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Thread: Hong Kong

  1. #31
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    Aimless, even though I share your concerns about the capacity of the British government to not entirely live up to its promises, that does not mean that once these people are residents, they are voters too. And that is a significant protection all by itself.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  2. #32
    It is indeed. What government is going to bring over potentially millions of people who are immediately eligible to vote - and then f**k them over?

    Indeed I've seen some on the left suggest that the government is only wanting to bring over people from Hong Kong precisely because they can vote immediately and they think its a conspiracy because they think these are more likely to vote Tory so this is some ploy to import more Tory voters. A rather perverse and twisted response to what is going on over there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #33
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    There is the little matter of the granting of residence. Having visa free travel is not enough.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  4. #34
    The only thing that surprises me more than the UK not being more forceful in its response to China's treaty violation is the fact that offering to give residency to X million Hong Kongers (which I think is right/smart) has provoked such a typically childish outburst from the Chinese Communists.

  5. #35
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    And what forceful response the British could have afforded ?
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  6. #36
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    Any bets on the PRC shutting down the British Consulate General in Hong Kong?
    Trump: Lock him up.

  7. #37
    This can't be right, the UK is saving all HKers

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #38
    That's a lot less expensive than most other countries as far as I understand and that includes all fees added up together including paying to the NHS and processing citizenship. I don't think anyone suggested it would be done for free did they?

    They're probably expected to buy plane tickets too. And pay rent or buy a home. And pay for food. But no medicine, they'll have paid for the NHS already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #39
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    Actually in the Netherlands the whole process from first application to citizenship would cost between €1.500 and €2.000 for a couple with two children . And that's most of the fees would probably be waived for the same family if they're pretty much invited by the government because conditions back home became unbearable.

    On a different note; I think it's time for me to move my business away from HSBC. It won't bankrupt them, but their support for the crushing of civil liberty in Hong Kong is taking it to the next level.
    Last edited by Hazir; 07-23-2020 at 11:49 AM.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's a lot less expensive than most other countries as far as I understand and that includes all fees added up together including paying to the NHS and processing citizenship. I don't think anyone suggested it would be done for free did they?

    They're probably expected to buy plane tickets too. And pay rent or buy a home. And pay for food. But no medicine, they'll have paid for the NHS already.
    It exposes the promise of salvation as an empty one. The UK isn't honoring its obligations—it's just trying to get praise for trying to attract upper-/upper middle class HKers whom they'll squeeze for money. Relocation costs, visa fees, ILR fees, health surcharge—on top of national insurance—while also trying to make a living that covers housing, food, transportation, etc—this is a truly onerous burden for an ordinary citizen of HK.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #41
    Real life has burdens *shrug*

    You expected HMG to pick up the tab for relocation costs? I didn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Real life has burdens *shrug*

    You expected HMG to pick up the tab for relocation costs? I didn't.
    No you tool, I expect your govt. to waive visa, ILR & additional health fees for people to whom it says it has an obligation and that it has invited over ostensibly in order to save them from Chinese oppression. When you dismissively say "real life has burdens" and shrug, it's an illustration of how short the distance is between you and Lewkowski.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #43
    There's a massive difference. I'm happy for anyone who wants to pay their own way to come here to do so. Lewk wants to separate families who have done so, lock them in cages and send goons in to beat them up. You don't see a difference?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's a lot less expensive than most other countries as far as I understand and that includes all fees added up together including paying to the NHS and processing citizenship. I don't think anyone suggested it would be done for free did they?

    They're probably expected to buy plane tickets too. And pay rent or buy a home. And pay for food. But no medicine, they'll have paid for the NHS already.
    What are you talking about? US fees are in the very low thousands. Even if you add a lawyer to the mix, it's well below $10k.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #45
    Including healthcare?

    As I said that's summing everything including healthcare charges up, much of which will be spread out over years not paid upfront, and is from start through to being a citizen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Including healthcare?

    As I said that's summing everything including healthcare charges up, much of which will be spread out over years not paid upfront, and is from start through to being a citizen.
    I didn't have to pay anything up front for healthcare as a student in the UK. Why should these people? Presumably they'll be paying taxes once they get a job, which is how everyone else in the country pays for healthcare.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #47
    I think you were a student before it was introduced. It was introduced by the Coalition Government in 2015 to deal with "health tourism" and as a student you would have to pay now if you were coming for more than six months but be able to pay a reduced rate.

    There is no individual tax that pays for healthcare. This is one tax that contributes same as all other taxes. The idea of double-taxation is no different to double-taxation when you sell a home, or die and leave an estate or plenty of other occasions that warrant additional taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  18. #48
    Why should these people pay any more for healthcare than a native Briton?

    The healthcare fee for non-European students is 150 pounds/year by the way: https://www.studyinternational.com/h...ional-students
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #49
    Because they're not citizens and are choosing to come here so are charged accordingly.

    The government taxes virtually anything and everything it can, there's no difference here.

    Do you think the only tax is on working? That's naive if so.

    Why should someone who buys petrol pay a duty on that?
    Why should someone who buys petrol pay VAT on the duty as well as the petrol?
    Why should someone who sells shares pay a tax on that?
    Why should someone who dies pay a tax on that?
    Why should someone who employs others pay a tax on that?
    Why should someone who buys a property pay a tax on that?
    Why should someone who sells a property pay a tax on that?
    I could go on and on and on if you want me to. That's what HMRC does.

    Once you start pulling on that string there's no end to it. If you do something, anything, there's likely a tax to HMRC there somewhere. Moving to the UK may attract a tax, but so too can moving within the UK too. The government taxes everything it can tax. If you don't want to pay taxes your only option is to basically be a hermit and not do anything ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #50
    Except a 14k "tax" makes it virtually impossible for anyone outside of the upper middle class to come to your country, which is a weird criterion when you're ostensibly doing this to help people flee repression. You think the upper middle class is the one being oppressed the most in Hong Kong?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #51
    Its not a 14k tax. Its 14k in many, many years summing up all sorts of fees and taxes all added together into one headline figure. Funnily enough we're getting hundreds of thousands annually coming to the UK and paying these fees and taxes, not all of whom are 'upper middle class'.

    I expect over a course of years everyone on average pays well, well, well over 14k in taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    I think you were a student before it was introduced. It was introduced by the Coalition Government in 2015 to deal with "health tourism" and as a student you would have to pay now if you were coming for more than six months but be able to pay a reduced rate.
    Ie. there's no compelling reason not to waive the fee for HKers.

    There is no individual tax that pays for healthcare. This is one tax that contributes same as all other taxes.
    For individuals, a very large part of the NHS contribution is via the national insurance, which accounts for almost 20% of the NHS's funding—and which HKers would be required to pay.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Its not a 14k tax. Its 14k in many, many years summing up all sorts of fees and taxes all added together into one headline figure.
    Visa fee, ILR fee, IHS and processing fees are not expected to be spread out over "many, many years". You pay the visa fee and IHS when you apply for the visa, in this case likely the ancestry visa—which means an upfront IHS payment of £2000 (set to increase to £3,120) per applicant on top of the visa fee. You pay the ILR fee when you apply for that. The bulk of that estimated £14k is not amortized over many years.

    Funnily enough we're getting hundreds of thousands annually coming to the UK and paying these fees and taxes, not all of whom are 'upper middle class'.
    Only a small minority of non-EU long-term migrants attain indefinite leave to remain, let alone citizenship. Probably a majority of those who do settle do so for family reasons—ie. the cost for one person is shared by at least two people, as opposed to two people (at least) having to pay large sums upfront. Family migration from poorer countries has dropped sharply—in no small part due to their working class British spouses not being able to afford to bring them over.

    I expect over a course of years everyone on average pays well, well, well over 14k in taxes.
    This represents large lump sum payments on top of that spending—a substantial portion of an individual's disposable income.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Because they're not citizens and are choosing to come here so are charged accordingly.
    Here I thought they were being compelled to flee a dangerous, repressive govt., invited by a British govt. that purportedly wants to fulfill its obligations towards the people it abandoned to China. But now you tell me it's a "choice"—that they simply have to "choose" to have a lot of money and "choose" to move.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #53
    They're not being compelled to flee. They aren't being bulldozed, they're not refugees. But China changed the rules of the game so we are giving them a choice to come over if they want to do so. Yes its a choice. We're not sending goons over to pressgang people and force them to come, its their choice if they want to or not.

    NI part pays for the NHS yes but so too do a plethora of other taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They're not being compelled to flee. They aren't being bulldozed, they're not refugees. But China changed the rules of the game so we are giving them a choice to come over if they want to do so. Yes its a choice. We're not sending goons over to pressgang people and force them to come, its their choice if they want to or not.

    NI part pays for the NHS yes but so too do a plethora of other taxes.
    I'll wait for you to address the remaining criticism of your ridiculous arguments.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #55
    No compelling reason not to waive the tax: I'd have no objection to doing so but no compelling reason to need to do so either.

    NI: I addressed this.

    Fees spread out or up front: Actually that original thread that started this mentioned that the scheme had different options to spread payments out over the years rather than all up front. Yes there will be some up front money.

    Minority achieve citizenship: Not sure how this is criticism or to respond. Some people come temporarily then return to their own nation. Ok. And? Citizenship if you want to settle permanently becomes cheaper than extending a temporary visa permanently and comes with extra rights and responsibilities but if you don't want to do that then that's your choice. We shouldn't force people to be citizens it should be an option for those that want it.

    Fewer poor migration by people who can't support themselves: Good. That was why it was changed so working as intended.

    More migration by people who can support themselves: Good. Working as intended.

    Substantial portion of disposable income: Yeah moving internationally generally is. It's not a choice to make lightly.

    Choice: I addressed this.

    There we go. Everything responded to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No compelling reason not to waive the tax: I'd have no objection to doing so but no compelling reason to need to do so either.
    There's an extremely compelling reason; not waiving these fees means your offer is not in any meaningful sense an "open door"—as you framed it earlier on in this thread—and it severely restricts many HKers ability to flee Chinese oppression. You yourself framed it as needing to flee, so you should acknowledge that this is not an ordinary form of voluntary migration.

    I addressed this.
    You did not adequately address this issue. Your initial claim about how the NHS is funded was misleading. More importantly, HKers will be required to pay NI, which—for most ordinary individuals—constitute a substantial contribution to the NHS, along with VAT and other taxes that also contribute to the NHS. Having to pay a £2-3k health surcharge on top of this is an unjustifiable burden if you're going to make it look like you're opening the door for them—esp. considering they have not burdened the UK's public finances up until this point. They should be receiving tax credits rather than being required to pay fees.

    Fees spread out or up front: Actually that original thread that started this mentioned that the scheme had different options to spread payments out over the years rather than all up front. Yes there will be some up front money.
    It says no such thing. It says that applicants will have the option of applying for a 5 year ancestry visa or apply twice for 30-month visas; that's not "spread out", it's two burdensome applications that will require payment upfront for each application. When you say "spread out payments over the years" that implies manageable, regular payments—eg. monthly or annual payments. What the UK is offering is not that. The latter option is marginally more manageable, but it is also riskier, because it leaves less affluent HKers in the UK more exposed to the risk of rule changes, which the UK is notorious for.

    Minority achieve citizenship: Not sure how this is criticism or to respond. Some people come temporarily then return to their own nation. Ok. And?
    It means your claim—that this is no big deal because "hundreds of thousands" of people are voluntarily coming to the UK annually in this manner—is bullshit. Far fewer than 200k are coming to the UK and achieving settled status—let alone citizenship—under the same conditions as those that will apply to families from HK. Even if that weren't the case, it would hardly qualify as "opening the door".

    Fewer poor migration by people who can't support themselves: Good. That was why it was changed so working as intended.

    More migration by people who can support themselves: Good. Working as intended.
    In other words, you're not "opening the door" to working class and regular middle-class HKers. You could've just acknowledged that instead of lying about it.

    Substantial portion of disposable income: Yeah moving internationally generally is. It's not a choice to make lightly.
    Which is why your asinine half-assed argument about people paying more than £14k in taxes over time is stupid.

    Choice: I addressed this.
    Are they fleeing out of need or out of choice? Are they fleeing out of choice or because they have money? When your alternatives are to stay and be subjected to cruel, totalitarian oppression, or flee, that's not much of a choice. When your ability to flee is restricted by your socioeconomic status, that, too, is not much of a choice. The UK can make it more of a choice, for HKers—by waiving these onerous fees and not forcing them to go through a protracted and risky immigration process.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #57
    That's a lot of words to say you don't think people should have to pay tax. In an ideal world it would be nice if we had enough money they didn't have to.

    I'm not a big fan of tax either, I wish we didn't need to charge taxes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    That's a lot of words to say you don't think people should have to pay tax. In an ideal world it would be nice if we had enough money they didn't have to.

    I'm not a big fan of tax either, I wish we didn't need to charge taxes.
    Why are you illiterate, RB? Why? It is incredibly tiresome to see you obstruct every single discussion with what I can only assume is a deliberately cultivated functional illiteracy.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #59
    I'm not. We have some taxes here, you're objecting to them. I object to tax often too, it'd be nice to not have to pay taxes but the state needs money. If you have a good idea of what could be cut so we don't have to charge these taxes I'd love to hear it.

    Or was there a problem I forgot to address other than the tax? It all seemed to be about the taxes, other than the money I think everything else has been addressed.

    I have no principled reason to support this tax other than the country needs money to pay for the NHS and this is a scheme to make money for the NHS paid for by people willing to voluntarily pay this tax. I have no principled reason to want high taxes, taxes should be as low as necessary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #60
    He's not objecting to tax. He's objecting to the amount of tax required by a government that is supposedly making it easy and feasible for HKers to settle in the UK.

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