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Thread: Should poor people receiving govt. benefits be required to use contraceptives?

  1. #1

    Default Should poor people receiving govt. benefits be required to use contraceptives?

    The question has (I think) previously been discussed on this dark, disgusting corner of the internet, but it has suddenly become pertinent to mainstream British politics thanks to the much-lauded appointment of super-forecaster hopped-up groyper Brain Genius Andrew "Modafinil for the People" Sabisky:

    https://www.ft.com/content/7b75c07e-...1-482eed0038b1

    and



    Like Cummings, this is an example of a man who's so smart he's actually dumb - so a perfect fit for the English govt. who will wish to keep this bold young eugenicist on its payroll just to troll the libs. But I find myself intrigued by one of his remarks:

    “One way to get around problems of unplanned pregnancies creating a permanent underclass would be to legally enforce universal uptake of long-term contraception at the onset of puberty. Vaccination laws give it a precedent, I would argue.”
    I suspect that this reasoning is dimwitted legal horseshit, but, legal soundness - and, indeed, truthfulness - notwithstanding, is it philosophically sound? I think there may be people on this forum who believe - firmly or with some ambivalence - that vaccination of children should be mandatory. Does Sabisky's grotesque position on poverty-control present a challenge to those who are proponents of mandatory vaccination? Are the two issues entirely unrelated?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #2
    Was there actually a formal job description looking for weirdos? Because I'd like to read it.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Was there actually a formal job description looking for weirdos? Because I'd like to read it.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #4
    No.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I suspect that this reasoning is dimwitted legal horseshit, but, legal soundness - and, indeed, truthfulness - notwithstanding, is it philosophically sound? I think there may be people on this forum who believe - firmly or with some ambivalence - that vaccination of children should be mandatory. Does Sabisky's grotesque position on poverty-control present a challenge to those who are proponents of mandatory vaccination? Are the two issues entirely unrelated?
    Vaccinations and contraceptives are only semi-related since they fall under Public Health and Welfare, and tax dollars are used (for R & D as well as subsidizing the poor). But sex and unintended pregnancies are not contagious viruses or diseases. Treating them the same isn't just philosophically and scientifically unsound -- it's a dangerous conflation.

  6. #6
    Seems like nobody believes this, so guess we can move on to the next exercise in bullshit spreading.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Seems like nobody believes this, so guess we can move on to the next exercise in bullshit spreading.
    Why are you so mad? Get mad at your heroes for hiring a fan of eugenics if you find the reasoning so offensive.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #8
    I'm not mad. I couldn't give a shit.

    Someone said something stupid in the past. Oh gee whiz, I bet if you dig through all of our online histories you can find something stupid all of us have said in the past, though none of that is probably why we were hired for our respective jobs. If the stupid thing that's revealed is a total dealbreaker they should go, but that doesn't mean they were hired because of that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #9
    This debate isn't limited to the UK. And you're fibbing when you say you don't give a shit.

    In the US we have a converse argument: should poor people (women) receiving gov't benefits be denied contraceptives? And then there's abortion...

  10. #10
    I'm not fibbing, there's no debate here. One bonkers person on the internet posted something outrageous once, that does not a debate make.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I'm not fibbing, there's no debate here. One bonkers person on the internet posted something outrageous once, that does not a debate make.
    BlowJob hired the guy, Rand.

    They also did NOT say: "His opinions are not our own." when asked. In fact, they went out of their way to not say that.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
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  12. #12
    We don't live in a Police State, people are entitled to a private opinion and someone being hired doesn't mean their employer shares every one of their opinions.

    Especially when they did NOT say "his opinions are our own" and then fired him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  13. #13
    What was this guy hired to do?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    What was this guy hired to do?
    That's not been explicitly said, but most reports have suggested he'd been hired as an adviser as a "superforecaster": https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-51545541

    No suggestions he was hired to design policies relating to eugenics
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We don't live in a Police State, people are entitled to a private opinion and someone being hired doesn't mean their employer shares every one of their opinions.

    Especially when they did NOT say "his opinions are our own" and then fired him.
    I'd say for an advisor, opinions are relevant.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I'd say for an advisor, opinions are relevant.
    Depends what they were advising upon.

    And again, they fired him already. I don't think he was hired on eugenics policies do you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #17
    To be clear, he was hired in spite of his reprehensible views, which he expressed publicly on multiple occasions rather than just "once" as RB claimed, even in an interview rather than just writing "on the internet" as RB claimed. Anyone who believes that Cummings - on whose website Sabisky shared some of his views, and who has a similar creepy obsession with right-wing tropes about racial genetic differences in IQ - wasn't aware of these views is either stupid, or believes the chief adviser to the PM is stupid, or is lying, or is suggesting that the chief adviser to the PM is lying. All of these alternatives are almost equally plausible, and several may be true at once. We can be sure Sabisky was fired because these idiots got caught rather than because they had any moral/ethical objections to working with him and paying him from public funds.

    Iirc, the discussion about contraceptives for poor people originated in something Chaloobi once said in some thread. If anyone can find it, that would be cool.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #18
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    We don't live in a Police State, people are entitled to a private opinion and someone being hired doesn't mean their employer shares every one of their opinions.

    Especially when they did NOT say "his opinions are our own" and then fired him.
    Dude. When POLITICIANS hire someone then they usually do not do this independent of his political agenda. Next up: BlowJob hires Corbyn as their advisor.

    Also, he wasn't fired. He resigned on his own.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...enics-writings
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Dude. When POLITICIANS hire someone then they usually do not do this independent of his political agenda.

    Also, he wasn't fired. He resigned on his own.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...enics-writings
    Oh sure he "resigned" . Because a resignation in politics is never asked for. Don't be naive
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #20
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Oh sure he "resigned" . Because a resignation in politics is never asked for. Don't be naive
    The stronger signal would have been to actually fire him. Which you're allowed to do, y'know, with people you hire.

    But, seriously, he was not fired in total contradiction to what you stated repeatedly. Even if he was asked for it he was allowed to resign. But nice attempt at gaslighting.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #21
    To fire someone you should generally have an issue with their performance in the job, hence asking for a resignation is easier. If you want rid of them then yes of course they should be allowed to resign unless the firing is eg due to something criminal which wasn't the case here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #22
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    You can also fire someone for having views not compatible with the mission statement. And please, Dunn as a source? Why not someone from the DailyFail as well?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  23. #23
    Firing without warning should normally only happen for gross misconduct and disagreeing with someone's private views that aren't related to what they've been hired for isn't normally gross misconduct. Easier and cleaner to accept a resignation.

    I'll never read The Sun but Dunn is a journalist who is often quoted by other media.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #24
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    And? Often quoted to show what a dunce he is?

    And, Rand, what was he hired to do exactly? I'll wait till you come up with a job description...
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  25. #25
    No, not a dunce. He's a credible journalist despite the rag he works for and breaks stories quite often. Thankfully online so we don't have to go to the rag he works for.

    He was hired as a "superforecaster" and has been sacked so I honestly couldn't care less what his job description was. It was not eugenics policy making , if you think otherwise then you feel free to quote his job description
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #26
    "Eugenics policy maker" would look awful nice on a linkedin page...
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, not a dunce. He's a credible journalist despite the rag he works for and breaks stories quite often. Thankfully online so we don't have to go to the rag he works for.

    He was hired as a "superforecaster" and has been sacked so I honestly couldn't care less what his job description was. It was not eugenics policy making , if you think otherwise then you feel free to quote his job description
    A credible journalist works for credible journals. Can't have it both ways.

    And a superforecaster is so meaningless as a job title that it can mean anything. Probably was supposed to forecast the impact of eugenics on the NHS.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  29. #29
    This isn't Germany. We don't do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Being upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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