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Thread: UK General Election 12 December

  1. #121
    By all means, enlighten me as to what you think the proposal is.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #122
    The UK pre-HRA always was a signatory to the European Convention of Human Rights Laws and cases could be taken to the European Court of Human Rights. The UK has also always for the military applied the Geneva Conventions. When the HRA was enacted it didn't change the legality the UK's treaty obligations under the ECHR.

    What is being proposed is not as you claim causing a 'direct conflict with the UK's treaty obligations' nor does it 'deny justice & closure to those affected by the crimes being investigated'.

    The HRA was introduced and introduced cases that could be taken into the courts retrospectively, not something that normally occurs. The proposal is that domestic courts will for military cases going forwards apply the HRA from the date it was enacted in law and not retrospectively. The UK's treaty obligations under the ECHR will still apply and cases could still be taken as they always could to the European Court of Human Rights but vexatious cases won't have much luck there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    What utter BS. The UK is treaty-bound, under the ECHR, to thoroughly investigate and punish crimes committed by representatives of the state--such as the ones committed during the Troubles. Altering the HRA in this manner will cause a direct conflict with the UK's treaty obligations--the same obligations the Act is intended to enshrine in domestic UK law--and/or deny justice & closure to those affected by the crimes being investigated.
    ?
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  4. #124
    According the the Observer [Guardian] Jeremy Corbyn once backed a plan to pay ethnic minorities to leave the country
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The UK pre-HRA always was a signatory to the European Convention of Human Rights Laws and cases could be taken to the European Court of Human Rights. The UK has also always for the military applied the Geneva Conventions. When the HRA was enacted it didn't change the legality the UK's treaty obligations under the ECHR.

    What is being proposed is not as you claim causing a 'direct conflict with the UK's treaty obligations' nor does it 'deny justice & closure to those affected by the crimes being investigated'.

    The HRA was introduced and introduced cases that could be taken into the courts retrospectively, not something that normally occurs. The proposal is that domestic courts will for military cases going forwards apply the HRA from the date it was enacted in law and not retrospectively. The UK's treaty obligations under the ECHR will still apply and cases could still be taken as they always could to the European Court of Human Rights but vexatious cases won't have much luck there.
    The state has an obligation, under the ECHR, to effectively investigate cases of suspected violations - by representatives of the state - of the right to life guaranteed by the ECHR. The proposed change to the HRA has the express intent of preventing investigations/inquests into such violations, committed by British soldiers in NI.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  6. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    According the the Observer [Guardian] Jeremy Corbyn once backed a plan to pay ethnic minorities to leave the country
    What a dummy! Didn't he know you can just drive them into destitution and then deport them (unless they die)??? But that's commies for you, always happy to give away other people's money. Should obviously be disqualifying.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The state has an obligation, under the ECHR, to effectively investigate cases of suspected violations - by representatives of the state - of the right to life guaranteed by the ECHR. The proposed change to the HRA has the express intent of preventing investigations/inquests into such violations, committed by British soldiers in NI.
    If the new law is incompatible with the ECHR, which I doubt though you seem to be a world renowned international law expert now, then the European Court of Human Rights can rule on that.

    The HRA didn't exist for decades of us being signed up to the ECHR and amending the HRA will not violate the ECHR which we will still be subject to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #128
    Amusing that Boris Johnson seems to be more trusting of "ex"-KGB agents than is Corbyn.

    https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...er-nato-summit
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #129
    You mean a liberal media mogul who owns 4 British papers? Geez why would an aspiring politician want to meet a media mogul?

    Here is an interview with him by that infamous doyenne of the hard right, the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...xander-lebedev in which the Guardian calls him a vigorous critic of Russia's government.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #130
    Let us not forget Corbyn has a lifetime of siding with the Russian government including when he was leader of the party and Putin literally had opponents murdered on the streets of Salisbury and murdered Brits in Salisbury as collateral damage. But sure Johnson has met a critic of the Russian government that is accepted as a legitimate media mogul in this country. Media mogul or murder of British citizens on British soil in Salisbury?

    You have totally jumped the shark now.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    You mean a liberal media mogul who owns 4 British papers? Geez why would an aspiring politician want to meet a media mogul?

    Here is an interview with him by that infamous doyenne of the hard right, the Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/media/20...xander-lebedev in which the Guardian calls him a vigorous critic of Russia's government.
    He was a critic of Putin in 2013. He was not by 2015. In fact, he actively lobbied on Putin's behalf over Crimea. Do tell why Johnson would want to see him numerous times without his security detail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...utin-ldw7qjh95
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    He was a critic of Putin in 2013. He was not by 2015. In fact, he actively lobbied on Putin's behalf over Crimea. Do tell why Johnson would want to see him numerous times without his security detail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/t...utin-ldw7qjh95
    I don't have a Times subscription so can't read behind the paywall.

    I'd assume he'd want to meet a media mogul for the same reason any other politician would. He likes to see people face-to-face as do many other leaders like the Irish Taoiseach, they sorted out Brexit when it was considered impossible by many to satisfy the Tories and Irish at the same time via a face-to-face meeting without aides for either side.

    Would you be saying the same thing if he'd had a meeting with Rupert Murdoch?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If the new law is incompatible with the ECHR, which I doubt though you seem to be a world renowned international law expert now, then the European Court of Human Rights can rule on that.

    The HRA didn't exist for decades of us being signed up to the ECHR and amending the HRA will not violate the ECHR which we will still be subject to.
    If you end the investigations, the ECtHR will bounce back any of those cases that end up in Strasbourg, and/or find that the UK has breached its obligation to effectively investigate potentially illegal killings by representatives of the state. The decision to change the act has been directly linked to ending the inquest and all investigations into killings in NI, by British soldiers.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Let us not forget Corbyn has a lifetime of siding with the Russian government including when he was leader of the party and Putin literally had opponents murdered on the streets of Salisbury and murdered Brits in Salisbury as collateral damage. But sure Johnson has met a critic of the Russian government that is accepted as a legitimate media mogul in this country. Media mogul or murder of British citizens on British soil in Salisbury?

    You have totally jumped the shark now.
    Johnson ditched his security detail to meet with a man who is a friend of Putin, shortly after Russian agents had attacked people on British soil, killing at least one. That his papers criticize the Russian govt. it's inconsequential; he has been careful not to criticize Putin, has been an ardent supporter of Russia's actions in Ukraine, and conducts business in Russia that would be nigh impossible without being on Putin's good side. In light of Johnson's extremely irresponsible—and suspicious—decision to block the Commons report on Russian intelligence operations targeting the UK, this meeting just looks dodgy a f.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #135
    Lol, Tories just don't know how to not lie:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    If you end the investigations, the ECtHR will bounce back any of those cases that end up in Strasbourg, and/or find that the UK has breached its obligation to effectively investigate potentially illegal killings by representatives of the state. The decision to change the act has been directly linked to ending the inquest and all investigations into killings in NI, by British soldiers.
    If the ECtHR determines that then we would have to honour the ECtHR's decision but it hasn't determined that and you claiming that is just bullshit. The HRA is not required for either the ECtHR or ECHR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Lol, Tories just don't know how to not lie:

    The account LITERALLY said CCHQ repeatedly including in ALL graphics put out AND the description AND the handle.

    Much ado about nothing and straight out of the Lib Dem playbook.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #138
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    And now the resident Tory denies the existence of click bait; after all the destination made its intensions quite clear once you had arrived.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  19. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And now the resident Tory denies the existence of click bait; after all the destination made its intensions quite clear once you had arrived.
    It said CCHQ before you clicked on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #140
    Labour Manifesto released: https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  21. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Labour Manifesto released: https://www.labourmanifesto.co.uk/
    Labour's real manifesto meanwhile, makes for more grim reading than that silly Tory site.

    An excerpt from one of their .pdf downloads on funding:

    Labour would, in contrast to the official baseline which has corporation tax at 17% from April
    2020
    - Reintroduce a small profits rate for firms with a turnover under £300,000 a year
    - Raise the main rate of corporation tax to 21% from April 2020, 24% from April 2021 and 26% from April 2022.
    - Keep the small profits rate at 19% in April 2020, rising to 20% in April 2021 and 21% in April 2021


    Bye-bye small business, the backbone of Britain. Hello mass unemployment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  22. #142
    Yeah my link was a joke. Labour's real manifesto is insane.

    Other highlights of the manifesto:
    Taxing all dividends as income, again destroying small businesses.

    Increasing taxes on R&D, increasing taxes on investment.

    £10/h minimum wage for everyone [including 16 year olds, currently £4.35 for 16-17] with 'full employment rights' from day one of employment, meaning no probation period. No business will hire hormonal teenagers with zero experience and no probation period permitted on £10 per hour unless they have sparkling CVs for their age eg straight A's, Duke of Ed awards etc
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Bye-bye small business, the backbone of Britain. Hello mass unemployment.
    A 2% rise over two years? Whatever will they do.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  24. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    A 2% rise over two years? Whatever will they do.
    That's the thin end of the wedge, the change to dividends is a killer.

    Many small businesses have turnover [not profits] over £300k and that's a 9% increase not a 2% increase on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #145
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Are dividends not income?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  26. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Are dividends not income?
    They're currently a more, ahem, "tax efficient" way for business owners to pay themselves instead of a salary. I guess a lot of small business owners do that, so if they can't do that anymore the economy will implode or something.

    The business community always says this will happen whenever a government proposes a law that's going to stop them taking the piss. They did it with the minimum wage, with the ban on tobacco advertising, when they weren't allowed to employ children in their Dickensian smog factories, etc. Somehow they always manage to find a way to carry on anyway.
    Last edited by Steely Glint; 11-22-2019 at 05:49 PM.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  27. #147
    I think I've decided.

    I know that I will not vote for this current incarnation of the Conservative party. I despise Boris Johnson, and each member of his cabinet appears to either be completely incompetent, a liar, a slimy dishonest weasel or simply morally unfit to lead our nation. I also think their record over the last 9 years has been a disgrace

    I also have to factor things in at a local level. I'm unlucky enough to be a constituent run by the worst council in the country (they made BBC headline news for being completely broke). We have a Tory MP and a Tory council and honestly, I don't think they could make a bigger mess of the town I live in if they'd tried. They even cancelled local elections because they couldn't afford to run them.

    So both at a nation and local level I think my priority is getting the Tories out. To this end I'll be voting tactically to replace my MP. That means I have to vote Labour, as in the last election it was 46% Tory and 44% Labour. Lib Dems are nowhere in my area.

  28. #148
    There's going to be so much tactical voting this time around the BBC analysts are going to have an absolute field day come election night.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  29. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Are dividends not income?
    Its double-taxation. Wages come from pre-tax company income - dividends are paid post-tax. Hence small business owners like plumbers, electricians etc running a limited company are liable for paying their employees from pre-tax income but then take any profit out as dividends. Dividends can only be paid with profits that corporation tax has been paid on. Dividend taxes then are lower than regular income to compensate for the fact that corporation tax has already been taken: https://www.gov.uk/tax-on-dividends

    Combine an increase in corporation tax with an increase in dividend taxes and why would any company declare a profit or pay out dividends? If dividend income were classed as regular income it would make sense for business owners to pay themselves bonuses instead [pre-tax] thus eliminating the corporation tax payment.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    I think I've decided.

    I know that I will not vote for this current incarnation of the Conservative party. I despise Boris Johnson, and each member of his cabinet appears to either be completely incompetent, a liar, a slimy dishonest weasel or simply morally unfit to lead our nation. I also think their record over the last 9 years has been a disgrace

    I also have to factor things in at a local level. I'm unlucky enough to be a constituent run by the worst council in the country (they made BBC headline news for being completely broke). We have a Tory MP and a Tory council and honestly, I don't think they could make a bigger mess of the town I live in if they'd tried. They even cancelled local elections because they couldn't afford to run them.

    So both at a nation and local level I think my priority is getting the Tories out. To this end I'll be voting tactically to replace my MP. That means I have to vote Labour, as in the last election it was 46% Tory and 44% Labour. Lib Dems are nowhere in my area.
    Your Tory council sounds like a frickin disaster - aye get them out.

    My borough was Vince Cable's, so is bit of a Lib Dem stronghold. We did flirt with the Tories when Cameron was around and had a thin-majority Tory council, then in the last election it swung heavily back to the Lib Dems.

    I'll be voting to keep them in.

    Labour had just three seats on the council, and lost all of them in the last election. They have no presence 'round these 'ere parts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

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