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Thread: The Clown Circus

  1. #211
    Only lewk would be dumb enough to see police brutality and consider it a liberal politcal issue.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  2. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Only lewk would be dumb enough to see police brutality and consider it a liberal politcal issue.
    You haven't been paying attention if you think the purpose of this is police brutality. That's the theoretical reason, but the laundry list of demands that various protest groups have been making are pretty far afield from police brutality. People are using the original reason for a variety of agendas.

  3. #213
    Like you use Christianity to justify your racism? What does your selective media consumption have to do with this? Thats the only way I see you being dumb to think fringe groups piggybacking on BLM somehow diminishes the stance against police brutality.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  4. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Absolutely entertainment gold y'all. I love the situation. If a bunch of people died to Covid I'll get bash liberals for killing people off for their political protests, if a bunch of people don't die from Covid we'll know that its time to open back up everything.
    Both would be incorrect, and nobody would take you any more seriously than they do now. Like I said—you're a very stupid man.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Absolutely entertainment gold y'all. I love the situation. If a bunch of people died to Covid I'll get bash liberals for killing people off for their political protests, if a bunch of people don't die from Covid we'll know that its time to open back up everything.
    So if and when a bunch of people die to Covid you're going to insist it's because thousands protested rather than million resuming their normal face-to-face routines Despite the data showing the numbers climbing as state reopened well before the protests started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You haven't been paying attention if you think the purpose of this is police brutality. That's the theoretical reason, but the laundry list of demands that various protest groups have been making are pretty far afield from police brutality. People are using the original reason for a variety of agendas.
    You mean like your demand to abolish all unions?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  6. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    We now know he broke the rules, and he will face no sanctions for his violations; not only that, but he has instead received the govt's support, and the AG has interceded on his behalf with a false assertion of innocence. All because of who he is and who he happens to know—arbitrary advantages not enjoyed by most people in the UK. Whether or not you, personally, consider this to be a problem isn't all that relevant. The question is whether a significant proportion of the British public considers it to be a problem.
    It is my understanding that anyone who violated this rule and was not first warned by the police, and then ticketed has received the same advantages enjoyed by Cummings - which is to say no penalty at all. I am not aware of people receiving these fixed penalty citations after-the-fact for having been found out, nor am I aware of after-the-fact investigations into those that have violated these rules.

    You might personally think that a cop who tickets you for speeding is exercising legitimate authority, but a person belonging to a non-white minority, who keeps getting stopped and hassled—and perhaps even searched—over and over again, for similar conduct—or for no good reason at all—may have a different view of police legitimacy.
    They certainly might, and perhaps with good reason. That doesn't mean that enforcing the law erodes police legitimacy.

    People in positions of authority are—and should be—held to higher standards.
    I don't disagree with this. What I'm not sure of is if this warrants resignation. That seems like it is something to be decided between Boris Johnson and Cummings, and to some degree the British people.

    Something like 40% of working age adults in the UK have £100 or less in savings. For much of my childhood, adolescence and youth, a £30 fine would have been a heavy financial blow to both me and to my mother. I know you try to be a good dude, so, instead of saying something mean, I'd like to encourage you to be less egocentric in your analysis of the world.
    The purpose of the fine is ostensibly to drive behavior change and act in some way as a deterrent. So, from a public policy standpoint, what would be a penalty that would not be too onerous a burden for a working class individual, still affect behavior change, and be enforceable by the police? Is it £10? £20? I don't claim to know what that number is - do you?

    And this is disregarding entirely the directive to first warn and then fine. If £30 would be a heavy financial blow, I would certainly do my best not to violate the rule. And if I was warned I would do my best to comply.

    Why should Wolf resign? His participation in the protest has probably only served to bolster his credibility as a leader, by showing that he considers this to be an issue worth risking your life over. Moreover, 3 weeks is a very long time in the context of an epidemic, and pretty much every single person at that protest—Wolf included—wore a mask. The anti-lockdown protesters were permitted to protest, despite the stay-at-home order.
    Because I was under the impression that part of the furor, at least in posts I read from Tim, Steely, Flixy, and to some extent you, revolved around the impact this has on credibility. If the government is creating rules and expecting citizens to follow them, then in turn disregarding them entirely in the highest offices, both the rules and those that make them lose credibility. Rules that as you rightly noted imposed considerable psychological pressure and pain, never mind an extreme financial burden on the average citizen. It creates, if nothing else, the perception of bias in how enforcement will be handled. Do you not see how it is problematic for the governor to vilify his political opponents for placing public health at risk, and indeed threatening to withhold important federal coronavirus relief money from them, while turning around and flaunting the same restrictions himself? Not just acknowledging that protesters have the right to protest, regardless of their political bent, but instead saying that it is on the one hand good for one group, (that happen to likely be his supporters) to do so in violation of the rules he himself imposed, but on the other hand bad and dangerous for his opposition to be afforded those same rights? The fact that these protesters also happen to make up his political base, and not his political opposition doesn't bolster his credibility as a leader - it destroys it. Going out of your way to appeal to your base doesn't show courage, and decrying the rights of your political opposition isn't a measure of leadership as I understand it. He is apparently willing to threaten and vilify his rivals and cheer on his base - regardless of the devastating impact it might have on the most vulnerable communities.

    I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion about the numbers of people at that protest who wore a mask. In the headline picture posted with the article there are at least 3 people who have a mask but are not wearing them properly, and at least one person who has nothing at all. In a subsequent picture many people either don't have a mask, might *have* masks, but are either not wearing them correctly or not having them cover their face in any meaningful way. Regardless, you and I both know that wearing a cloth mask during a protest of this size and density of the crowds does not offer adequate protection, count as sufficient social distancing, or is safe according to our best knowledge of how this virus spreads, but people seeing this might believe it to be. What signal do you think it sends to the public if they see a septuagenarian governor walking shoulder to shoulder with huge crowds with nothing more than a mask on his face? Does that speak truth to the very real risks and dangers of the pandemic, especially to the most at risk populations? Do you think that makes them take his social distancing recommendations more or less seriously?
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 06-07-2020 at 01:01 AM.

  7. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    So if and when a bunch of people die to Covid you're going to insist it's because thousands protested rather than million resuming their normal face-to-face routines Despite the data showing the numbers climbing as state reopened well before the protests started.



    You mean like your demand to abolish all unions?
    1. State re-opening still have restrictions in place.
    2. Even in places where most restrictions are gone, individuals and businesses are taking common sense precautions like asking customers to wear masks, cleaning surfaces more regularly, avoiding high repeat touch interfaces.
    3. LF given what you've seen on the news, the crowds that aren't social distancing and in a lot of cases no masks or clear improper use of masks. Do you think people will die from the protests? And if so how many minorities are you OK with dying during these protests?

    To your other comment...

    I have *never* suggested all unions be abolished. I have particular ire for government unions and have no problem with voluntary grouping of people. Of course as always I'm not a hypocrite, voluntary grouping of people be they business owners or people in the labor market to set price for the good or service they are providing for should be free from government intrusion.

  8. #218
    Get over it Aimless there's far more important things going on than "man went for drive" in the world.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    You haven't been paying attention if you think the purpose of this is police brutality. That's the theoretical reason, but the laundry list of demands that various protest groups have been making are pretty far afield from police brutality. People are using the original reason for a variety of agendas.
    Forget other things people always jump on bandwagons with their own issues.

    Are you prepared to say police brutality and extrajudicial killings of unarmed people needs to stop? Yes or no?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  10. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Forget other things people always jump on bandwagons with their own issues.

    Are you prepared to say police brutality and extrajudicial killings of unarmed people needs to stop? Yes or no?
    Yes. Reality though means you'll never have a system where 800,000 people in *any* profession are going to be perfect. I support common sense reforms to end police brutality.

    1. Body cams with far harsher penalties for them being off or "malfunctioning" during critical times. With how well connected everything is these days any sort of mal-function should be instantly detected and require the officer to get it fixed.
    2. End police unions, they just protect bad cops.
    3. Increase spending on body armor that will protect police better from being fired on. Less concern about dying to someone pulling a gun and we can get less fearful trigger responses.
    4. Eliminate victimless crime to minimize the needless interaction. Legalize drugs. Legalize sex work. Legalize gambling.
    5. Harsher sentencing for those resisting arrest, creating an incentive not to become physical or flee.

  11. #221
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    Nice, too bad that according to the police any action or lack of action has been and will be intetpreted as resistance.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  12. #222
    Oh and end civil forfeiture. That is Grade A Bull shit.

  13. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    ...What I'm not sure of is if this warrants resignation. That seems like it is something to be decided between Boris Johnson and Cummings, and to some degree the British people.
    Exactly. And it sounds like Brits want to hold their elected leaders to a higher standard, where hypocrisy and lying aren't tolerated, especially during a global pandemic. What's confusing to me is why you don't think that's worthy of international news, yet here you are.

    I snipped the rest of your post (pertaining to PA Gov. Wolf) because you're conflating some things between pandemic policy and politics. The red/yellow/green phases are clearly outlined at pa.gov, and the limits on gathering sizes were for indoor businesses (which the state and municipality legally licenses and regulates). Also, Universal Masking is recommended but voluntary.

    The localities he was criticizing wanted to ignore the whole plan and move to green on their own (Lancaster County). And a re-open campaign was started by an NRA off-shoot group https://action.pennsylvaniafirearmsa...olfs-shutdown/ that just doesn't like teh gummint telling people what to do under normal circumstances, let alone a health crisis. Wolf didn't block the Reopen PA protests and marches at the capitol, or order anyone to be arrested for violating rules.

    Even restaurants that started dine-in service (under yellow) just got citations from the Health Dept, with a warning that could lead to fines and/or revoking their license to operate, but no one was arrested. You may not like how PA handled things, but Wolf has a fairly high rating from Pennsylvanians who think his county-by-county phased strategy (with plenty of waivers and exclusions) was smart and consistent, and moving to less restrictions was based on health data.

    Since he's the Governor for the whole state, he was almost obligated (as a political leader) to march against racial discrimination and police brutality. At least it was outside, and he wore a mask.

  14. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I snipped the rest of your post (pertaining to PA Gov. Wolf) because you're conflating some things between pandemic policy and politics. The red/yellow/green phases are clearly outlined at pa.gov, and the limits on gathering sizes were for indoor businesses (which the state and municipality legally licenses and regulates). Also, Universal Masking is recommended but voluntary.
    Erm, I am certainly not a Pennsylvania resident, so it is entirely possible I am mistaken, but the guidelines nowhere state that the restrictions on the size of gatherings is limited to indoor businesses. Quite to the contrary - there are rules specific to businesses and separate rules for social gatherings. The prohibition is in the latter category of social gatherings, not the former of work/congregate rules.

    The localities he was criticizing wanted to ignore the whole plan and move to green on their own (Lancaster County). And a re-open campaign was started by an NRA off-shoot group https://action.pennsylvaniafirearmsa...olfs-shutdown/ that just doesn't like teh gummint telling people what to do under normal circumstances, let alone a health crisis. Wolf didn't block the Reopen PA protests and marches at the capitol, or order anyone to be arrested for violating rules.
    I have news for you - localities unilaterally moving to green on their own would still have had harsher restrictions and better protections in place than any protest that I have seen. The impact of COVID-19 in those areas was already negligible. On the other hand, endorsing protests made up primarily by your supporters as doing the, "right thing," during a pandemic, while threatening to stop federal funds from going to your political opposition isn't enforcing the rules evenly, and it certainly isn't looking after black lives.

    Even restaurants that started dine-in service (under yellow) just got citations from the Health Dept, with a warning that could lead to fines and/or revoking their license to operate, but no one was arrested. You may not like how PA handled things, but Wolf has a fairly high rating from Pennsylvanians who think his county-by-county phased strategy (with plenty of waivers and exclusions) was smart and consistent, and moving to less restrictions was based on health data.

    Since he's the Governor for the whole state, he was almost obligated (as a political leader) to march against racial discrimination and police brutality. At least it was outside, and he wore a mask.
    I'm lost here - he was obligated to break the rules he put in place for everyone else to stop a dangerous pandemic, tell the protesters they are doing the right thing, and give the wrong health message to the most vulnerable populations, because doing so somehow makes a substantive impact on police brutality? Here's the sad fact - COVID-19 has killed, in just a few short months, orders of magnitude more people in this country than the police in all of 2019 - many of those likely justifiable to one degree or another. COVID-19 disproportionately impacts minority communities. Supporting public health rules, if in no other way than leading by example, that would save minority lives seems like a no brainer if you care about black and minority lives.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 06-08-2020 at 07:04 PM.

  15. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I will say that Britain is always on the verge of becoming a police state.
    Click to view the full version

    I've been telling myself for about a week now I'm not petty enough to do this, but let's be honest, I absolutely am that petty.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  16. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Erm, I am certainly not a Pennsylvania resident, so it is entirely possible I am mistaken, but the guidelines nowhere state that the restrictions on the size of gatherings is limited to indoor businesses. Quite to the contrary - there are rules specific to businesses and separate rules for social gatherings. The prohibition is in the latter category of social gatherings, not the former of work/congregate rules.
    Maybe you're really complaining about PA's definition of "essential vs non-essential" that forced businesses to shut down, or what a social gathering means? (There's a nice pdf that changed with waivers and exemptions, if you're interested). People found ways to have social gatherings outdoors, including weddings without the wedding planner or florist (who were closed). Even churches managed to hold services outdoors, or in parking lots with the sermon piped thru their car radio, even tho technically they were "closed".

    I can understand the logic behind closing certain business as a way to discourage the virus from spreading. And using a local/county/regional approach that recognizes the differences b/w city-suburb-rural areas....while understanding that people will move across county or state lines (if they have less restrictions), which defeats the purpose. If you've got better ideas I'd love to hear them.

    I have news for you - localities unilaterally moving to green on their own would still have had harsher restrictions and better protections in place than any protest that I have seen. The impact of COVID-19 in those areas was already negligible. On the other hand, endorsing protests made up primarily by your supporters as doing the, "right thing," during a pandemic, while threatening to stop federal funds from going to your political opposition isn't enforcing the rules evenly, and it certainly isn't looking after black lives.
    Some places that wanted to move to green didn't want ANY restrictions. Some yahoos even posted signs saying "NO MASKS ALLOWED" Anyway, I have news for you -- threatening to withhold state or federal funds for political purposes isn't a new thing, it's been done for decades and practically defines how politicians "negotiate". Yeah, it sucks. Got a better idea for that, too?

    I'm lost here - he was obligated to break the rules he put in place for everyone else to stop a dangerous pandemic, tell the protesters they are doing the right thing, and give the wrong health message to the most vulnerable populations, because doing so somehow makes a substantive impact on police brutality? Here's the sad fact - COVID-19 has killed, in just a few short months, orders of magnitude more people in this country than the police in all of 2019 - many of those likely justifiable to one degree or another. COVID-19 disproportionately impacts minority communities. Supporting public health rules, if in no other way than leading by example, that would save minority lives seems like a no brainer if you care about black and minority lives.
    Everyone has to do what they think is right, weighing the risks and benefits, and that includes elected officials. Wolf would have gotten flak no matter what he did. But the truth is he's been working on inequities in healthcare, especially for minority groups, since he got elected.

    What bothers me more is that Public Health has been politicized and weaponized, just like the Police. When we have an epidemic within a pandemic, you suddenly want to point out the inconsistencies in policy? The fact that it's a "bad time" to protest doesn't mean they can or should wait. It's reached a tipping point, and delaying justice even longer is almost like saying just shut up and dribble.

    Now, if you really want to criticize political leaders who don't follow their own rules or policies, and send the wrong message to the public.....Trump should be at the top of your list.

  17. #227
    Making the rounds again, for obvious reasons:



    http://archive.spectator.co.uk/artic...the-guilt-trip
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #228
    I don't see how it is physically possible to not hate a man who writes like that. What a prick.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  19. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I don't see how it is physically possible to not hate a man who writes like that. What a prick.
    This is true.

    The sooner he's gone the better. My gut is that he'll step down at the beginning of next year, blaming health issues. That way he'll be able to say he delivered the great Brexit victory, but leave just in time to deal with all the shite that comes with it.

  20. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Maybe you're really complaining about PA's definition of "essential vs non-essential" that forced businesses to shut down, or what a social gathering means? (There's a nice pdf that changed with waivers and exemptions, if you're interested). People found ways to have social gatherings outdoors, including weddings without the wedding planner or florist (who were closed). Even churches managed to hold services outdoors, or in parking lots with the sermon piped thru their car radio, even tho technically they were "closed".

    I can understand the logic behind closing certain business as a way to discourage the virus from spreading. And using a local/county/regional approach that recognizes the differences b/w city-suburb-rural areas....while understanding that people will move across county or state lines (if they have less restrictions), which defeats the purpose. If you've got better ideas I'd love to hear them.
    I think I have been pretty clear in what I am really complaining about. There were defined restrictions put in place to limit the size of social gatherings in Pennsylvania - restrictions that were instituted by the governor. In the city he decided to march with protesters in, his restrictions prevented social gatherings larger than 25. The protest obviously violated those restrictions, and often in very unsafe ways. This was not an example of sitting in an enclosed vehicle in a church parking lot, properly socially distanced kind of a protest.

    Do you think people seeing the person who put those rules in place publicly violating them strengthens or weakens the efficacy of the rules? What does it do to the public trust when the governor threatens the protests of his political opponents, ostensibly for reasons of public health, and embraces the protests of his political base? One gets threats of funds being withheld, the other receives atta-boys - does that seem like leadership to you?

    Some places that wanted to move to green didn't want ANY restrictions. Some yahoos even posted signs saying "NO MASKS ALLOWED" Anyway, I have news for you -- threatening to withhold state or federal funds for political purposes isn't a new thing, it's been done for decades and practically defines how politicians "negotiate". Yeah, it sucks. Got a better idea for that, too?
    Sure - during a pandemic don't hold public health hostage, and don't then shoot yourself in the foot by completely, and publicly discrediting your own health policy when you find it politically expedient to do so.

    Now, if you really want to criticize political leaders who don't follow their own rules or policies, and send the wrong message to the public.....Trump should be at the top of your list.
    I am hard pressed to think of a single instance where I have supported Trump - certainly I have found nothing he has done during the pandemic to be laudable - maybe you would care to dig some up. But if you want to set your bar at Trump for what you expect from a politician then I can see why you aren't upset. That is probably the single most damning comparison you could have made for Wolfe though.
    Last edited by Enoch the Red; 06-14-2020 at 05:33 PM.

  21. #231
    Enoch, this thread started as The Clown Circus in the UK (Boris and Cummings). You popped in to say you didn't understand why some Brits were complaining about elected leaders not following rules they put in place. Maybe you thought they were making a big deal out of a minor infraction, or you just didn't like their rules. Hard to tell.

    Then you cited Wolf as an example of hypocrisy that really matters -- since he joined protesters, which violated rules against large gatherings -- without recognizing the significance of the protests themselves? That's a mistake. This pandemic will test *every* elected official, their role-modeling, and leadership style. It's an historic time where the "new" rules don't fit neatly into the "old" rules playbook.

    Even the UK has protests for BLM which don't comply with Health & Safety pandemic protocols. I'm not sure if any UK elected officials are participating, but it wouldn't surprise me if some are. Holding politicians to a "higher" standard can get pretty messy, especially if you expect ideological perfection.

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