraordinary humiliation if he were to confess his subservience to Trump, that person's current assurances that he wasn't pressured have no evidentiary value. In this case, they are also not necessary: it's unimportant whether or not the Ukrainians "felt" pressured--it's only relevant whether or not Trump attempted to corruptly exert pressure.Also you are now completely discounting anything Ukraine can say in defense of the discussion by painting such a ludicrous situation with your fart example. What Ukraine has to say about it matters.
No you halfwit, I'm saying that the Senate is entirely within its rights to facilitate the work of a prosecutor appointed by the Senate, conducting the business of the Senate, on behalf of the Senate and the republic, in the interest of national security--esp. when that prosecutor's investigation is being obstructed by a subject of his investigation. Now, I'm sure you were really upset when Republican Senators directly sabotaged Obama's foreign policy through their intervention during the JCPOA negotiations, but it really isn't relevant how you feel about this. Senators are entitled to use their authority legitimately on legitimate matters. The President is not entitled to use his authority illegitimately on illegitimate matters.And lastly, are you suggesting the Senate is the body responsible to pressure foreign governments to lend aid in an investigation of their political rivals? You can't have it both way on this.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Looks like the key points of contention are:
1. Was there grounds for Trump to believe Biden did something corrupt. If you believe the answer is no I can see why you believe there is a case. However I don't understand how you don't believe there are grounds when there is no point in employing Hunter Biden if the company didn't think it would lend them an unfair advantage. Dude is a drug addicted loser with no experience in the Ukraine.
2. "Trump directly coupled the already-authorized aid that he had inexplicably withheld with the request to investigate the Bidens." This is fiction and an absurd reading of the transcript.
No, it is the most plausible reading of the memo. Prosecutors have effectively used even less explicit statements in bribery cases. The transcript clearly shows trump linking the missiles with the "favor" he's pressuring the Ukrainian president to do for him. It is so obvious that the exact wording worried even a dimwitted Trump-sycophant like McCarthy.
As for Biden, there is no legitimate reason for Trump to use his personal lawyer and the DOJ—as well as the witholding of aid—to pressure another govt to open an unwarranted investigation. Law enforcement in the US and Ukraine should've sorted it out between themselves without Trump's involvement. The reality is that the Ukrainians had dealt with the Burisma affair and found no reason to investigate Hunter Biden—let alone his father.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Daily life must be a real fucking struggle for you if you can't recognize someone asking you for a favour directly after you ask them to do something as them saying they won't do the former unless you do the latter.Zelenskiy: I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.
Trump: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
[COMPUTER GUY] "Can I borrows your lawn mower?"
[NEIGHBOR] "I need you to do me a favour though, my email's been acting up"
Question for Trump Morons (that's right, both of you). In this example, is neighbor saying he'll lend computer guy his lawn mower if computer guy fixes the neighbors e-mail or is the neighbor, e.g. ignoring the request and starting a completely new topic?
If only there were some word in that sentence (that rhymes with dough) that shows us that the second sentence is a direct follow up to the first one!
Last edited by Steely Glint; 10-01-2019 at 05:41 PM.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
Hey Lewk, you like living right? That's something you want to keep on doing? Are you fond of the continued existence of your limbs and their connection to the rest of your body? Could you do me a favor and wire the full contents of your bank account to me?
What's absurd is that you think that the paragraph above wasn't threatening you into sending me money. It'd be even more absurd if I had also just officially cancelled my promise not to carve out your organs for sale on the black market right before that conversation happened. Stop pretending everybody is too stupid to understand implied threats.
The only plausible defense I could see would be to claim that Trump is so stupid that he had no idea what he was saying. That he was too incompetent to understand his own words and actions as everybody else would. But while that could fly in a criminal case, that won't happen until after he's removed from office, and would still be a solid reason to get rid of him. It's too dangerous to leave him in office.
I'd argue it's not even implied, "I need a favour, though" is just a standard conversational way of asking someone to do something for you in exchange for whatever they just asked. I wouldn't use it because it's a bit arsey and passive-aggressive, but Trump's a dick so it checks out.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
"Implied" only by technicality, and that seems to be Lewk's entire argument - "It's okay because he didn't say it directly, there's that tiny smidgen of indirectness that you might need a microscope to see. So that makes it okay."
Have y'all actually read the transcript?
Here I'll put out there for you because the nonsense y'all are reading into is hogwash. There were no threats, no demands.
The President: Congratulations on a great victory. We all watched from the United States and you did a terrific job. The way you came from behind, somebody who wasn't given much of a chance, and you ended up winning easily. It's a fantastic achievement. Congratulations.
President Zelenskyy: You are absolutely right Mr. President. We did win big and we worked hard for this. We worked a lot but I would like to confess to you that I had an opportunity to learn from you. We used quite a few of your skills and knowledge and were able to use it as an example for our elections and yes it is true that these were unique elections. We were in a unique situation that we were able to achieve a unique success. I'm able to tell you the following; the first time you called me to congratulate me when I won my presidential election, and the second time you are now calling me when my party won the parliamentary election. I think I should run more often so you can call me more often and we can talk over the phone more often.
The President: (laughter) That's a very good idea. I think your country is very happy about that.
President Zelenskyy: Well yes, to tell you the truth, we are trying to work hard because we wanted to drain the swamp here in our country. We brought in many many new people. Not the old politicians, not the typical politicians, because we want to have a new format and a new type of government. You are a great teacher for us and in that.
The President: Well it is very nice of you to say that. I will say that we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time. Much more than the European countries are doing and they should be helping you more than they are. Germany does almost nothing for you. All they do is talk and I think it's something that you should really ask them about. When I was speaking to Angela Merkel she talks Ukraine, but she ·doesn't do anything. A lot of the European countries are the same way so I think it's something you want to look at but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say that it's reciprocal necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very very good to Ukraine.
President Zelenskyy: Yes you are absolutely right. Not only 100%, but actually 1000% and I can tell you the following; I did talk to Angela Merkel and I did meet with her I also met and talked with Macron and I told them that they are not doing quite as much as they need to be doing on the issues with the sanctions. They are not enforcing the sanctions. They are not working as much as they should work for Ukraine. It turns out that even though logically, the European Union should be our biggest partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner than the European Union and I'm very grateful to you for that because the United States is doing quite a lot for Ukraine. Much more than the European Union especially when we are talking about sanctions against the Russian Federation. I would also like to thank you for your great support in the area of defense. We are ready to continue to cooperate for the next steps specifically we are almost. ready to buy more Javelins from the United States for defense purposes.
The President: I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it. There are a lot of things that went on, the whole situation. I think you're surrounding yourself with some of the same people. I would like to have the Attorney General call you or your people and I would like you to get to the bottom of it. As you saw yesterday, that whole nonsense ended with a very poor performance by a man named Robert Mueller, an incompetent performance, but they say a lot of it started with Ukraine. Whatever you can do, it's very important that you do it if that's possible.
President Zelenskyy: Yes it is very important for me and everything that you just mentioned earlier. For me as a President, it is very important and we are open for any future cooperation. We are ready to open a new page on cooperation in relations between the United States and Ukraine. For that purpose, I just recalled our ambassador from United States and he will be replaced by a very competent and very experienced ambassador who will work hard on making sure that our two nations are getting closer. I would also like and hope to see him having your trust and your confidence and have personal relations with you so we can cooperate even more so. I will personally tell you that one of my assistants spoke with Mr. Giuliani just recently and we are hoping very much that Mr. Giuliani will be able to travel to Ukraine and we will meet once he comes to Ukraine. I just wanted to assure you once again that you have nobody but friends around us. I will make sure that I surround myself with the best and most experienced people. I also wanted to tell you that we are friends. We are great friends and you Mr. President have friends in our country so we can continue our strategic partnership. I also plan to surround myself with great people and in addition to that investigation, I guarantee as the President of Ukraine that all the investigations will be done openly and candidly.. That I can assure you.
The President: Good because I heard you had a prosecutor who was very good and he was shut down and that's really unfair. A lot of people are talking about that, the way they shut your very good prosecutor down and you had some very bad people involved. Mr. Giuliani is a highly respected man. He was the mayor of New York City, a great mayor, and I would like him to call you. I will ask him to call you along with the Attorney General. Rudy very much knows what's happening and he is a very capable guy. If you could speak to him that would be great. The former ambassador from the United States, the woman, was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the Ukraine were bad news so I just want to let you know that. The other thing, There's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great. Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it... It sounds horrible to me.
President Zelenskyy: I wanted to tell you about the prosecutor. First of all, I understand and I'm knowledgeable about the situation. Since we have won the absolute majority in our Parliament, the next prosecutor general will be 100% my person, my candidate, who will be approved, by the parliament and will start as a new prosecutor in September. He or she will look into the situation, specifically to the company that you mentioned in this issue. The issue of the investigation of the case is actually the issue of making sure to restore the honesty so we will take care of that and will work on the investigation of the case. On top of that, I would kindly ask you if you have any additional information that you can provide to us, it would be very helpful for the investigation to make sure that we administer justice in our country with regard to the Ambassador to the United States from Ukraine as far as I recall her name was Ivanovich. It was great that you were the first one who told me that she was a bad ambassador because I agree with you 100%. Her attitude towards me was far from the best as she admired the previous President and she was on his side. She would not accept me as a new President well enough.
The President: Well, she's going to go through some things. I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call and I am also going to have Attorney General Barr call and we will get to the bottom of it. I'm sure you will figure it out. I heard the prosecutor was treated very badly and he was a very fair prosecutor so good luck with everything. Your economy is going to get better and better I predict. You have a lot of assets. It's a great country. I have many Ukrainian friends, their incredible people.
President Zelenskyy: I would like to tell you that I also have quite a few Ukrainian friends that live in the United States. Actually last time I traveled to the United States, I stayed in New York near Central Park and I stayed at the Trump Tower. I will talk to them and I hope to see them again in the future. I also wanted to thank you for your invitation to visit the United States, specifically Washington DC. On the other hand, I also want to ensure you that we will be very serious about the case and will work on the investigation. As to the economy, there is much potential for our two countries and one of the issues that is very important for Ukraine is energy independence. I believe we can be very successful and cooperating on energy independence with United States. We are already working on cooperation. We are buying American oil but I am very hopeful for a future meeting. We will have more time and more opportunities to discuss these opportunities and get to know each other better. I would like to thank you very much for your support.
The President: Good. Well, thank you very much and I appreciate that. I will tell Rudy and Attorney General Barr to call. Thank you. Whenever you would like to come to the White House, feel free to call. Give us a date and we'll work that out. I look forward to seeing you.
President Zelenskyy: Thank you very much. I would be very happy to come and would be happy to meet with you personally and get to know you better. I am looking forward to our meeting and I also would like to invite you to visit Ukraine and come to the city of Kyiv which is a beautiful city. We have a beautiful country which would welcome you. On the other hand, I believe that on September 1 we will be in Poland and we can meet in Poland hopefully. After that, it might be a very good idea for you to travel to Ukraine. We can either take my plane and go to Ukraine or we can take your plane, which is probably much better than mine.
The President: Okay, we can work that out. I look forward to seeing you in Washington and maybe in Poland because I think we are going to be there at that time.
President Zelenskyy: Thank you very much Mr. President.
The President: Congratulations on a fantastic job you've done. The whole world was watching. I'm not sure it was so much of an upset but congratulations.
President Zelenskyy: Thank you Mr. President bye-bye.
Frankly, this is a non-issue. It doesn't matter whether there was a threat. It doesn't matter if there was quid pro quo. Trump asked a foreign government to investigate his political opponent. That is disqualifying for high office. The fact he made similar demands of other countries makes it doubly so.
Hope is the denial of reality
The Democrats in the senate did the same thing.
My god, it's like speaking to a particularly difficult toddler.
He said in the fucking thing you posted he wanted a favor done in exchange for the aid, which is exactly the same as it was in the bit of it I quoted. Posting the full thing doesn't suddenly make that part of it vanish.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
I don't get how you don't understand the exchange. It is clearly two world leaders circle jerking about how great friends they are. Just a note when someone is saying they are buying shit from you that is not a favor from them that is a favor they are doing to you. The simplest and most basic exchange going on here is this:
"Hey congrats you are cool."
"No bro you are cool."
"Hey since we are cool can you look into that server thing and the bad stuff those un-cool previous guys did?"
"Yeah bro we are cool, can do!"
That's it.
Democratic senators asked a foreign country to investigate their political opponents?The Democrats in the senate did the same thing.
Hope is the denial of reality
You don't seem to understand how US military aid works, or perhaps you do but are feigning ignorance because you think you're being clever.
The US gives the target country a sum of money, the target country then goes and buys a bunch of hardware from the relevant defense contractor using that money. That's what he means when he's talking about buying javelins. The money is what he means when he says 'great support in the area of defense'. Trump them tells him he needs a favor first, which is the investigation of a political opponent. This is Trump using the power of his office to get dirt on a political opponent which a massive abuse of power and an impeachable offense. Another one, I mean.
Sticking your fingers in your ears and pretending you don't know what words mean isn't going to change that. Rewording the transcript to say something different isn't going to change that.
When the sky above us fell
We descended into hell
Into kingdom come
So these Russian conversations that Congress is now after: What are the odds for one of them featuring Putin advising Trump to withhold military aid from Ukraine until theyfabricatefind some dirt he can use on Biden, and is anyone here a bookie?
I addressed this above. For some reason grandpa just doesn't seem to get it.Democratic senators asked a foreign country to investigate their political opponents?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Hard to say. Much of the prep is done by intermediaries, through back channels. In addition, there are the physical meetings, from which there may not be any official notes (which is of course concerning in and of itself).
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Of course Pence was involved: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...2d2_story.html
As if his weird behavior in the recent meeting with the Ukrainian president didn't give it away.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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