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Thread: This time is different....

  1. #1

    Default This time is different....

    Decided that fiscal and monetary policies to address the covid-19 pandemic, and economic fallout, should have a dedicated thread.

    Clearly no nation or government is set up to deal with this because this time is different. But we should discuss & debate all ideas
    so here we go!

  2. #2
    At some level of unemployment it will be necessary to begin shifting the balance of tax burden more toward wealth accumulation.
    .

  3. #3
    That will take too long.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That will take too long.
    Will it take longer than passing legislation to eliminate the ability of the executive office to gut the agencies put in place by previous administrations to plan for predictable events. I believe this type of legislation would require amending the Constitution.
    .

  5. #5
    That would take too long, too.

    I'm just saying that workers and small businesses need *immediate* relief. It will be expensive and complicated, but it's absolutely necessary, and do-able.

  6. #6
    A $2 TRILLION economic "rescue" package is close to being finalized by US congress.
    US Treasury and Federal Reserve have new-fangled "tools" amounting to another $2 TRILLION, give or take.
    All to avert a viral pandemic that threatens economies with a global Depression.

    "Freee Markets" are a political-biased myth....particularly when it comes to "healthcare". Let's get that straight and stop pretending otherwise.

  7. #7
    I really wish they'd put more thought into the taxpayer ID based stimulus checks. They should have included retroactive means testing to recoup payments to people who lost no income due to the crisis. Giving the same amount of money to someone who is still getting full pay is irresponsible.
    .

  8. #8
    That would take too long.

    The only way a direct-payment "rescue" package can work is to eliminate (or reduce payments) to "high income" individuals/households. Not sure how $75,000/$150,000 became the metric, since COL varies so much by state, but at least it's a start.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That would take too long.
    No it wouldn't because (maybe I used the wrong word) by retroactive I mean the checks go out now but when you file your taxes next year you pay it back if you realized no loss of income due to the crisis.
    .

  10. #10
    Good luck with that? The tax code is so full of loopholes, it's practically a jobs program for CPAs, tax attorneys, and lobbyists. But I get your gist.

    I'm concerned about the millions of people who work in the shadow/grey economy, especially within the service industry, that won't get direct payments because they (a) don't earn enough to file a tax return, (b) don't qualify for unemployment insurance, or (c) don't have a bank account.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I really wish they'd put more thought into the taxpayer ID based stimulus checks. They should have included retroactive means testing to recoup payments to people who lost no income due to the crisis. Giving the same amount of money to someone who is still getting full pay is irresponsible.
    "free" money is nice and all but I have to agree to a degree. My family (not including my mom) is supposed to get $3,900 We are both still working. Hell, I'm getting paid for 5 hours of Windows 10 training today.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  12. #12
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    Strangely the only thing I am not concerned about in this crisis is money. I think that I will spend a lot less over at least the next three months. My income will stay roughly the same, although I expect my tenants to ask for a lower rent, at least temporarily (which I will seriously consider provided they ask). I'm going to simply save up the excess and see what I do with it. Pay off the mortgage I still have or maybe get back into shares.

    Working at home is kind of relaxed too. And it's great to be able to use the extra time for long walks with Bella.
    Greece shows us that there is a kind of politician worse than the ones that break their election promises; the ones that keep their election promises.

  13. #13
    Hmm. We're not getting a dime from the government, and we're still paying nearly $4k/month on childcare that we can't use because the government closed them all. So that's a bit frustrating, but we figure that daycare and preschool teachers need the money more than we do. Our expenses are probably quite similar (slightly higher because we're doing less shopping around for food and such) but our exhaustion level is much, much higher - we've each essentially added 5 hours of work to our day that was pretty damned full already.

    Assuming this doesn't go on too long, my job is safe(ish). So I guess that's good? But honestly 2+ months of this is going to be absolutely brutal.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  14. #14
    Is that daycare so prestigious that you won't risk withdrawal and reapplying? Here's a copy/paste from ours:
    I am not closing so if you choose not to send your child next week or longer, you have the following options:

    If you are going to be out less than four weeks, full tuition is due to hold your spot.

    If you are going to be out four weeks or more, you can hold your child's spot by paying 1/2 of the your current weekly tuition.

    You can withdraw your child and contact us to check availability when you are ready to come back.

    My work is only requiring 5 hours of work for 8 hours of pay so I've taken to a schedule of working for an hour, checking on the kids or making lunch or getting the next activity set, then getting back to work for an hour.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  15. #15
    It's not a matter of prestige but supply. There's always tight space and waiting lists.

    Different programs have different responses. A friend's fired all of the teachers and stopped collecting tuition, but asked parents to chip in a bit for a fund to bridge to unemployment. Mine is one of the programs offering emergency care for critical workers (which I'm not) so they're half open. They are continuing to collect tuition and pay their teachers (with some modest online programming for older kids) and they're promising a rebate of sorts if government aid comes through. It's sucky either way but I'd prefer the teachers (who get paid shit) actually get a paycheck.

    My 5 year old is fine with modest needs but my 20 month old needs constant supervision. As a friend said, "So blessed to be a stay at home mom and be working full time. Who says you can't have it all?"
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  16. #16
    I thought one component of the rescue package was the SBA giving grants and/or no-interest loans to places like Day Care/Child Care facilities, so they can keep paying their employees even if they're furloughed or working part-time? That way they keep their employer-based Health insurance, don't stress the Unemployment Insurance system, and it frees their clients from having to pay OOP costs.

    Did I read that wrong?

  17. #17
    That's what it's supposed to do. How quickly it will do it is another matter. Lots of places already had to start making decisions or will have to make them before they've guaranteed they're going to get such money.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  18. #18
    It probably matters if employees are paid by salary, or hourly wages. That's how it panned out in the "essential" part of the restaurant sector, anyway. I just assumed there were special provisions for Child Care/Day Care operators, especially since first-responders need them in order to do their job. ??

    This state-by-state relief response is crazy. Some have enacted moratoriums on evictions, foreclosures, and utility shut-offs. Some have suspended all late fees and fines. Others haven't. Hard to keep up.
    Last edited by GGT; Yesterday at 03:07 AM.

  19. #19
    Seeing as the states aren't all responding the same way, it's perhaps not so crazy. You can't expect the same relief response in a state which hasn't enacted a stay-at-home order shutting down everything non-essential as one which has, for instance.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Seeing as the states aren't all responding the same way, it's perhaps not so crazy. You can't expect the same relief response in a state which hasn't enacted a stay-at-home order shutting down everything non-essential as one which has, for instance.
    Yes, of course. But the federal response hasn't been so nuanced -- they're sending money to almost every household -- because it would take too long otherwise. In the meantime, the states that don't think they have a disaster at their door aren't preparing, and it's business as usual. That just doesn't make sense from a viral perspective, let alone a coordinated Public Health response.

    If you can't fly into JFK or O'Hare or Miami, just rebook your flight to Bozeman, Montana or Paducha, Kentucky and rent a car?
    Last edited by GGT; Yesterday at 04:12 AM.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I thought one component of the rescue package was the SBA giving grants and/or no-interest loans to places like Day Care/Child Care facilities, so they can keep paying their employees even if they're furloughed or working part-time? That way they keep their employer-based Health insurance, don't stress the Unemployment Insurance system, and it frees their clients from having to pay OOP costs.

    Did I read that wrong?
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    That's what it's supposed to do. How quickly it will do it is another matter. Lots of places already had to start making decisions or will have to make them before they've guaranteed they're going to get such money.
    LF is right. We've been shut down for two weeks and it'll probably be a few more at a minimum before any aid is coming. We use a moderately large daycare provider. My guess is that they have at least 30 staff, and monthly payroll costs are somewhere on the order of $100-200k, not even taking into account things like facilities costs and the like. They might be able to swallow that kind of loss for a few weeks, but any more and I'd bet they'll be in serious trouble.

    I'm not sure using the unemployment system is a better solution, but it does give the parents some relief when they're stuck at home with their kids for 6-8 weeks. I just sent in a $4k tuition payment for a month of school that is not going to exist.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

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