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Thread: UK General Election 12 December

  1. #181
    I can understand how Johnson might be afraid of Channel 4 after they not only caught him lying on camera but also called him out for doing so. Liars like Johnson hate/fear getting exposed.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #182
    Yes Channel 4 have a long history of anti-Tory bias and being unprofessional I completely agree.

    Rather than "you know nothing Jon Snow", we have on Channel 4 Jon "Fuck the Tories" Snow.

    If the BBC's main journalist had been seen chanting "Fuck Labour" or "Fuck Corbyn" or "Fuck the socialists" then they would not have remained a BBC journalist. For a journalist which has a duty of impartiality that would be gross misconduct but for Channel 4 though Jon Snow going to a Corbyn rally and chanting "Fuck the Tories" is just another day in the office.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #183
    Like "Fuck business" and "Fuck the families of 7/7"?

  4. #184
    I do not and never have approved the expression "Fuck business".

    I have no idea what you're talking about regarding 7/7 families.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes Channel 4 have a long history of anti-Tory bias and being unprofessional I completely agree.

    Rather than "you know nothing Jon Snow", we have on Channel 4 Jon "Fuck the Tories" Snow.

    If the BBC's main journalist had been seen chanting "Fuck Labour" or "Fuck Corbyn" or "Fuck the socialists" then they would not have remained a BBC journalist. For a journalist which has a duty of impartiality that would be gross misconduct but for Channel 4 though Jon Snow going to a Corbyn rally and chanting "Fuck the Tories" is just another day in the office.
    This has nothing to do with them catching Johnson lying on camera. Johnson is responsible for his lies.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  6. #186
    To call someone a liar is very pejorative and unprofessional.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    To call someone a liar is very pejorative and unprofessional.
    They didn't call him a liar in that segment, they simply showed viewers that he lied, and told him what he had actually said—which he continued to lie about. Do you know what is really unprofessional? An MP lying on camera. That's Johnson. You're supporting a liar.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #188
    I have no objection to showing videos and letting the public decide.

    That is not what I am referring to, the head of Channel 4 news has repeatedly called Johnson a liar. Everyone involved with Channel 4 news is very leftwing and open about it. In no professional media does someone go around chanting "Fuck the Tories" and continue to represent the Channel as an impartial "journalist". Channel 4 has about as much credibility for impartiality as Fox. Do you think its appropriate for an "impartial" journalist to be chanting "fuck the Tories" in public?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I do not and never have approved the expression "Fuck business".

    I have no idea what you're talking about regarding 7/7 families.
    Not you. Our Prime Minister.

  10. #190
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    To call someone a liar is very pejorative and unprofessional.
    He did lie. That makes him a liar. I'm not seeing the pejorative here. It's a fact.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  11. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    To call someone a liar is very pejorative and unprofessional.
    Why?

  12. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    He did lie. That makes him a liar. I'm not seeing the pejorative here. It's a fact.
    Can you prove that he lied rather than making an honest mistake? People do make mistakes you know, that doesn't make them liars.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #193
    He has a demonstrably proven history of lying. He's been sacked twice for lying. When people don't trust you, because you lie, you find that they simply don't believe in "honest mistakes". His reputation and credibility are in tatters and he has only himself to blame. Well, him and the rest of the Tory party that enable him and his awful propaganda-slogan machine.

  14. #194
    He was sacked once for lying over 30 years ago I believe, did you never make a mistake in the past 30 years?

    He was demoted by Howard due to a media storm to which Howard later apologised and said he was wrong to sack him. Howard wasn't the best leader.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #195
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    He was sacked once for lying over 30 years ago I believe, did you never make a mistake in the past 30 years?

    He was demoted by Howard due to a media storm to which Howard later apologised and said he was wrong to sack him. Howard wasn't the best leader.
    I've not been sacked for lying, no.

    And just because Howard later said he was wrong to sack him, doesn't mean he still didn't lie.

  16. #196
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8929076.html

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...on-lying-media

    Of course, Rand will now claim that all of those were just "honest mistakes".

    At some point, Rand, when there's this much smoke, a fire becomes a certainty.

    Edit: Hoo, this one's a doozy:

    https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  17. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Channel 4, quite literally the 4th rate news operation in this country, have no right to demand the Prime Minister attends a minor TV event. At the best of times not even the BBC does, the only person who can summon the Prime Minister is Her Majesty the Queen. I don't think any Prime Minister has ever attended a debate on Channel 4 who don't even send journalists to news interviews (they get ITN to do all that legwork). Debates are arranged between the parties and the broadcasters, this debate was not arranged. Channel 4 announced this and the minor parties said they could attend [afterall the real broadcasters are more into head to head debates some of which have already occured than this 7 way nonsense] and Boris said immediately he couldn't attend because he had existing commitments on that date. In case you hadn't noticed there's an election going on right now and he was campaigning in Wales in pre-announced events that were announced before this debate was announced by Channel 4 without them confirming his availability or attendance.

    However we don't have a Presidential Election, this is a Parliamentary Election and why Channel 4 are probably in very serious breach of OFCOM regulations with their petulant and childish antics. The media doesn't invite leaders etc they invite parties, they can request the leader but they can't demand it. The Conservatives are entitled to send who they want to represent the party under OFCOM regulations, just as Amber Rudd represented the Tories at a BBC debate last election. Just as tomorrow multiple parties have other MPs taking part in one of the 7-way debates. But to make it worse Channel 4 then said this was a Climate Debate so who better to represent that for the Conservative Party than one of the parties most senior MPs who was until recently the Environment Secretary and is responsible for the parties Climate Policies? Gove is not just a random person he is literally the parties Climate expert who offered himself to take part in what they were calling #ClimateDebate. If they had said this was an economic debate would they have rejected the Chancellor of the Exchequer taking part? Pathetic.

    As for the Buzzfeed bullshit from an unnamed source, that is typical Buzzfeed bullshit. In case you didn't know this Channel 4's public sector broadcasting obligations expire in 2024. Its not a threat that the Tories will review them, whoever wins the election will be reviewing them. If the Tories win and don't renew or review them then they will expire automatically.
    Randblade, post your fucking sources. It's basic courtesy.

    I'm sick of spending hours trawling round the internet trying to find where the information you post comes from because literally any factual claim you post needs to be double checked.

    I will reply to this once I have links for the factual claims presented.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  18. #198
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    I have also never been sacked for telling lies.

    With De Pfeffel the lies start with his name, and so far it hasn't stopped. One has to wonder if the man is capable of saying anything that's true.

    But we should not flatter ourselves to think that RandBlade can be convinced that staunchly supporting a pathological liar will only leave him in tears when it's too late to undo the damage.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  19. #199
    The thing about the whole Times thing was that he was then able to just walk straight into a job on the Telegraph, presumably because he knew Max Hastings. Can you imagine almost anyone else scoring a job at a major national newspaper with 'sacked for fabricating a quote while a graduate trainee' on their resume? Like, maybe if he was a long term employee with experience and a track record who just screwed up one time and their Times had to let him go, you could understand another national newspaper taking him on but a graduate with no journalism training or journalism degree who made up a quote inside his first year there? Fucker coasts through life on easy mode and everyone just makes an exception for him for no reason.

    He can get his ass in front of Andrew Neil and get grilled like all the other party leaders, too.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    They're currently a more, ahem, "tax efficient" way for business owners to pay themselves instead of a salary. I guess a lot of small business owners do that, so if they can't do that anymore the economy will implode or something.

    The business community always says this will happen whenever a government proposes a law that's going to stop them taking the piss. They did it with the minimum wage, with the ban on tobacco advertising, when they weren't allowed to employ children in their Dickensian smog factories, etc. Somehow they always manage to find a way to carry on anyway.
    I think you're missing a big part of the reason why dividends are taxed at a lower rate: far fewer people would own/start/invest in a business if their corporate earnings were taxed at the same rate as if they just worked for a big corporation.

    When you invest there is a risk, but the upside of that risk is progress, goods and jobs for the wider society. Lower dividend rates put an incentive behind that risk, beyond just the issues of double-taxation.

  21. #201
    This clown really is kind of a shithead:

    http://archive.spectator.co.uk/artic...995/6/politics
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #202
    People who start small businesses are generally not motivated primarily by money, since making as much money as you would have made if you'd just worked a regular job is extremely difficult and most small businesses fail before they ever get big enough to make anyone mega rich. I work for a small business that does a lot of business to business stuff, so I know a lot of those people as clients, none of them think like that.

    Additionally, the benefits of salary vs dividend for small business owners are not that clear cut. For example, the personal allowance for income tax is far higher than for dividends, and dividends as a whole are not tax deductible so paying dividends leaves the business as a whole with a larger tax bill.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  23. #203
    Indeed, people have all sorts of motivations for starting (or investing in) a business. But it would be a lot more difficult (and thus fewer would take the chance) if they paid both a corporate income tax and a high personal income tax on what is effectively business profits.

  24. #204
    It takes 3 to 5 years for most businesses to start turning a profit for the government to even tax.

    The owner will have been paying themselves a salary to live on during that time. Once they become profitable, assuming they want to be "tax efficient", they'll still pay themselves a salary because that £12,500 tax free personal allowance is just sitting there otherwise. They have another £2000 tax free of dividends. Under Labour, they will have to pay 20% on what's left over instead of 7%. But since the tax rate is just the same as income tax now they might as well just make the whole thing a salary, which the business is now no longer taxed on. Plus, I think there's other stuff they can do to be "tax efficient" - IDGAF, this policy isn't aimed at them.

    This is not going to stop anyone started a business, it means they'll take home a bit less several years down the road. It means they will, in fact, pay the same tax rate their own employees do.
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  25. #205
    I also think it's amusing that anyone thinks most small business owners even know what dividends are when they're first deciding to start a business.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I think you're missing a big part of the reason why dividends are taxed at a lower rate: far fewer people would own/start/invest in a business if their corporate earnings were taxed at the same rate as if they just worked for a big corporation.

    When you invest there is a risk, but the upside of that risk is progress, goods and jobs for the wider society. Lower dividend rates put an incentive behind that risk, beyond just the issues of double-taxation.
    There's are many reasons, another is that it encourages business owners to hold retained profits in the company rather than taking all the income out as salaries which can then be used to ensure the business is stable in the future or fund future growth - then that retained profit can be taken out as dividends in the future rather than taken out at the time the money was received. Its illegal to take dividends that are not from taxed profits.

    The bizarre notion that you can take £40bn out of corporations per annum via increased taxation without impacting the economy or employment or wages can only be made by someone terminally stupid who has never ran a company.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #207
    It's marginally more sensible than thinking that Brexit hasn't and won't have a negative impact on the economy, or employment, or wages.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  28. #208
    We are at record employment levels
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  29. #209
    That correlation between corporate tax and unemployment in full:



    Source (US Data)
    Why do we build the wall, my children, my children? We build the wall to keep us free.
    How does the wall keep us free, my children, my children? The wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    Who do we call the enemy, my children, my children? The enemy is poverty. And the wall keeps out the enemy. And we build the wall to keep us free.
    That's why we build the wall. We build the wall to keep us free. Because we have and they have not, my children, my my children. Because they want what we have got.
    What do we have that they should want, my children, my children? We have a wall to work upon. We have work and they have none. And our work is never done. And the war is never won.
    The enemy is poverty, the wall keeps out the enemy, and we build the wall to keep us free. That's why we build the wall, we build the wall to keep us free.

  30. #210
    Apples and oranges

    American taxation system is completely different to ours and I believe but I'm sure someone else could better answer that it has all sorts of deductibles and exemptions and other stuff so that was never the rate paid. Also changes are normally sensibly made in a package of reforms that don't all go in the same direction - eg sensibly in my opinion lowering rates but removing exemptions, or vice-versa. All we have here is a shopping list of many taxes all going up while costs are put up too and this isn't supposed to have any knock on effect?

    If you believe that I've got a bridge to sell you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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