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Thread: The Impeachment of President Trump

  1. #151
    So first Adam Schiff spent two years telling an eager press there was evidence of conspiracy with the Russian government. When that fizzled, we had a drumbeat about obstruction of justice. Now we have secret panels with no formal impeachment rules trying to pretend there is no political quid pro quo behind diplomacy.

    Damn it's going to be a boring, conspiracy-addled year.

  2. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    So first Adam Schiff spent two years telling an eager press there was evidence of conspiracy with the Russian government. When that fizzled, we had a drumbeat about obstruction of justice. Now we have secret panels with no formal impeachment rules trying to pretend there is no political quid pro quo behind diplomacy.

    Damn it's going to be a boring, conspiracy-addled year.
    Why are you saying dumb things, Dread? Why?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    John Bolton is negotiating to testify in favor of impeachment.

    "You're going to regret not letting me start my wars!"
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  4. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Why are you saying dumb things, Dread? Why?
    NO U

  5. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    NO U
    Dread, it's stupid because the Mueller investigation found—and prosecuted—numerous links between people involved with the Trump campaign and hostile foreign actors, and outlined clear evidence of obstruction of justice on Trump's part. The current situation involves brazenly corrupt conduct that Trump has openly admitted to, that was recognized by numerous officials—both Trump's own political appointees as well as career officials—as being serious matters worthy of investigation, ie. not run of the mill diplomacy but, rather, something out of the ordinary that was deeply concerning. Your asinine remark about "secret panels" is not compelling—it's just stupid, especially in light of the rules established by previous Republican-led panels.

    You're trying to pretend that corruption and criminality are no big deal, but this position is not consistent with US law and the values that have traditionally governed your institutions. Covertly withholding already authorized aid in an attempt to pressure a foreign nation to announce an unjustified investigation targeting a political opponent for the purpose of influencing an American election is just not normal diplomacy—it is corruption and criminality. If you believe otherwise, you're an idiot; if you're just pretending to believe otherwise, you're contemptible. Either way, you have no credibility.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  6. #156
    Hyperbolically interpreting a report doesn't mean you're right. Look at the word salad! Criminality, corruption, hostile foreign actors...the same words people I heard all around me at protests on the day after his inauguration. Reading the same op-eds over and over doesn't give you (or anyone) credibility.

    I will certainly transmit this to Vladimir.

  7. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Hyperbolically interpreting a report doesn't mean you're right.
    You're correct. The expert analysis of federal prosecutors and jurists—as well as Mueller's own testimony—means I'm right. Had Trump not been the president, his conduct would've resulted in charges for obstruction of justice. In addition to this, the team's investigation did in fact lead to dozens of indictments, many of them on the basis of criminal activity by all appearances conducted at the behest of at least one hostile foreign nation, with the most prominent subject being famously involved with the Trump campaign. That is not a matter of opinion—these are objectively the outcomes of the investigation.

    Look at the word salad! Criminality, corruption, hostile foreign actors...the same words people I heard all around me at protests on the day after his inauguration. Reading the same op-eds over and over doesn't give you (or anyone) credibility.
    I'm sorry Kellydread, I understand that this sort of asinine spin may be hot shit in some other context of your personal life, but, here, it is difficult for me to regard it as anything but a steaming pile of bullshit. If a person commits three different crimes, it is appropriate to describe three different crimes—both when he commits them, and at any time thereafter. A crime doesn't stop being a crime after a magic number of op-eds have been written about it; gross misconduct doesn't become appropriate after it's been committed a particular number of times; hostile nations don't become friendly just because people identify them as such a certain number of times.

    That Trump is corrupt is indisputable—he gives us new evidence of his corruption every single day, and he had a long, extremely dubious legal history already at the time his candidacy was announced. That his actions wrt Ukraine are anything but routine diplomacy is shown clearly by the strong, negative reactions from career diplomats, who expressed—and memorialized —their concerns, and have shared those concerns with each other, with lawyers, and, now, with congressmen. But thank you for demonstrating precisely the cognitive fatigue—or deficit—that is routinely exploited to great effect by Putin in Russia, and by Trump in the US. Your idiot-act is incredibly convincing.
    Last edited by Aimless; 10-26-2019 at 10:27 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #158
    Normally coups used to take an armed force and violence.
    These people are showing the world how merely allegations can be used to start a coup while staying immune to sedition charges.
    The world is watching...
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  9. #159
    Lol
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    So first Adam Schiff spent two years telling an eager press there was evidence of conspiracy with the Russian government. When that fizzled, we had a drumbeat about obstruction of justice.
    With plenty of indictments and guilty pleas.

    Mueller's recommendations followed that DoJ internal 'memo' that a sitting president can't be indicted or prosecuted. Trump has surrounded himself with (R) who believe in broad presidential powers, the Unitary Executive Theory, and even that the House and Senate play subordinate roles. It's a Nixonian If the president does something it can't be illegal mentality.

    Now we have secret panels with no formal impeachment rules trying to pretend there is no political quid pro quo behind diplomacy.
    1) They are NOT secret panels but confidential committee hearings -- with participating Republicans who can ask all the questions they want.

    2) There isn't a 'formal' impeachment rule handbook. But the rules they're following were enacted under a (R) majority when Boehner was Speaker of the House. That's why only the majority party has subpoena powers.

    3) Everyone knows politics uses quid pro quos as incentives. But they're supposed to be used for our national interests, and not for any personal political gain, or election advantage.

    4) Diplomacy is supposed to use governmental channels (and people) to conduct foreign policy agendas. Private citizens without security clearance (like Giuliani) shouldn't be working a shadow state dept. scheme, or posing as an official representative of the US gov't.


  11. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post

    3) Everyone knows politics uses quid pro quos as incentives. But they're supposed to be used for our national interests, and not for any personal political gain, or election advantage.
    Stamping out corruption is in the national interest. The idea that Biden's son (a complete fuck up his entire life, please read up on him he can't even stay out of rehab, he's a fucking joke of a character) is earning big $$ sitting on a board of a company based in a country he knows jack and shit about it is A LOT of smoke. Doesn't mean VP Biden was corrupt but it certainly deserves investigating.

  12. #162
    The most immediate and sustained opposition to this corrupt Ukraine business has come from well-regarded career diplomats, who immediately recognized Trump & co's actions as being improper and out of the ordinary. Dread's dumb-as-shit spin about this being regular diplomacy has zero credibility when weighed against their assessments that all of this was highly irregular.
    Last edited by Aimless; 11-02-2019 at 03:46 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Stamping out corruption is in the national interest. The idea that Biden's son (a complete fuck up his entire life, please read up on him he can't even stay out of rehab, he's a fucking joke of a character) is earning big $$ sitting on a board of a company based in a country he knows jack and shit about it is A LOT of smoke. Doesn't mean VP Biden was corrupt but it certainly deserves investigating.
    Stamping out governmental corruption in other countries is part of supporting democracy, yeah that's in our national interest. We want to help a fledgling democracy like Ukraine fight against Russian military land grabs. So where are all the other examples of corruption the Trump administration has been focused on?

    And if you think Ukraine's government is corrupt.....why would you ask them to help root out US gov't corruption? Why the hell would we outsource our domestic investigations to another country anyway?

  14. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The most immediate and sustained opposition to this corrupt Ukraine business has come from well-regarded career diplomats, who immediately recognized Trump & co's actions as being improper and out of the ordinary. Dread's dumb-as-shit spin about this being regular diplomacy has zero credibility when weighted against their assessments that all of this was highly irregular.
    Of course! Bureaucrats are the best because career government officials are never corrupt or inefficient. People talk about term limits for members of congress (good) but I think we need time limits for government officials so that it is impossible for someone to be a lifelong bureaucrat.

  15. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Stamping out governmental corruption in other countries is part of supporting democracy, yeah that's in our national interest. We want to help a fledgling democracy like Ukraine fight against Russian military land grabs. So where are all the other examples of corruption the Trump administration has been focused on?

    And if you think Ukraine's government is corrupt.....why would you ask them to help root out US gov't corruption? Why the hell would we outsource our domestic investigations to another country anyway?
    Because the potential evidence is in Ukraine and at the Ukraine business that employed Hunter druggie Biden. Kinda hard to investigate them from over here. Now if they could turn over the internal documents concerning his recruitment and hiring as well as all internal communication/e-mails that Hunter did while on their BoD we could investigate ourselves but I somehow doubt that will happen. Thus - Ukraine.

  16. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Of course! Bureaucrats are the best because career government officials are never corrupt or inefficient. People talk about term limits for members of congress (good) but I think we need time limits for government officials so that it is impossible for someone to be a lifelong bureaucrat.
    I'm sorry but your entire post is dumb as shit. Experienced career diplomats are experts in diplomacy. When many of them believe that a particular act is improper, it casts doubt on the claim that the act in question is just regular diplomacy. I understand why a dumbass like you would be afraid of expertise and call for its elimination, but, fortunately, you don't run the world—or anything else of any real significance.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Stamping out corruption is in the national interest.
    It is. But you don't stamp out corruption with more corruption, you just replace it. And getting personal electoral favors is BIGGER corruption than ANYTHING you think Biden Jr. might have been up to.

    The idea that Biden's son (a complete fuck up his entire life, please read up on him he can't even stay out of rehab, he's a fucking joke of a character) is earning big $$ sitting on a board of a company based in a country he knows jack and shit about it is A LOT of smoke. Doesn't mean VP Biden was corrupt but it certainly deserves investigating.
    Way less than Trump's daughter and son-in-law being involved in White House policy making.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    It is. But you don't stamp out corruption with more corruption, you just replace it. And getting personal electoral favors is BIGGER corruption than ANYTHING you think Biden Jr. might have been up to.



    Way less than Trump's daughter and son-in-law being involved in White House policy making.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  19. #169
    You know if Trump later brags that he got an Indonesian prosecutor fired after they started investigating his son or his son's business dealings I'll be right there with you!

  20. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You know if Trump later brags that he got an Indonesian prosecutor fired after they started investigating his son or his son's business dealings I'll be right there with you!
    Lewk, you're a stupid man, but, even for a stupid man, it's weird how you keep willingly saying things that show how dumb you are. Go back and reread the previous discussion about Shokin you dumb fuck. Go on. I'll wait for your illiterate ass to catch up.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Of course! Bureaucrats are the best because career government officials are never corrupt or inefficient. People talk about term limits for members of congress (good) but I think we need time limits for government officials so that it is impossible for someone to be a lifelong bureaucrat.
    It wouldn't be "efficient" to replace experienced career diplomats or civil servants every few years. (You do know that police, FBI and CIA are considered civil servants, right?) And it would be wrong to do it just because a new political party wins the presidency -- that's the height of political partisanship/favoritism you'd usually whine about. Besides, you'd be firing people without cause, or because they don't belong to the 'right' political party, and that's illegal.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Because the potential evidence is in Ukraine and at the Ukraine business that employed Hunter druggie Biden. Kinda hard to investigate them from over here. Now if they could turn over the internal documents concerning his recruitment and hiring as well as all internal communication/e-mails that Hunter did while on their BoD we could investigate ourselves but I somehow doubt that will happen. Thus - Ukraine.
    Potential evidence for what crime? Ukraine companies can recruit and hire whomever they want, and install BoD members as they see fit - even if they're under-qualified and overpaid - just like the US does. lol

    If nepotism is the corruption you want "investigated" then look into Ivanka and Jared. They have a direct link to the presidency and policy influence.

    PS the first Ukrainian prosecutor was fired because he wasn't investigating or prosecuting corruption.

  22. #172
    Ahem, what happens if VP Pence is implicated (complicit) in Trump's Abuse of Power? It wouldn't do much good to go thru the impeachment process, convict and remove Trump from office, only to install a corrupt VP in his place. It's just hypothetical....but how would that work in reality?

    Yeah, it's a process question.

  23. #173
    Interesting to compare this to Clinton's impeachment. Back then 100% or the Republicans were on board with impeachment. This time around Democrats had two people who voted no. Earlier Pelosi said they would have articles of Impeachment voted on by Thanksgiving. I'm betting they won't since the entire goal is to influence the election and harm Trump's re-election chances.

  24. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Interesting to compare this to Clinton's impeachment. Back then 100% or the Republicans were on board with impeachment. This time around Democrats had two people who voted no.
    This week's vote was just about procedural rules. They followed the outline Republicans created during Clinton's impeachment process.

    edit: the better question is why would (R) vote NO on procedural rules they created for a (D) president?

    Earlier Pelosi said they would have articles of Impeachment voted on by Thanksgiving. I'm betting they won't since the entire goal is to influence the election and harm Trump's re-election chances.
    Your conflations are astounding and don't make sense. But instead of explaining the Impeachment process to you....I'd rather you explain why you support and defend Trump's actions. Go on, make your case that (R) presidents can do shady shit that (D) presidents shouldn't. I dare ya.
    Last edited by GGT; 11-02-2019 at 02:01 AM.

  25. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post

    Your conflations are astounding and don't make sense. But instead of explaining the Impeachment process to you....I'd rather you explain why you support and defend Trump's actions. Go on, make your case that (R) presidents can do shady shit that (D) presidents shouldn't. I dare ya.
    I generally don't think they should do shady stuff. That goes for Presidents or Vice Presidents. Which is why Trump looking into corruption in the Ukraine was fully appropriate.

  26. #176
    He isn't "looking into corruption"; he is engaging in corruption, you moron.
    Last edited by Aimless; 11-02-2019 at 11:37 AM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #177
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Is this in regards to potential FVEY abuses?

  29. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    I generally don't think they should do shady stuff. That goes for Presidents or Vice Presidents. Which is why Trump looking into corruption in the Ukraine was fully appropriate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    He isn't "looking into corruption"; he is engaging in corruption, you moron.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Is this in regards to potential FVEY abuses?
    No, it's about how inappropriate and downright weird it is that our Attorney General is asking allies to "investigate" a debunked conspiracy theory, in order to delegitimize the Mueller report. Even Pompeo agreed that *Russia* was behind the 2016 election meddling when he was Director of CIA, along with all our other intelligence agencies, and the Five Eyes.


  30. #180
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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