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Thread: Should ICE be abolished?

  1. #1

    Default Should ICE be abolished?

    America's ICE seem absolutely evil, rotten to the core and irredeemable.

    They didn't even exist until 2003.

    Should they be 'reformed' or simply abolished? I think simply abolished.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  2. #2
    Last edited by GGT; 07-22-2020 at 07:17 AM.

  3. #3
    Hang on, is this some kind of trick question RB is using to justify Brexit?

  4. #4
    What?
    No.

    This is asking whether an organisation that thinks it is acceptable to separate families, lock people up in cages etc can ever be "reformed" or if it should simply be abolished altogether.

    Was watching Station 19 last night [we are probably behind in the UK so no spoilers] and they had a chilling episode about ICE.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  5. #5
    Thanks for clarifying. Sorry if I made a weird connection to what you were asking.

    Unfortunately, there are millions of Americans who "scroll thru history" like a TV show, and don't know much about civics or history, but elected a TV show host to the presidency in the post 9/11 era, so.....

    Ask Loki. He can explain the history of our failed governmental bureaucracies (and new agencies created after 9/11) better than anyone.

  6. #6
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    I think Americans need a rethink of the relationship between the government and its agencies on the one side and the people on the other side. I have a serious suspicion that if you treat the other side as enemies, there is a good chance they start to behave like enemies.

    Some people hate ICE, some people hate IRS, some people hat the EPA, and other people hate te government full stop. In the long run something's gotta give. And it won't be the people I think. But starving the beast hasn't brought about a situation that the beast can't seriously hurt while going down.

    Unless of course you think that all ICE workers wake up every morning with the thought 'let's see how many families I can rip apart today'.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  7. #7
    Americans have needed a "rethink" for at least two centuries.

  8. #8
    RB if you want to abolish ICE what are you replacing it with? Or do you actually think we should never try to enforce our immigration laws?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    RB if you want to abolish ICE what are you replacing it with? Or do you actually think we should never try to enforce our immigration laws?
    Good point, you can't return to not enforcing your immigration laws as was the case in 2002.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    America's ICE seem absolutely evil, rotten to the core and irredeemable.

    They didn't even exist until 2003.

    Should they be 'reformed' or simply abolished? I think simply abolished.
    I think step one is to fire a lot of people, publicly humiliate and ostracize many others so that they have no credibility moving forward, and arrest a few (those most responsible for the worst violations). Abolishing ICE is likely to be a massive undertaking that might not be feasible in the coming presidential term.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    RB if you want to abolish ICE what are you replacing it with? Or do you actually think we should never try to enforce our immigration laws?
    Not enforcing immigration law would be better than continuing with ICE yes.

    After time maybe set up a new humane organisation to deal with immigration law while understanding that people are people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    America's ICE seem absolutely evil, rotten to the core and irredeemable.

    They didn't even exist until 2003.

    Should they be 'reformed' or simply abolished? I think simply abolished.
    I have no particular attachment to ICE as an organization, but some of the rhetoric has been overblown here. Yes, ICE was created in the wake of the 9/11 reorganization of the national security apparatus. But crucially, it isn't like the legal mandates for their work (or the work itself) just started then - they just took over the mandates of preexisting organizations. For the perspective you're talking about, it was mostly from INS' previous role that has been so troublesome in recent years. (When people talk about abolishing ICE they probably actually mean the ERO section of ICE which was roughly the INS' purview, not the HSI section which, while far from perfect, does not has the same high profile issues.)

    So if we're going to get rid of the ERO, we'll need some portion of the federal government to enforce the Congressional laws that ERO used to. The resulting organization will probably look not all that different from what ERO currently does (absent a change in the law, which would certainly be welcome). It's kinda a constitutional requirement. Furthermore, most of the more egregious examples of ERO overstepping in recent years have been driven by conscious decisions by the Trump and Obama administrations (albeit due to a complex series of court decisions that gave then rather unpalatable options in the context of the political environment and the existing law). To make real change you're going to need a change in the law and a change in the political discourse that closes off some options. Just reshuffling an organization isn't going to do much.

    That being said, parts of ERO specifically and ICE in general have demonstrated very troubling behavior that is not tied to the law or to directives from the administration: racist/physical/sexual abuse of detainees, an utter lack of accountability in many cases (external or internal) and a worrying lack of coordination with state government and courts. Frankly these are outright unacceptable and it is the job of DHS (and the administration more broadly) to fire those responsible and make crystal clear to the new management that such behavior will not be tolerated. Perhaps a new administrative structure with a stronger independent inspector general would help.

    Long story short: 'abolishing' ICE is probably meaningless. Rethinking our immigration laws and enforcement thereof, and ensuring that whatever organization carries out the enforcement of those laws plays nice is probably a very good idea.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  13. #13
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    Firing ICE workers only works for as long as it takes to train a new batch. The treatment of people (not just illegal immigrants) isn't abyssmal because they hire sociopaths. It's because the system is fundamentally flawed. On face value it seems like ICE workers could be replaced by robots with nobody noticing the difference. If you take the humanity out of an agency you get inhuman results.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  14. #14
    Where do they find these people though that have no humanity?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #15
    To abolish ICE, you must first abolish the system that made ICE, otherwise it will just make another ICE, under a new name and slightly better and hiding it's asses.

    Hazir gets it.
    Sticks and stones take a toll on me but they aren't your strongest weaponry
    You can take your shots but you'd best prepare, I can see smoke rising in the air
    Every move has a counteract, to turn the tides with a planned attack
    You push me down and the rest will rise but first I'm singing a battle cry

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    I think the US Department of Homeland Security has too many "missions", and the WH (presidency) has too much control:
    For once I think GGT has it exactly right.

    And yeah, Rand, I'd abolish them. But that's not how DC does things. Even if their intent was to abolish it, they'd keep it and just create another agency to do the same thing with a larger portion of the funding.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Firing ICE workers only works for as long as it takes to train a new batch. The treatment of people (not just illegal immigrants) isn't abyssmal because they hire sociopaths. It's because the system is fundamentally flawed. On face value it seems like ICE workers could be replaced by robots with nobody noticing the difference. If you take the humanity out of an agency you get inhuman results.
    They do seem to hire sociopaths. There was a lawsuit from someone who went through their training that suggests they don't want anyone with any kind of a moral conscience.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #18
    Which agency was it that won a lawsuit to not hire people they consider to smart?
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Not enforcing immigration law would be better than continuing with ICE yes.

    After time maybe set up a new humane organisation to deal with immigration law while understanding that people are people.
    You are in crazy land. No immigration laws = flood of folks coming to America. Mexico and central America are barely functioning states at this point.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Mexico and central The United States of America are barely functioning states at this point.
    ftfy
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    ftfy
    Portland and Seattle aren't the entire country.

  22. #22
    Portland and Seattle aren't the problem.

    Why aren't you on the streets with the protestors fighting against the tyrannical government wielding your guns? Wasn't that what you've been banging on that the 2nd Amendment was needed for.
    https://www.theshovel.com.au/2020/06...al-government/
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Where do they find these people though that have no humanity?
    Ever heard about the Banality of evil? Hannah Arendt may have some answers for you.

    I think it is very possible that most ICE workers are nice and decent people with everybody who they feel is an actual human being. The system they work in though dehumanizes people (the illegal immigrants, it's no coincidence that they insist on using the term criminal).

    Once you passed that hurdle it becomes easy.
    Trump: Lock him up.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Where do they find these people though that have no humanity?
    Er, literally everywhere. It's not difficult to find people who are willing to exclude various groups from their idea of a human being with rights and inherent dignity—esp. when you have a public discourse, a legal system and an institutional culture that all encourage such discriminatory treatment. Do you think people like Lewk are that unusual? Everyone is willing to exclude someone, somewhere, from their rules about how to relate to human beings. "Terrorists". "Criminals". "Foreigners". The Fox classic "not our kids".
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Which agency was it that won a lawsuit to not hire people they consider to smart?
    A police department. Jordan v The City of New London.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Er, literally everywhere. It's not difficult to find people who are willing to exclude various groups from their idea of a human being with rights and inherent dignity—esp. when you have a public discourse, a legal system and an institutional culture that all encourage such discriminatory treatment. Do you think people like Lewk are that unusual? Everyone is willing to exclude someone, somewhere, from their rules about how to relate to human beings. "Terrorists". "Criminals". "Foreigners". The Fox classic "not our kids".
    There's something about US culture that's flawed, especially our toxic "Us vs Them" *power principle* that seeps into everything.

    I think plenty of people join police, military, or other law enforcement agencies with good intentions -- To Protect and Serve -- but there are just as many (maybe more?) who want power and control. And they find a camaraderie in shared aggression as 'superiority', like fraternities that haze by hurting.

    Secrecy = loyalty. That's part of the fucked up indoctrination process. Whistle-blowers (aka "snitches") get weeded out, while the biggest bullies and sadists get promoted to positions of power. Think of priests or Boy Scout leaders who are pedophiles, CEOs who are serial sexual harassers, *sports coaches or team doctors who are sexual abusers*, police chiefs who beat their wives, soldiers who torture, or even presidents who pay hush money to hide their infidelities....and got away with it. For decades, generations. /rant

    Last edited by GGT; 07-26-2020 at 10:56 PM. Reason: *

  27. #27
    I was remembering the tests we took in elementary school which helped students adopt certain educational "tracks". Somehow, the helping professions, which traditionally meant medicine, nursing, psychology, social services, or even law....morphed into including police and military. I hadn't thought about it until now, but that's a really bad way to allow/encourage aggressive people with control issues (and sociopaths) feel like they're "helpers", or even heroes.

    Last edited by GGT; 07-27-2020 at 04:42 AM.

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