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Thread: covid-19

  1. #2431
    Where's your criticism of the EU's scheme been? Aimless's? Hazir's?

    Its an unmitigated disaster and where is the criticism? Or is it perhaps in your eyes anti-European or taboo to level any criticism?

    When some was shared here from a German paper you attacked the source rather than tackle the issue, you moronic joker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #2432
    Is the EU to blame or is it individual governments and local authorities?

    And FT article two days ago on this subject said:

    Denmark’s creditable performance, just ahead of the UK on a per capita basis, shows that EU centralised procurement is not responsible for Europe’s faltering start.

    I genuinely don't know. The EU was obviously slower to procure and approve, but my understanding is that in return they got a cheaper price and more liability if things go wrong. That's all done now though, I think, and it's now down to individual nations.

    Interested in other's thoughts.

  3. #2433
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    The Dutch situation wasn't caused by the EU program. It was caused by privacy-fetishism and late changes to national policies.
    Congratulations America

  4. #2434
    If blame is properly laid on individual states and not the EU, it seems to me that just leads to a further question as to why that happens to be the case? While I mostly steer clear of the topic these days, posters on here probably recall I am not a big fan of "ever closer union." But infectious disease response and control strikes me as one field where it's a marvelous idea.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  5. #2435
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    I am not a big fan of "ever closer union." But infectious disease response and control strikes me as one field where it's a marvelous idea.
    Agreed.

    If there's any area where a unified policy covering a large area/population/many states is beneficial it's in control of an infectious disease.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  6. #2436
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Is the EU to blame or is it individual governments and local authorities?

    And FT article two days ago on this subject said:

    Denmark’s creditable performance, just ahead of the UK on a per capita basis, shows that EU centralised procurement is not responsible for Europe’s faltering start.

    I genuinely don't know. The EU was obviously slower to procure and approve, but my understanding is that in return they got a cheaper price and more liability if things go wrong. That's all done now though, I think, and it's now down to individual nations.

    Interested in other's thoughts.
    To answer your first question: Yes.

    Yes the EU is to blame and Yes local authorities are to blame too. Two wrongs don't make a right and more than one thing can go wrong.

    The flaws with the EU's procurement programme are many and detailed. Try going through the Tweets of the Portugese reporter I linked to before who has done a lot in covering this recently. Then to add insult to injury many nations have badly rolled out what was actually procured, with the Danes being a notable exception.

    The EU's procurement scheme has been dominated by the worst forms of European nationalism. Pfizer literally offered the EU hundreds of millions of more doses but the French were unhappy at giving so many extra doses to a German company so they were turned down. Instead the first vaccine signed by the EU was the Sanofi vaccine which not only isn't authorised it hasn't even started its Phase III trial yet! 300 million doses signed first to a French company that may begin Phase III trials in a few months time and could potentially be available by the end of 2021 if the EU is lucky at this rate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #2437
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If blame is properly laid on individual states and not the EU, it seems to me that just leads to a further question as to why that happens to be the case? While I mostly steer clear of the topic these days, posters on here probably recall I am not a big fan of "ever closer union." But infectious disease response and control strikes me as one field where it's a marvelous idea.
    Marvellous if a good job is done.

    Terrible if a bad job is done.

    Data sharing should be spread out but slow moving decision making during a pandemic is not a strength. The biggest criticism levelled at our PM for instance is that he's sometimes slow to react - the EU by its very nature and way it has been designed is even slower to react as a bloc.

    Countries that have done well have done so by acting rapidly not by acting as a sclerotic, Byzantine bloc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  8. #2438
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    OK then if criticism isn't taboo then who has been leading it? If you're saying that criticism isn't taboo but nobody can be bothered to criticise then that's a distinction without a meaningful difference.
    Most of the criticism has come from parties and media in the resp. member states, and has been directed at govts and other authorities in those states, because it is clear that they bear the greatest responsibility for problems.

    The point is that the criticism has been vocal and consistent in the US and UK, with the results to show for it
    I'm pretty sure you're wrong and that the results are mostly due to eating roast turkey on holidays.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    If blame is properly laid on individual states and not the EU, it seems to me that just leads to a further question as to why that happens to be the case? While I mostly steer clear of the topic these days, posters on here probably recall I am not a big fan of "ever closer union." But infectious disease response and control strikes me as one field where it's a marvelous idea.
    Quote Originally Posted by Timbuk2 View Post
    Agreed.

    If there's any area where a unified policy covering a large area/population/many states is beneficial it's in control of an infectious disease.
    Disagree in two respects.

    1. It's more or less impossible to unify policy across a bloc consisting of countries that differ greatly wrt institutions, structure & responsibility of healthcare systems, economic features, etc. Policy must be tailored to national and local circumstances.

    2. Policies are inextricably entwined with politics, as they involve often significant restrictions on rights. Politicians at those levels are best suited to engage the public and to make sensitive decisions about tradeoffs.

    The EU can, however, play an important role in coordinating surveillance—and assisting in procurement and distribution of treatments and vaccines, or the distribution of necessary equipment.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The flaws with the EU's procurement programme are many and detailed. Try going through the Tweets of the Portugese reporter I linked to before who has done a lot in covering this recently.
    The Portuguese reporter uncritically retweeted an image containing an error. The Sanofi contract was signed on September 18:

    https://ec.europa.eu/commission/pres.../en/ip_20_1680

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  9. #2439
    Had the EU been purchasing Sanofi on top of Pfizer etc then that would be fair enough, but that isn't the case. The EU quite famously rejected Pfizer's offer of half a billion doses of the vaccine last summer (when Pfizer was already in Phase III) and only purchased an initial 200m doses instead as late as November meaning they're getting their stock distributed behind countries that purchased sooner, while instead going ahead with 300m for Sanofi which still isn't in Phase III.

    Yes buying some of everything as it goes into Phase III is a good idea if it is going to be available around now. Rejecting those that are available now in favour of those available at the end of the year is a different matter!

    The EU's supply purchases of both Pfizer and Astrazenica were pro rata both much smaller than the UK's purchases and signed much later and getting delivered much later as a result. The UK, like Israel, ensured it purchased its supplies ASAP for those going into Phase III last summer and the gamble is paying off now. The EU instead waited until November to get around to signing a deal with Pfizer, having signed a deal with Sanofi months sooner.

    It is borderline corrupt and inexcusable. Had Sanofi been on top of sufficient and prompt orders of Pfizer etc then fair enough, but it was not. Sanofi wasn't another egg it was the key egg they signed, despite knowing it wasn't even in Phase III yet and still is not. The EU rushed to sign an agreement with Sanofi that won't even be available for another year potentially, if ever, by which time the pandemic should frankly be over hopefully - while dawdling until November to get off its arse with Pfizer. And ordering a smaller quantity from Pfizer than from Sanofi.

    No wonder the Germans and others have had enough and started signing their own deals with Pfizer because the EU scheme is broken.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #2440
    Some good news.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #2441
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Had the EU been purchasing Sanofi on top of Pfizer etc then that would be fair enough, but that isn't the case. The EU quite famously rejected Pfizer's offer of half a billion doses of the vaccine last summer (when Pfizer was already in Phase III) and only purchased an initial 200m doses instead as late as November meaning they're getting their stock distributed behind countries that purchased sooner, while instead going ahead with 300m for Sanofi which still isn't in Phase III.

    Yes buying some of everything as it goes into Phase III is a good idea if it is going to be available around now. Rejecting those that are available now in favour of those available at the end of the year is a different matter!

    The EU's supply purchases of both Pfizer and Astrazenica were pro rata both much smaller than the UK's purchases and signed much later and getting delivered much later as a result. The UK, like Israel, ensured it purchased its supplies ASAP for those going into Phase III last summer and the gamble is paying off now. The EU instead waited until November to get around to signing a deal with Pfizer, having signed a deal with Sanofi months sooner.
    Why are you describing it as a rejection, when it's clear that what actually happened was that they continued negotiating? Talks with Pfizer concluded in early September. Just because a candidate is in phase III doesn't mean that that candidate will pan out—half of all phase III trials fail, and it's difficult to determine whether a completely new technology will pan out.

    It is borderline corrupt and inexcusable.
    Do you... do you know what the word "corrupt" even means?

    Had Sanofi been on top of sufficient and prompt orders of Pfizer etc then fair enough, but it was not. Sanofi wasn't another egg it was the key egg they signed, despite knowing it wasn't even in Phase III yet and still is not. The EU rushed to sign an agreement with Sanofi that won't even be available for another year potentially, if ever, by which time the pandemic should frankly be over hopefully - while dawdling until November to get off its arse with Pfizer. And ordering a smaller quantity from Pfizer than from Sanofi.
    This is the sort of foaming-at-the-mouth rant that would be more appropriate on The Sun's FB page. The fuck do you mean "Sanofi wasn't another egg it was the key egg" you utter egg? The very first contract that was signed was with AZN—for the same amount of initial doses as for Sanofi, with an optional 100m on top of that. Both AZN & Sanofi were offering logistically preferable candidates, one that might be delivered early and one that might be developed later but using a proven technology. The Sanofi contract was negotiated to allow donations of vaccine doses to other countries that might not be able to manage the cold chain requirements of some of the other candidates. There was no plausible case, back in summer, for the view that the pandemic would be over a year later. I'm sorry mate, but you've clearly lost it. Get a grip.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  12. #2442
    Definitely (to RBs last post)

    I was offered the vaccine yesterday. My oncologist says I need a two week break from chemo before I should take it, leaving another week before I go again. Cycle 34 is being pumped into me as I type this so I've got to arrange the jab for 1st, 2nd or 3rd Feb. I wasn't able to make that booking yesterday as my local GP surgery is only making appointments 2 days in advance so I need to ring closer to the time. Hoping I can still get it on those days.

    I'm not entirely sure whether my behaviour will change once I've had the vaccine. Certainly I hope my family will relax a little, especially my eldest who has so, so cautious. More cautious than any 11 year should ever have to be.

    I would like to go shopping though. Really miss walking round the supermarket. Might feel brave enough to do that.

    Having cancer and being on chemo during this ordeal really is the highest order of bullshit.
    Last edited by gogobongopop; Yesterday at 03:13 PM.

  13. #2443
    Let's just summarize:

    The UK and US are more successful than the EU wrt vaccination because their governments are subjected to intense criticism from opposition and media, as is the case in those bastions of healthy political dissent and press freedom Bahrain and UAE.

    The jealous French corruptly persuaded the Commission to shaft Pfizer & BioNTech because they didn't want Germans getting a big contract, but they were very happy to let the Commission sign an equally ambitious contract with a British company.

    The EU is to blame for govts and authorities in member states not being able to deploy even the vaccines that they have been awarded.

    Are there any other harebrained ideas you'd like to float or do you think you might want to take a breather and pull yourself together?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #2444
    Oh that is good news gogo. I'm guessing you're in Priority Group IV (clinically vulnerable) rather than age-related. Very good news if they're booking appointments for you already. Hope it goes through smoothly for you, and doesn't disrupt your fight against cancer. Best wishes!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #2445
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Oh that is good news gogo. I'm guessing you're in Priority Group IV (clinically vulnerable) rather than age-related. Very good news if they're booking appointments for you already. Hope it goes through smoothly for you, and doesn't disrupt your fight against cancer. Best wishes!
    Correct, group 4 - and thanks

  16. #2446
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Definitely (to RBs last post)

    I was offered the vaccine yesterday. My oncologist says I need a two week break from chemo before I should take it, leaving another week before I go again. Cycle 34 is being pumped into me as I type this so I've got to arrange the jab for 1st, 2nd or 3rd Feb. I wasn't able to make that booking yesterday as my local GP surgery is only making appointments 2 days in advance so I need to ring closer to the time. Hoping I can still get it on those days.

    I'm not entirely sure whether my behaviour will change once I've had the vaccine. Certainly I hope my family will relax a little, especially my eldest who has so, so cautious. More cautious than any 11 year should ever have to be.

    I would like to go shopping though. Really miss walking round the supermarket. Might feel brave enough to do that.

    Having cancer and being on chemo during this ordeal really is the highest order of bullshit.
    That is very good news mate, I'm glad the UK has been so effective at getting the vaccine to those who need it most. Hope it goes according to plan and that you and your family can have a more relaxed time together
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  17. #2447
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    That is very good news mate, I'm glad the UK has been so effective at getting the vaccine to those who need it most. Hope it goes according to plan and that you and your family can have a more relaxed time together
    Tack så mycket herrn

  18. #2448
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Aside from my government fucking up vaccinations, there's also good news: positive cases are still consistently dropping fora while now, and by now hospital occupancy is also dropping ICU occupancy is not dropping a lot yet but has stagnated, which is also good news. Still high, but well below the peak from the first wave and capacity.

    Also had my first test last weekend (was negative), wasn't comfortable but after the stories I heard less bad than expected. Whole proces from making an appointment to getting results was very smooth.

    Edit: good news Gogo, hope you can make that appointment when you can get the shot.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #2449
    UK vaccinations

    11/01 166,474
    12/01 223,726
    13/01 288,688

    England vaccinations

    11/01 140,441
    12/01 187,645
    13/01 248,177

    Northern Ireland vaccinations

    11/01 7,521
    12/01 9,782
    13/01 12,454

    Scotland vaccinations

    11/01 12,664
    12/01 16,156
    13/01 16,442

    Wales vaccinations

    11/01 5,218
    12/01 10,143
    13/01 11,615

    Looking on course for the first four groups to be done by 15/2 so long as the ramp up can continue and it doesn't dip too much at weekends.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #2450
    Everything about this potential scandal is very unclear right now:

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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