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Thread: The cover-up is always dumber than the crime

  1. #1

    Default The cover-up is always dumber than the crime

    Trump is alleged to have made some promise, to an unnamed foreign leader, that was so disturbing that it 1. prompted a member of the intelligence community to file a whistleblower report that the intelligence community's IG found to be a credible report on an urgent matter and 2. that the Trump admin appears to have tried to cover up, by refusing to notify congressional intelligence committees about the complaint and forwarding it in full.

    WaPo story (since corroborated by NBC reporter): https://www.washingtonpost.com/natio...476_story.html

    Vox summary: https://www.vox.com/2019/9/18/208727...f-intelligence

    JustSecurity discussion arguing that the attempted cover-up is illegal: https://www.nationalsecuritylawpodca...eeds-a-reboot/

    Not long ago, reports emerged of a phone call between Trump and a senior Chinese official, in which he was reported to have promised Xi Jinping the US would not condemn China in the event of a violent crackdown on protests in Hong Kong: https://www.politico.com/story/2019/...esters-1463605

    This story was promptly drowned out by the deluge of asinine reporting on the Greenland story. If the whistleblower report is about an unrelated matter (which is likely - former insiders are speculating that it would have to be about something outright illegal or so grossly outrageous that it cannot be kept hidden, for the ICIG to make the determination he made), you've gotta wonder how many foreign leaders POTUS has been going around making dodgy promises to. Genuinely concerning that the president would engage in such dodgy conduct, and that an American administration would go to such great lengths to cover it up.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #2
    This one's building up steam. I have to wonder how bad something has to be before somebody finally check's this asshole.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  3. #3
    It sounds like it's probably about Trump telling Ukraine he was going to withhold military aid until they smeared Joe Biden.

  4. #4
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #5
    So - and I'm not saying this is actually what's going on because it's not - but if Trump was actually trying to get get impeached, what would he be doing differently?
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  6. #6
    He'd switch to D.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #7
    Impeachment is starting to look like it has a chance of actually happening, and I hope to god they move fast, because I'm a little nervous about what will happen if Trump is still in office when he loses the election next year. I don't want Trump to have a lame duck period, because I don't think his ego will allow him to go quietly.

  8. #8
    office when he loses the election next year
    If
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  9. #9

  10. #10
    First, I heard that he couldn't possibly win the nomination.
    Then, I heard that he would never be elected.
    Then I was told, just wait for Mueller.
    Then it was Pelosi is playing 8d chess and will impeach him.
    And now I'm hearing it's impossible for him to win in 2020.

    What will come after that, I wonder? More false hopes of impeachment? The 25th amendment? 'His terms nearly up now anyway'?
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Impeachment is starting to look like it has a chance of actually happening, and I hope to god they move fast, because I'm a little nervous about what will happen if Trump is still in office when he loses the election next year. I don't want Trump to have a lame duck period, because I don't think his ego will allow him to go quietly.
    Impeachment isn't happening lol

  12. #12
    It's "when" because I'm not getting through the next 14 months any other way.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Impeachment isn't happening lol
    It's interesting how little you care about your laws or indeed about the security of your nation's most important institutions.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #14
    So...Joe Biden's son has made a living doing some kind of vague political "consulting" that has made him pretty wealthy. He has continued doing this for years despite well-documented struggles with alcoholism, cocaine and some history of just sorta vanishing. I've never seen anyone describe Joe Biden's son as particularly talented, but I could be wrong.

    Trump pushes Ukraine to investigate whether Joe Biden's son's political consulting in Ukraine is problematic. This has obvious political ramifications, but then again so does investigating Paul Manafort's political work in the Ukraine. Then again, it was a good thing we dug into that work because it revealed spectacular amounts of tax evasion.

    Are we really at the place where pushing for the accumulation of dirt is somehow a crime?

  15. #15
    The story is that Trump may have been pressuring Ukraine by using monetary and military support as leverage. This concern was previously raised when Ukraine suddenly stopped cooperating with the Mueller investigation in order to avoid angering Trump. Whatever the case may be, the ICIG made a determination that the conduct described by the whistle-blower was a serious and urgent matter that, under the circumstances, strongly raises the suspicion of criminality—a senior intelligence officer is unlikely to have made such a complaint about Trump doing something that is within his powers.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    First, I heard that he couldn't possibly win the nomination.
    Then, I heard that he would never be elected.
    Then I was told, just wait for Mueller.
    Then it was Pelosi is playing 8d chess and will impeach him.
    And now I'm hearing it's impossible for him to win in 2020.

    What will come after that, I wonder? More false hopes of impeachment? The 25th amendment? 'His terms nearly up now anyway'?
    It's impossible for him to win a third term.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    It's "when" because I'm not getting through the next 14 months any other way.
    That's how they get ya.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Are we really at the place where pushing for the accumulation of dirt is somehow a crime?
    If he wants to accumulate dirt can he do it on his own time, not use the office of president to do it.

    Also, what Minx said.

    Also, just so you know, your attempts to reframe every Trump scandal as a politically motivated nothing burger by finding a different form of words to express them while missing out key bits of context are as transparent as they are pathetic.

    *trump stabs an white house staffer right in the oval office with an official white house pen*

    Dreadnaught: So what you're saying is it's a crime now to hold your own pen and then repeatedly extend and retract your arm in a sowing machine motion? And why is no one talking about how that staffer was left over from the Obama days and was being pretty partisan when he told the president he couldn't dynamite the faces on Mt Rushmore and replace them with with himself, hmm? Why isn't that the story? Methinks some people here, and in the media, might be pretty partisan themselves!

    It's fucking pathetic.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  19. #19
    Dread is becoming a stronger Trump supporter than Lewk.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    It's just one version of natural aging ie. getting old.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    If he wants to accumulate dirt can he do it on his own time, not use the office of president to do it.
    What does that even mean?

    The thing I object to is people acting shocked and horrified when Trump does something not substantially different than someone else, but with less tact. Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. had apparatchiks to do the dirty work. Trump's infrastructure is as shallow and inexperienced as he is. The substance is the same; politicians exerting pressure on a system or individuals for their ends. It's not tasteful, but doesn't seem illegal.

  22. #22
    "If the prosecutor's not fired, you aren't getting the money."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXA--dj2-CY

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    What does that even mean?
    If you don't understand the difference between Trump as an individual and Trump carrying out his duties as POTUS then I don't know what to say to you.

    The thing I object to is people acting shocked and horrified when Trump does something not substantially different than someone else, but with less tact.
    I see you are still attempting continue this conversation as if we haven't notice you're ignoring the main part of the story which is that Trump made some kind of promise involving US foreign policy to the Ukraine in exchange for digging up dirt on Biden and this a massive abuse of power of his office, even though this was noticed pretty much immediately, and commented upon by several people.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  24. #24
    The US released $250M in aid to Ukraine two weeks ago, despite Trump's musing about corruption there. This is in addition to previous aid sent such as lethal weapons to ward off Russia, which Obama never sent at the height of the Crimea crisis.

    As the title suggests, the cover up is worse than the crime though I'm unclear if there's even a cover up here.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The US released $250M in aid to Ukraine two weeks ago, despite Trump's musing about corruption there.
    3 days after congress opened an investigation. If Trump was doing what he's been accused of doing, the fact that he stopped doing it after people noticed and started investigating him does not in fact make him innocent.

    This is in addition to previous aid sent such as lethal weapons to ward off Russia, which Obama never sent at the height of the Crimea crisis.
    What the hell does this have to do with anything?

    As the title suggests, the cover up is worse than the crime though I'm unclear if there's even a cover up here.
    I like how you say "I'm unclear if there's even a cover up here" as if you're actually here to have an honest discussion and figure out what's going on.

    Why you bother with this kindergarten level attempts at spin on this forum is beyond me: literally no one's convinced, it never results in good discussion, the audience of this place is tiny and no one here is important enough to be worth lying to and in any case everyone is basically anonymous. So why do you do it? Practice?
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  26. #26
    I've been wondering the same thing.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The US released $250M in aid to Ukraine two weeks ago, despite Trump's musing about corruption there. This is in addition to previous aid sent such as lethal weapons to ward off Russia, which Obama never sent at the height of the Crimea crisis.
    Important detail you've missed there that there is reasonable suspicion that Ukraine, at least, believed—for whatever reason—that approval of that sale (which the Trump admin may have been less than keen on initially) was contingent on not facilitating the Manafort investigation:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/02/w...-missiles.html

    https://www.vox.com/2018/5/2/1731119...nafort-javelin

    The Obama admin supported Ukraine with extensive assistance in the form of training etc. Their reasonable hope was that this would be a way to give meaningful support without provoking a military escalation. The missile sales are meaningless from an operational perspective, and from a signaling perspective they may not send the best signals. Agree or disagree with that analysis, at least Obama didn't say things that suggested the annexation may have been legitimate.

    As the title suggests, the cover up is worse than the crime though I'm unclear if there's even a cover up here.
    If the admin or its officials attempted to stop the report from getting to congressional intelligence committees, then the allegation of a cover-up is absolutely valid, irrespective of whether or not a crime was committed. It seems implausible that a senior intelligence officer and the ICIG would find the investigation of whatever trump said to be urgent if it were clearly within his authority.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The thing I object to is people acting shocked and horrified when Trump does something not substantially different than someone else, but with less tact. Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc. had apparatchiks to do the dirty work. Trump's infrastructure is as shallow and inexperienced as he is.
    When Biden threatened to withhold aid to Ukraine, it was because they hadn't done enough to curtail their own corruption. Financial Aid (even sanctions) always has strings attached, that's nothing new -- what's different here is that Trump's actions weren't in our national interest but for his own political future. And it's too late to chalk it up to inexperience post-Mueller report.

    The substance is the same; politicians exerting pressure on a system or individuals for their ends. It's not tasteful, but doesn't seem illegal.
    Wow, you've really accepted the 'normalization' of abnormal/aberrant behavior in the Trump era. You don't care about abuse of power, or growing Executive power, or the breakdown of our governmental institutions?

  29. #29

  30. #30
    Fox News (aka Trump TV) has Nunes saying "maybe the whistleblower isn't a partisan", while Trump says otherwise.

    The biggest concern isn't related to party schism but process failure. We should care about that more than party politicking. And when the GOP tries to fiddle with the process, who wants to be a Republican when that means leaning toward an Imperial Presidency? Explain that, if you can.

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