Alternative medicine

[Hazir]

I used to be very sceptical about alternative medicine. But over the last few months my views have been shifting. The reasons for that are that I, after many diets have found a way to shed weight in a way that doesn't feel like deprivation. I have basically wiped the symptoms of diabetes out of my life and stopped using metformin by simply changing what I eat.
And the last few weeks I have been experiencing how an inflammation in my shoulder is affected by when I eat.

The above does not make me feel like all traditional medicine is rubbish. But I am not so certain any longer that the medical profession approaches our health in quite the right way.

[wiggin]

Are we using the same definition of alternative medicine? Because I'm no doctor, but I'm pretty sure most physicians spend decades telling their patients at risk of type II diabetes to change their diets, and work to control mild cases of type II diabetes with diet control rather than medication.

Now, if you're going to tell me that you think that eliminating nightshades from your diet will make you play like Tom Brady, I'll definitely let you certify yourself as a kook.

[Wraith]

I used to be very sceptical about alternative medicine. But over the last few months my views have been shifting. The reasons for that are that I, after many diets have found a way to shed weight in a way that doesn't feel like deprivation. I have basically wiped the symptoms of diabetes out of my life and stopped using metformin by simply changing what I eat.
And the last few weeks I have been experiencing how an inflammation in my shoulder is affected by when I eat.

The above does not make me feel like all traditional medicine is rubbish. But I am not so certain any longer that the medical profession approaches our health in quite the right way.

Alternative medicine mostly relies on the placebo effect to make it seem like it's not rubbish. It's still not any better than placebos though, and in some cases worse.

However, what you're describing doesn't really fall into what's usually described as alternative medicine. Without knowing the specifics, it might be disparagingly referred to as a "fad diet", but it doesn't fall under the label of alternative medicine. Most diets actually do work as advertised as long as you can stick with it. It's the sticking with it that's the difficult part and that causes so many diets to fail. So if you found something that works and you can stick to, then keep going, regardless of what others say or think about it. Your diabetes symptoms disappearing isn't surprising if your diet is working, as that's largely a result of eating habits anyways, and the most common treatment is just diet and exercise. Metformin is a fallback for when those don't work.

Good work on finding a diet you can keep to that helps you lose weight and starts attacking your diabetes! Don't get overconfident, and don't make excuses later on for why you don't need it anymore. Also don't get discouraged if you get to a point where it seems like it's not working as well anymore - that's normal, and it's the trap that causes a lot of failures. Just keep it up. But you shouldn't take this as evidence that alternative medicine is anything more than a placebo, or that traditional medicine is wrong.

[Hazir]

You miss the part I guess where the protocols would have set me on a path of more medication, not on a path to being more healthy. From what I understand on the assumption that people cannot change.

I can be more specific about the 'placebo' effect you seem to think is at work. I played around with time restrictions on eating and noticed that during times of not eating flexibility of my shoulder increased and that pain levels decreased. As I write I did not have any caloric intake for 60 hours and my shoulder function is almost entirely back to normal.

I think I have good reason to question an approach of chronic problems through a fight against symptoms only, not taking root causes into account.

PS I started with an aggressive cutting out of carbs, lost 20kgs in 2 months with no extra exercise, and zero feeling of deprivation. Fasting didn't speed up losing weight, surprisingly, but had the described side effect.

[Wraith]

You miss the part I guess where the protocols would have set me on a path of more medication, not on a path to being more healthy. From what I understand on the assumption that people cannot change.

Well that's just bad doctoring then. They're not all great. Good on you for proving those guys wrong.

I can be more specific about the 'placebo' effect you seem to think is at work. I played around with time restrictions on eating and noticed that during times of not eating flexibility of my shoulder increased and that pain levels decreased. As I write I did not have any caloric intake for 60 hours and my shoulder function is almost entirely back to normal.

I might be about to walk back some of what I said. Fasting can be dangerous. There is a fasting high that you can get after longer stretches without food, but it's not actually making you any healthier. That's your body going into hardcore survival mode. I don't know your precise circumstances, so it could be perfectly fine for you, but be careful with the long fasts. Also be aware that you may be sabotaging yourself a bit - long fasts train your body to hold onto more of your intake after you break the fast.

I think I have good reason to question an approach of chronic problems through a fight against symptoms only, not taking root causes into account.

Yeah, you're right. You do have a good reason to question it, and you should. If your doctor won't work with you to address the underlying causes and can't give you an explanation for why that you can believe in, find a new doctor.

[wiggin]

Hazir, you do realize that there's an abundance of medical literature on fasting, some of which supports an anti-inflammatory effect (albeit relatively modest). I'm happy it's working out for you, but I would hesitate to call this 'alternative medicine'.

Now, I'm not saying that I'd prescribe fasting to patients (were I a real doctor) for a whole host of reasons. But just look at some of the animal data on calorie restriction, it's pretty impressive.

[Hazir]

Hazir, you do realize that there's an abundance of medical literature on fasting, some of which supports an anti-inflammatory effect (albeit relatively modest). I'm happy it's working out for you, but I would hesitate to call this 'alternative medicine'.

Now, I'm not saying that I'd prescribe fasting to patients (were I a real doctor) for a whole host of reasons. But just look at some of the animal data on calorie restriction, it's pretty impressive.

Why would you hesitate to call it alternative medicine?

I am looking into it quite a lot recently, and am aware of what's going around. The process of learning about it has been partially through 'feeling' and partially through reading about it. Which is why I am willing to see what happens if I deprive myself of all food for 5 full days. And tbh, it is a strange experience. Like I said I feel my shoulder improving, I don't have to significantly cut back on my regular activities, and what may be strangest: no hunger or cravings whatsoever.

[Hazir]

Well that's just bad doctoring then. They're not all great. Good on you for proving those guys wrong.


I might be about to walk back some of what I said. Fasting can be dangerous. There is a fasting high that you can get after longer stretches without food, but it's not actually making you any healthier. That's your body going into hardcore survival mode. I don't know your precise circumstances, so it could be perfectly fine for you, but be careful with the long fasts. Also be aware that you may be sabotaging yourself a bit - long fasts train your body to hold onto more of your intake after you break the fast.

Yeah, you're right. You do have a good reason to question it, and you should. If your doctor won't work with you to address the underlying causes and can't give you an explanation for why that you can believe in, find a new doctor.

You call it bad doctoring, and I would too. But it's simply how 'we' deal with health. A doctor confronted with the following 'patient with DM2 on Metformin complains about occasional hypoglycemia' , should advise this patient to increase intake of fast carbohydrates. Now, that indeed fixes the accute problem. However, that fix is not necessarily followed up with a reduction of the prescription.

You are outright wrong about fasts. Though there are specific risks connected to fasting, there is no reason to call fasting, when done under the right circumstances dangerous. There is some clinical evidence that fasting may help the body deal better with external stressors. As for the retention argument - I presume you're talking about the yoyo effect here - that remains to be seen doesn't it? Given that my bodyfat still stands at 32% purely theoretically there is no shortage of energy to keep everything going. Which, accidentally, is exactly the way it feels.

[Flixy]

For what it's worth, I usually consider alternative medicine to be the kind not based in science, think of energy crystals etc., while diets are, in my opinion, scientific but not very well understood (yet). But I see your point if calling it alternative, since it's not the traditional medication approach. Glad it works for you.

[Hazir]

I have a slightly different definition, in which the alternative part lies in the what question, not so much in the how question.

In my case: do I want to control high glucose levels or do I want to cure diabetes. Regular medicine is still strongly pre-occupied with the first and reluctant to see as diabetes mellitus 2 as something that can actually be cured. Alternative medicine sees it as something that can be cured. Thus not recognizing it as a chronic disease for real.

[Ominous Gamer]

. I have basically wiped the symptoms of diabetes out of my life and stopped using metformin by simply changing what I eat.
And the last few weeks I have been experiencing how an inflammation in my shoulder is affected by when I eat..

This isn't alternative medicine. This is the basic "watch what you eat". Doctors step in and prescribe the subpar, stopgaps, backup plan, etc when you fail to care for yourself.

You're going to blow your fucking mind when you discover exercise.

[Hazir]

This isn't alternative medicine. This is the basic "watch what you eat". Doctors step in and prescribe the subpar, stopgaps, backup plan, etc when you fail to care for yourself.

You're going to blow your fucking mind when you discover exercise.

Again, this basic thing is not what the medical world does. It does pills and insuline injections, at best backed up with advise that simply doesn't work.

Why do I say that the advise doesn't work? For a very simple reason; the advise is what I tried to apply in the long run up to this situation. Control what I eat (you kknow, that whole low-fat nonsense most of us grew up with) and exercise. I know what exercise does, I've been there too. And indeed it works, in my case if I spend around 4 hours a day in a gym and/or swimming pool (I kid you not). Then it works. While living a somewhat more normal life, where a job actually took up some serious time I only half-jokingly used to say that I merely had to think of food to pack the pounds on.

In the USA dabetic or pre-diabetic is the majority condition. One has to wonder how many people in that group think - like I did - that they know how to live healthy and don't understand why it simply won't work for them.

A little bit of ranting extra : when Covid broke out my BMI was 42,8. I realized that a survival strategy would have to include losing weight. A traditional diet got me down to a BMI of 40 after about 8 months. During that same period I started to feel real bad. And I mean real bad. Then the diagnosis came and I got the Metformin pills. And the resolve to do something about it. In the months since my BMI went down to 32. Mostly because, after a short spell with calory restriction I started to get informed and realized that it wasn't a matter of too much food, but simply the wrong food. I tried that out and it had drastic effects. 'Official information' on what I was doing was that it wasn't likely to succeed because it would involve drastic changes in life style.

[wiggin]

Hazir, I think my objection (and I assume that of others) is merely one of nomenclature. Alternative medicine as a term is generally reserved for ascientific quackery, things that actively propose garbage mechanisms of action for unproven treatments. Think homeopathy, 'energy' based therapies, faith healing.

My understanding is that you are disappointed with the therapeutic strategy your physicians have used and are embracing something else that works for your circumstance to meaningfully improve your health (but which might not be a successful strategy for the general public). If that 'something else' you are using - in this case, calorie restriction - is itself based on a reasonable mechanism of action with some data supporting its use - that does not qualify as alternative medicine.

Perhaps the language differs in NL, but that's certainly how it is used in the US.

I am very happy that you have found a way to manage your health in a way that works for you. I hope that you continue to consult with a physician of your choosing to make sure that your health is monitored and appropriately maintained, especially given the rather substantial lifestyle change you've made.

[Hazir]

Hazir, I think my objection (and I assume that of others) is merely one of nomenclature. Alternative medicine as a term is generally reserved for ascientific quackery, things that actively propose garbage mechanisms of action for unproven treatments. Think homeopathy, 'energy' based therapies, faith healing.

My understanding is that you are disappointed with the therapeutic strategy your physicians have used and are embracing something else that works for your circumstance to meaningfully improve your health (but which might not be a successful strategy for the general public). If that 'something else' you are using - in this case, calorie restriction - is itself based on a reasonable mechanism of action with some data supporting its use - that does not qualify as alternative medicine.

Perhaps the language differs in NL, but that's certainly how it is used in the US.

I am very happy that you have found a way to manage your health in a way that works for you. I hope that you continue to consult with a physician of your choosing to make sure that your health is monitored and appropriately maintained, especially given the rather substantial lifestyle change you've made.

I am not withdrawing from regular medicine, and have little to no sympathy for homeopathy and the like. But I am more sceptical than I used to be.

I can see where you come from when you say ‘may not work for the general public’. However I also wonder if that attitude isn’t fueled by the inertia of the known. When one looks at the mechanisms at work it seems to me that many attempts to make changes easier actually are throwing up barriers. For example; modified alternate day fasting. Which seems easier because you never have a day without food, but it actually makes the chances of cravings bigger.

In a way this developement connects to an experience with physicians talking about the condition of someone in ICU. The core of the information was ‘her condition is stable’. When I actually was able to see her a couple of hours later I understood that for all intents and purposes she was dead already and that stability just meant that her body functions were kept going by pumping in whatever the situation asked for. With no hope for her ever functioning again without those massive interventions. While my diagnosis was nothing remotely like that situation it was strangely reminiscent at the same time; regulate the readings and leave it at that.

[Ominous Gamer]

Again, this basic thing is not what the medical world does

My blood work has tripped prediabetes thresholds for several years now and the last time I was in the hospital was for a kindey stone.

For both of those scenarios my doctor's first, and so far only action, was a change in diet and activity.

[Hazir]

Out of curiosity, what did the advise consist of specifically?

[Ominous Gamer]

Cut down on my sugary drinks, sugary snacks and pasta*. Increase my intake of pure lemon and lime.

*The first year I triggered prediabetes I had just come off of eating at olive garden for a month after winning an all you can eat pasta pass.

[Khendraja'aro]

There's a saying over here: There's no alternative medicine. There's just medicine (supported by evidence and science) and quackery.

The problem is that what is usually labelled as "alternative medicine" takes parts of the first and mixes it with the second to varying degrees. Some approaches are pure quackery, others are largely medicine with some vestigial quackery.

The task then becomes to take those parts which actually work and discard the rest (because it's either useless or downright dangerous).

I, for example, am currently suffering from a spot of mild hypertension. The first things we went through? What's my diet like? How active am I? Sports? We then decided on some changes to sport and diet. No medicine unless it becomes worse or the changes don't show an effect.

[Aimless]

Surprised you didn't get strict orders to avoid online forums and social media

[Hazir]

There's a saying over here: There's no alternative medicine. There's just medicine (supported by evidence and science) and quackery.

The problem is that what is usually labelled as "alternative medicine" takes parts of the first and mixes it with the second to varying degrees. Some approaches are pure quackery, others are largely medicine with some vestigial quackery.

The task then becomes to take those parts which actually work and discard the rest (because it's either useless or downright dangerous).

I, for example, am currently suffering from a spot of mild hypertension. The first things we went through? What's my diet like? How active am I? Sports? We then decided on some changes to sport and diet. No medicine unless it becomes worse or the changes don't show an effect.

That's wonderful, but medicine proscribes that I get pills and a mild suggestion that I could lose some weight by eating less and moving more. Which, not from lack of trying extremely hard, I know doesn't work for me. To be a bit more specific, even while I was implementing my changes already (which I am not supposed to be able to stick to, regardless of effect) an increase of the dosage was planned. And only stopped because I confronted them with consistent low blood glucose measurements.

[Khendraja'aro]

That's wonderful, but medicine proscribes that I get pills and a mild suggestion that I could lose some weight by eating less and moving more. Which, not from lack of trying extremely hard, I know doesn't work for me. To be a bit more specific, even while I was implementing my changes already (which I am not supposed to be able to stick to, regardless of effect) an increase of the dosage was planned. And only stopped because I confronted them with consistent low blood glucose measurements.

No, "medicine" does not proscribe that. Doctors do. And some doctors jump to medication immediately while others try the non-medication approach first. It also always depend on the level of deviation from the norm you're showing - for middle to large deviations pretty much any doctor will likely choose the more cautious and "proven to work" approach.

Please don't act as if "medicine" was a thinking being. Maybe choose some other doctors while you're at it. It's not as if they haven't their share of ineptitude as well.

[BalticSailor]

My 2 cents: "Alternative medicine" encompasses all the approaches to healthcare that outright ignore (partially or completely) what is scientifically established regarding how our bodies work, and present their own, alternative approach to explaining our bodily functions, and the relevant problems.

Therefore, no, diet-related approaches do not qualify as alternative medicine. It is well known that our diet has a significant influence on our general health, it is what one would call the "mainstream opinion" on healthcare, not an alternative one. The fact that certain medics prefer to treat the consequences with no regard to the potential dietary causes of the problem is a separate issue.