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Thread: Why Police are Needed

  1. #1

    Default Why Police are Needed

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...one-liked.html

    "The rest of the horrific assault is not captured on video but the mother of the victim told 7News, she was then dragged to the ground and stomped on.

    In a Facebook comment, the distraught mum said her daughter was left bleeding from the nose and mouth, suffered broken ribs, severe bruising and a suspected broken cheekbone."

    That site blurs the faces here is the YT video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FPYyjcgb4

    Now this didn't happen in America however this is the quintessential reason why police are needed. There are evil violent monsters among us and police are needed to make sure they can't do this sort of violence with impunity.

  2. #2
    It is genuinely embarrassing that you think this has anything to do with policing.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  3. #3
    'Police are aware of footage of an assault at a train station circulating on social media,' a Victoria Police spokesperson told Daily Mail Australia.

    'Based on the information provided at this stage we have not been able to confirm if a complaint has been made in relation to the incident.'
    I mean, thank god these guys are here.

    There was another incident this month, where an aboriginal boy had his legs kicked out from under him by some roaming thugs and landed on his face and had to go to hospital. Luckily, however, the incident was caught on film and so the police where able to find the officers responsible and place them on administrative leave.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I mean, thank god these guys are here.

    There was another incident this month, where an aboriginal boy had his legs kicked out from under him by some roaming thugs and landed on his face and had to go to hospital. Luckily, however, the incident was caught on film and so the police where able to find the officers responsible and place them on administrative leave.
    Very nice
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #5
    Does this thread suggest lewk is dumb enough to think that defund means that there would be no police to investigate crimes like this? It's not like current police levels did anything to stop this from happening, so it's an extremely stupid example to use for why police are needed.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Does this thread suggest lewk is dumb enough to think that defund means that there would be no police to investigate crimes like this? It's not like current police levels did anything to stop this from happening, so it's an extremely stupid example to use for why police are needed.
    This may come as a surprise to Lewk but having lived in Victoria I can assure you the Victorian Police are not kitted out like soldiers or equipped with rocket launchers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Does this thread suggest lewk is dumb enough to think that defund means that there would be no police to investigate crimes like this? It's not like current police levels did anything to stop this from happening, so it's an extremely stupid example to use for why police are needed.
    While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.

  8. #8
    Lewk, please tell me you don't think 'abolish the police' means we'll just have no law enforcement afterwards?
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.
    Most of the "crazies actually wanting police forces to be abolished" want the existing police DEPARTMENTS abolished. To make way for new ones with better training, less militarized funding, altered priorities and cultures. There are only a handful of crazies that want no police at all and those crazies are from your side of the things, the maniac side of the libertarians
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.
    Like how Reagan dealt with Air Traffic Controllers in 1981.

    GOP used to support dealing with trouble and replacing it. What happened to your principles?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Lewk, please tell me you don't think 'abolish the police' means we'll just have no law enforcement afterwards?
    "Abolish the police" is an actual movement that wants to end police completely, though it's smaller than the "defund the police" group. The CHAZ is big on it.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...one-liked.html

    "The rest of the horrific assault is not captured on video but the mother of the victim told 7News, she was then dragged to the ground and stomped on.

    In a Facebook comment, the distraught mum said her daughter was left bleeding from the nose and mouth, suffered broken ribs, severe bruising and a suspected broken cheekbone."

    That site blurs the faces here is the YT video.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9FPYyjcgb4

    Now this didn't happen in America however this is the quintessential reason why police are needed. There are evil violent monsters among us and police are needed to make sure they can't do this sort of violence with impunity.
    Did the police prevent the assault?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    While some folks do want to defund the police in terms of redistributing some of their budget for other things, a lot of crazies are actually wanting police forces to be abolished.
    Do you catch yourself when you do this? When it feeds your position you fixate on the most fringe opinion farthest from sanity or your position (regardless of actual support), but when a IRL lewk makes the news you ignore it as fringe or crazy.

    I know this was recently pointed out to you once already, which triggered you to move on by posting another "lol death" thread, but you did the same thing here again.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  14. #14
    There's no need to engage this impotent dull-witted cockroach in good faith.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    "Abolish the police" is an actual movement that wants to end police completely, though it's smaller than the "defund the police" group. The CHAZ is big on it.
    Believe it or not the modern, quasi military police forces we have today are, in most countries, only a couple of hundred years old and are not the be all and end all of law enforcement or keeping communities safe. I know there are people out there who do genuinely think we can do away enforcement entirely and I don't think that's viable, but I do think now is definitely the time to look at different ways of doing things.

    Like, do we really need a group of armed, possible (probably) racist people trained to think of everything from their fellow humans to mundane objects like Egg McMuffins and planters full of gravel as a potential threat enforcing things like traffic laws?
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Believe it or not the modern, quasi military police forces we have today are, in most countries, only a couple of hundred years old and are not the be all and end all of law enforcement or keeping communities safe. I know there are people out there who do genuinely think we can do away enforcement entirely and I don't think that's viable, but I do think now is definitely the time to look at different ways of doing things.

    Like, do we really need a group of armed, possible (probably) racist people trained to think of everything from their fellow humans to mundane objects like Egg McMuffins and planters full of gravel as a potential threat enforcing things like traffic laws?
    I'm on board for police reform. I think anyone who supports abolishing the police isn't thinking it through at all, and the defund the police push is short-sighted and a bad idea; near universally underfunded police departments is one of the causes of the problems we have now. If we're going to stick officers with shit pay and very few protections, nobody should be surprised when it starts attracting the type of person who just wants power over others, because that's the only incentive we've allowed. We also shouldn't be encouraging and adversarial relationship between the police and citizens when the stated goal is the opposite.

    That said, one thing that came out of this that I think has a good chance of working is what Albuquerque, New Mexico is doing (and I think I've heard others are doing/considering it), where it's creating a new "Community Safety Department" staffed with mental health professionals that will take over the police responsibilities for non-violent issues like loitering, noise complaints, or arguments with the neighbors - all the small things that police are over-armed for. This type of reform is much easier for me to support than just straight slashing of police budgets, because it's actually addressing the problems and not just out to punish someone as vengeance.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    ...and the defund the police push is short-sighted and a bad idea...

    That said, one thing that came out of this that I think has a good chance of working is what Albuquerque, New Mexico is doing (and I think I've heard others are doing/considering it), where it's creating a new "Community Safety Department" staffed with mental health professionals that will take over the police responsibilities for non-violent issues like loitering, noise complaints, or arguments with the neighbors - all the small things that police are over-armed for. This type of reform is much easier for me to support than just straight slashing of police budgets, because it's actually addressing the problems and not just out to punish someone as vengeance.
    The solution you present requires funding whether it be new/higher taxes or moving funds from somewhere else. The defund the police push is for moving funds the police will no longer need to the "Community Safety Department" that assume the responsibilities relinquished by police. The defund the police movement does not advocate just straight slashing of police budgets.
    .

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'm on board for police reform. I think anyone who supports abolishing the police isn't thinking it through at all, and the defund the police push is short-sighted and a bad idea; near universally underfunded police departments is one of the causes of the problems we have now. If we're going to stick officers with shit pay and very few protections, nobody should be surprised when it starts attracting the type of person who just wants power over others, because that's the only incentive we've allowed. We also shouldn't be encouraging and adversarial relationship between the police and citizens when the stated goal is the opposite.

    That said, one thing that came out of this that I think has a good chance of working is what Albuquerque, New Mexico is doing (and I think I've heard others are doing/considering it), where it's creating a new "Community Safety Department" staffed with mental health professionals that will take over the police responsibilities for non-violent issues like loitering, noise complaints, or arguments with the neighbors - all the small things that police are over-armed for. This type of reform is much easier for me to support than just straight slashing of police budgets, because it's actually addressing the problems and not just out to punish someone as vengeance.
    Underfunded police departments compared to what? And poor salaries compared to what? It's not abnormal to see campus police make as much as professors.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Underfunded police departments compared to what? And poor salaries compared to what? It's not abnormal to see campus police make as much as professors.
    Private security is often paid better than police officers. It's why police moonlighting on those jobs is so common. And the fact that it's so common is proof that they're underpaid.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Private security is often paid better than police officers. It's why police moonlighting on those jobs is so common. And the fact that it's so common is proof that they're underpaid.
    That is not proof nor an indication that police are underpaid. Proof would include actual salaries in comparison to COL in the area they live. I don't consider $106K for a police officer to be underpaid in Sacramento.

    https://transparentcalifornia.com/salaries/sacramento/

    A small suburb of Sacramento median salary $60K

    https://www.policeofficer.education/...ho-cordova-ca/
    Last edited by Being; 06-20-2020 at 02:59 AM.
    .

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    Private security is often paid better than police officers. It's why police moonlighting on those jobs is so common. And the fact that it's so common is proof that they're underpaid.
    Except they get paid more to be private security BECAUSE they are police officers. All it proves is that various venues like having the protection of a police officer. Which in itself is a sign that they don't expect the police to do shit unless they have a personal interest.

    And you didn't answer the first question. Police departments have seen their budget increase while virtually all other social programs have been hemorrhaging money for years.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Except they get paid more to be private security BECAUSE they are police officers.
    Irrelevant. Consider how many of the police incidents involved an officer after a grueling work shift or exhaustion in general. The refrain for decades about why we shouldn't take care of officers better is that they can just go get a second job in a private force. Do you seriously not see how these situations are a problem?

    And you didn't answer the first question. Police departments have seen their budget increase while virtually all other social programs have been hemorrhaging money for years.
    Your question misses the point, and isn't relevant. If other programs are underfunded too, that doesn't change the fact that the police are underfunded. How often have you heard about police departments saying they lack the resources to deal with some situation or another? How many neighborhoods have been inadequately protected because of a lack of manpower? Areas that are too dangerous to send police or other emergency services count. And didn't you just say that various venues don't expect the police to do shit unless they have a personal interest? That was a good example, and I thank you for it.

    If we want a better class of police officers, we need a better pool of personnel. Given how high the number of cases is where officer exhaustion was a factor, we also need to be able to forbid moonlighting to keep the officers fresh. We also need officers that aren't as susceptible to corruption or beholden to outside interests, and since the most common form this takes is financial, that means they need solid personal finances. Given that this is a high risk, high stress job, and we're expecting these people to be the best examples of our society, does 35k starting and a 50k average across all experience levels (both national) sound fair for what we need from them? The incentives we've set up are broken, and it shouldn't be a surprise that we're not getting what we want from them.

    edit: I'll toss you a bone - there's at least some misuse of allocated resources too. I can think of a few examples, but I have no idea how widespread this is, or how big of an impact it'd make if we fixed it. If you wanted to tackle that before moving on to the broader resourcing problem, I'd be fine with that approach.
    Last edited by Wraith; 06-20-2020 at 04:11 AM.

  23. #23
    High risk compared to what? High stress compared to what? Being a cop is probably not even among the top ten deadliest occupations in the US. Cops are poorly trained, and receive high salaries relative to that training. Much of the "stress" and perceived risk can be attributed to police behavior that tends to make mundane situations more dangerous—for everyone involved—than they need to be. It's not exhaustion that's the problem; cops trying to make bad arrests at the end of a shift reflects the financial incentive of getting overtime for the time-consuming but low-effort task of processing an arrest.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  24. #24
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    The police in the US are not underfunded. They're undertrained.

    You're also forgetting that the other social programs are underfunded because their money gets funneled to the police - your police force is funded at the expense of everything else.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  25. #25
    NYPD total budget is $11 billion, which is split between $5.6 billion operating costs and another $5.3 billion of "centrally allocated" costs, which includes pensions and "fringe benefits" (whatever that means) (source). NY has a population of 8.3 million. I do not know how to contextualize this with other police deparments.

    LAPD has a budget of $1.5 billion and the LA population is 3.9 million

    Chicago police budget is $1.8 billion and a population of 2.7 million.

    The London Met has a budget of $4.11 billion, and policies a population of 8.9 million.

    West Midlands Police (includes jurisdiction over Birmingham, the UK's second city) has a budget of $558 million, and policies 2.8 million people.

    Greater Manchester Police has a budget of £647 million with a population of 2.7 million.

    The Paris Police Prefecture has a budget of $1.5 billion and a population of 6 million.

    The Berlin Police have a budget of 1.5 billion euros and a population of 3.7 million.

    NYPD with operating costs $674 per capita
    NYPD operating costs + centrally allocated funding $1325 per capita
    LAPD $384 per capita
    CPD $666 per capita
    London Met $461 per capita
    West Midlands $188 per capita
    Greater Manchester $239 per capita
    Paris Police $250 per capita
    Berlin Police $405 per capita

    In what universe are the US police under funded?

    Also, here's a chart (using 2017 numbers) of the police budget of various US cities as a percentage of total expenditure:

    Click to view the full version
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    The police in the US are not underfunded. They're undertrained.
    I'd have called them "mistrained", but undertrained may be accurate too.

    That's all I really came back for - this direction isn't going to be a productive use of time.

  27. #27
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    I'd have called them "mistrained", but undertrained may be accurate too.
    Not "may". Are.

    In Germany, police officers are trained for over 30 months at the least. In the US you can be glad if they even got some training besides the shooting range.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Not "may". Are.

    In Germany, police officers are trained for over 30 months at the least. In the US you can be glad if they even got some training besides the shooting range.
    I am not sure what you are basing this off of. Both of the police officers I know had training roughly equivalent to that given to a first year law student, in addition to their physical training, marksmanship and other skills.

    Those are the requirements in our state, it might vary elsewhere, and it is definitely possible additional training or different training could improve policing outcomes. It is also true that reserve officers don’t require the same level of training.

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Enoch the Red View Post
    I am not sure what you are basing this off of. Both of the police officers I know had training roughly equivalent to that given to a first year law student, in addition to their physical training, marksmanship and other skills.

    Those are the requirements in our state, it might vary elsewhere, and it is definitely possible additional training or different training could improve policing outcomes. It is also true that reserve officers don’t require the same level of training.
    The average police academy lasts 16 weeks. I'd be interested in knowing how a high school graduate is able to do all the policing stuff and the equivalent of a year of law school in that time.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The average police academy lasts 16 weeks. I'd be interested in knowing how a high school graduate is able to do all the policing stuff and the equivalent of a year of law school in that time.
    At least in our state it is an academy where they reside during the course of training. My understanding is it is limited to criminal and traffic law, (so more narrow a curriculum and focus than your average law student) but it is fairly in-depth.

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