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Thread: Why Police are Needed

  1. #31
    In most states it takes longer (in required hours) to become a hairdresser than a police officer.

    Cute graph in here that explains what that training is spent on to, which is commonly pointed out as one of the problems people have with the way the police are managed.

    According to the report in that link they get about a week's worth of training concerning law, but more than double that for firearms and self defense.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-22-2020 at 04:34 PM.
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  2. #32
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    When was the last time the police did anything for you that you consider helpful ?
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  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    In most states it takes longer (in required hours) to become a hairdresser than a police officer.

    Cute graph in here that explains what that training is spent on to, which is commonly pointed out as one of the problems people have with the way the police are managed.

    According to the report in that link they get about a week's worth of training concerning law, but more than double that for firearms and self defense.
    The absolute insanity of lengthy licensing and education requirements for being a hairdresser is a classic example of government overreach. It creates artificial barriers of entry, driving up prices for the consumer.

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    The absolute insanity of lengthy licensing and education requirements for being a hairdresser is a classic example of government overreach. It creates artificial barriers of entry, driving up prices for the consumer.
    But it might be a fair criticism that agents of the state involved directly in the use of force against its citizens might require more in the way of training than they currently get.

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    But it might be a fair criticism that agents of the state involved directly in the use of force against its citizens might require more in the way of training than they currently get.
    I'm actually OK with providing more funding for training.

  6. #36
    I think the training length question is an interesting one. Let's look at recruit training for militaries. They're typically on the order of 3-6 months depending on the military and specialty. And there, you probably should be learning more than a typical police officer. Is this an adequate amount of time? Almost certainly not. I think the assumption (perhaps even explicitly so) is that additional training will happen in their units over time. Is this the standard in police departments in the US? I haven't a clue, but I would hope so. Certainly the partner system seems to be designed to work as a mentorship/training program for rookies, and I hope there are more formal opportunities for additional training.

    I think the question has less to do with the specific type or length of training (which doubtless could be improved) and more to do with norms in the departments about use of force, interactions with minorities, etc. It really doesn't matter how much training you have if contradictory behavior is widely accepted in practice.
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  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    They're typically on the order of 3-6 months depending on the military and specialty
    Basic training in the US Army is 6 months, where you learn how to be a solider, then you go and do AIT and learn how do whatever job you're going to do which can be anything up to a year.

    I think the question has less to do with the specific type or length of training (which doubtless could be improved) and more to do with norms in the departments about use of force, interactions with minorities, etc. It really doesn't matter how much training you have if contradictory behavior is widely accepted in practice.
    Yeah, this is the key point. Given the culture and how the training works right now, if you give them more training they're just going to come out better at murdering people.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    But it might be a fair criticism that agents of the state involved directly in the use of force against its citizens might require more in the way of training than they currently get.
    For criminals who don't wear gear as if they are at war with their own people we generally see prison time as an appropriate response. Why would this particular type of thug have a right to be treated with velvet gloves? Don't you think the risk of doing time in prison would be an incentive to keep these people on the straight and narrow?
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  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    For criminals who don't wear gear as if they are at war with their own people we generally see prison time as an appropriate response. Why would this particular type of thug have a right to be treated with velvet gloves? Don't you think the risk of doing time in prison would be an incentive to keep these people on the straight and narrow?
    Were you intending to quote me here? Not exactly sure the relevance if so.

  10. #40
    UK officers get an order of magnitude more training and none of that I suspect is firearms since our regular officers don't carry firearms only specialist units do.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Were you intending to quote me here? Not exactly sure the relevance if so.
    Well, unlike the two contributions after you, you were of the opinion that extra training would be the way to go about the problem of thuggery in blue. I was wondering why 'training' would be a better solution than a real chance to doing prison as a deterrant. If we expect it to work for civil criminals, we should expect it to work for criminals in blue.
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  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    UK officers get an order of magnitude more training and none of that I suspect is firearms since our regular officers don't carry firearms only specialist units do.
    Policing during the lock down doesn't exactly make it look like your police officers get trained to use common sense executing their powers.
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  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Policing during the lock down doesn't exactly make it look like your police officers get trained to use common sense executing their powers.
    No system is perfect but not getting routine reports extrajudicial murder by officers of the state should be progress.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No system is perfect but not getting routine reports extrajudicial murder by officers of the state should be progress.
    I will grant you that.
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  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Yeah, this is the key point. Given the culture and how the training works right now, if you give them more training they're just going to come out better at murdering people.
    It might—might!—discourage many people who are poorly suited to the roles police would ideally play in a functioning and decent society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    Were you intending to quote me here? Not exactly sure the relevance if so.
    He's saying if cops knew they risk going to prison for their thuggery, they might behave better without requiring extensive training. Ofc Lewk's plan to teach all cops aikido is going to req. much more time.

    EDIT: scooped... even "thuggery", it's uncanny and disturbing.
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  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    The police in the US are not underfunded. They're undertrained.

    You're also forgetting that the other social programs are underfunded because their money gets funneled to the police - your police force is funded at the expense of everything else.
    Bingo! Our police depts. have more training in using their weapons (and they have a shit ton of weaponry) than de-escalation tactics. They also have authority without accountability because of "conditional immunity" set into law. Not to mention that we have 18,000 law enforcement agencies, with ~ 1 million police officers, across 50 states....with no continuity for standard practices. Requiring body-cams and banning choke holds only happens at the local level, apparently.

    There's no reason armed police should be giving traffic tickets, or responding to noise complaints, but they bump up their funding with fines and late-fee penalties that way (see Ferguson, MO). Tax dollars would be better spent on public Education, Healthcare, housing, infrastructure, or social programs aimed at eliminating poverty....but that's considered "welfare", or SSSocialism, or something. Yee Haw!

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Well, unlike the two contributions after you, you were of the opinion that extra training would be the way to go about the problem of thuggery in blue. I was wondering why 'training' would be a better solution than a real chance to doing prison as a deterrant. If we expect it to work for civil criminals, we should expect it to work for criminals in blue.
    It might help if you first knew my position - which is that I don’t have problems with police officers receiving prison time for committing crimes. I also don’t have a problem with changing the rules so police officers can be fired more easily. That doesn’t negate the fact that additional training, or different training, might also make a difference.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    It might help if you first knew my position - which is that I don’t have problems with police officers receiving prison time for committing crimes. I also don’t have a problem with changing the rules so police officers can be fired more easily. That doesn’t negate the fact that additional training, or different training, might also make a difference.
    Training people properly for the job they are supposed to do of course makes sense. But I have to presume that once a person is a police officer, that person is already trained. At which point I think that if that person violates the law, he/she should not be sent to a sensitivity training, but wind up in court and/or prison.

    This is why your call for extra training confuses me.
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  19. #49
    The idea of extra training is to prevent the law being broken in the first place, not to deal with it afterwards. Prevention is better than cure.

    If officers spend more time working on marksmanship than they do de-escalation is it any wonder they resort to firearms?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  20. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Training people properly for the job they are supposed to do of course makes sense. But I have to presume that once a person is a police officer, that person is already trained. At which point I think that if that person violates the law, he/she should not be sent to a sensitivity training, but wind up in court and/or prison.

    This is why your call for extra training confuses me.
    I don't really believe you think that, any more than you would think once a person has graduated from medical school and can practice medicine that they have received all the training and experience they will ever need. It's why police officers go through an additional probationary period with their FTO, and many are required to have continuing training and education every year.

  21. #51
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    You may believe that, but medical doctors get accused of malpractice and the typical punishment again is not to send them on a training. So while I am not against keeping police training up to date, I reject training as an alternative to disciplinary action, up to and including criminal charges.
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  22. #52
    Someone who has graduated medical school should be expected to not routinely violate the law.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You may believe that, but medical doctors get accused of malpractice and the typical punishment again is not to send them on a training. So while I am not against keeping police training up to date, I reject training as an alternative to disciplinary action, up to and including criminal charges.
    Who's suggesting training as an alternative to disciplinary action?

    Training as a method to prevent mistakes is an entirely different matter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #54
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    Interesting question. Why did the issue of training come up in a debate about thugs in blue?
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  25. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You may believe that, but medical doctors get accused of malpractice and the typical punishment again is not to send them on a training. So while I am not against keeping police training up to date, I reject training as an alternative to disciplinary action, up to and including criminal charges.
    Which has been suggested by me where exactly? In fact, for many police departments if an officer who is currently in the probationary period with their FTO, or who is in their first year gets into any trouble they can be fired immediately. Again, I have no problem with police who have committed a crime being sent to prison. I have no problem with removing unreasonable legal protections from police officers. With greater power comes commensurate responsibility.

  26. #56
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    Cool. So we all agree we should be talking about how to get criminals in blue behind bars.
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  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Cool. So we all agree we should be talking about how to get criminals in blue behind bars.
    I would wager even Lewk wants to be able to get criminals in blue behind bars.

    I don't think this is the edgy position you seem to believe it is.

  28. #58
    Which criminals do you believe Lewk wants to see behind bars?
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  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I would wager even Lewk wants to be able to get criminals in blue behind bars.

    I don't think this is the edgy position you seem to believe it is.
    In the midst of an epidemic of police brutality he saw fit to post a thread titled 'why police is needed'. But more important; politicians seem to be rather reluctant to retract special protection for thugs in blue. Their police unions have more of organized crime than they have of worker representation.
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  30. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Which criminals do you believe Lewk wants to see behind bars?
    Uppity nigger types who have ideas about leaving their God given place (well away from white enclaves) . Not thugs in blue who attribute no value to a human life.
    Trump: Lock him up.

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