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Thread: UK politics

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    They have denied the story outright, which there is no reason to do if its not true

    - if he was in Perugia for a weekend then that would be entirely fine. Italy isn't under travel restrictions.

    However on the weekend in question at the times he was meant to be in Perugia he has been: photographed in the Cabinet Office (Friday evening while video messaging the Parliamentary Conservative Party as mentioned after he was supposedly in Perugia), photographed in Westminster Cathedral (while supposedly in Perugia), photographed in Downing Street (Monday morning, before he supposedly returned from Perugia, a photo snapped by the Paparazzi and used on the front cover of the Evening Standard).

    Someone has clearly got their facts wrong, but it doesn't seem to be Downing Street.
    The only problem is that there is a detailed official statement that explicitly identifies Johnson as having been in Perugia that weekend (in addition to Blair), and at least two sources at the airport who agree that Johnson was there recently. The later unofficial clarification from the pres. of the airport, in contrast, is not very compelling. We're seeing now what happens when a leader and his subordinates gain a global reputation for lying—people can't take them at their word, even on those occasions when they might actually be telling the truth. The PMs visit to a Russian oligarch, at a particularly fraught time, would absolutely be the kind of thing a liar might deem to be worth lying about. The mystery will be solved once the passengers on the flights in question are identified, and locatable photos of Johnson that Saturday and Sunday eventually emerge.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #62
    LOL you sounds as bonkers as Carole Conspiracy.

    The PM has been photographed in the Cabinet Office, Westminster Cathedral and Downing Street.

    There is no evidence he's been in Perugia besides a Press Release mentioning him that has now been said to have named him in error.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The PM has been photographed in the Cabinet Office, Westminster Cathedral and Downing Street.
    On what dates and at what times? Not dispositive; circumstantial, at best—which is a problem when dealing with a known liar.

    There is no evidence he's been in Perugia besides a Press Release mentioning him that has now been said to have named him in error.
    The press release explicitly mentioned both Blair and Johnson, which is what made the initial explanation about a simple mix-up implausible. Moreover, the tweet you linked to contains an important factual error in the statement from the chairman of the airport's board: there was, in fact, another flight from the UK on the 12th—a private flight from Farnborough allegedly carrying only one (private) passenger, who (it was later asserted) was not Johnson. One charitable and parsimonious explanation is not a simple mix-up but a case of Chinese whispers (notwithstanding testimony from other sources working at the airport). A second possible—albeit less plausible—explanation is that Johnson went through there recently but not on that particular weekend, and the people who say they saw him were confused about the dates rather than about the person.

    And why would they even deny he was there if he was, given that there'd be no issue with him being there? Italy is on the authorised travel corridor list at the minute.
    The PM skipping off to another country to hang out with a Russian oligarch in the middle of several developing crises is a big deal—it would've indicated a lack of prudence & reliability, and would've looked incredibly dodgy to boot (much like a previous dodgy trip to hang out with the same oligarch).

    You sounds like a conspiracy nutjob.
    I have strongly negative priors when it comes to your PM's and his subordinates' truthfulness—and justifiably so. I therefore require compelling independent corroboration of their claims. In this case, the most compelling refutation of the initial reporting would've been clear evidence of Johnson being in the UK on Saturday evening or all through Sunday. However, I'm willing to provisionally accept the airport's claims—allegedly corroborated by local police—re. no other Brit but Blair being a passenger on the flights in question. Good thing a diligent journalist was able to get to the bottom of the matter.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  4. #64
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    It would be an extremely stupid thing to lie about given that, you know, his name would be recorded in multiple pages. So I doubt it's true, but hey, if not we'll know soon enough.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  5. #65
    Indeed.

    It is sad to see Aimless falling for silly and obviously fake conspiracy theories, it isn't healthy.

    He'll be talking about children in tunnels next.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    It would be an extremely stupid thing to lie about given that, you know, his name would be recorded in multiple pages. So I doubt it's true, but hey, if not we'll know soon enough.
    Tbf I don't know what the protocols are for recording/reporting the PM's private comings and goings. One way to get an idea is to see whether the claims re. his multiple private visits this year can be corroborated using public records.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed.

    It is sad to see Aimless falling for silly and obviously fake conspiracy theories, it isn't healthy.

    He'll be talking about children in tunnels next.
    How would you know whether those stories are or aren't real, RB, given your inability to properly read simple articles from beginning to end, and your love of liars? Now you've made me think there must be something to those stories after all.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  8. #68
    Don't worry I'm sure Q can tell you what's going on.

    How many other conspiracy theories are you going to buy into?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  9. #69

  10. #70
    Ooh that was a good one, a lot of people bought into that nonsense. Glad to see you coming around to realising Project Fear was nonsense though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  11. #71
    That literally makes no sense

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Don't worry I'm sure Q can tell you what's going on.

    How many other conspiracy theories are you going to buy into?
    Which conspiracy theory are you referring to? The theory that an official statement that the PM went to visit his Russian oligarch buddy in Perugia—which he has done on many occasions, at least once under scandalously suspicious circumstances—was true, or the theory that Boris Johnson is a known liar, and both he and his subordinates are notorious for deceiving the public? Neither are conspiracy theories; the former is plausible a priori and requires evidence to either corroborate or refute, whereas the latter is just established fact that should inform one's priors unless one is hopelessly partisan and completely deluded about Johnson's character.

    Incidentally, while we're trying to suss out the limits of our perspectives, how many other accents do you intend to use to racially profile people, RB? Or have you decided to settle for just profiling people with "Irish accents"? How about people who employ urban black modes of speech, or are just black? After all, you've previously used their over-representation in crime statistics to justify the racist overpolicing to which they're subjected, so why not treat them with the same kind of wariness yourself?
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    That literally makes no sense
    It makes perfect sense. He's saying that project fear was a conspiracy theory, while you're recognizing that those who dismissively called it "project fear"—and characterized it as a massive plot to scare Brits into voting against a hard Brexit—were being delusional. It's in the same rhetorical family as zingers like "i know u are but wot am i"
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Which conspiracy theory are you referring to? The theory that an official statement that the PM went to visit his Russian oligarch buddy in Perugia—which he has done on many occasions, at least once under scandalously suspicious circumstances—was true, or the theory that Boris Johnson is a known liar, and both he and his subordinates are notorious for deceiving the public? Neither are conspiracy theories; the former is plausible a priori and requires evidence to either corroborate or refute, whereas the latter is just established fact that should inform one's priors unless one is hopelessly partisan and completely deluded about Johnson's character.

    Incidentally, while we're trying to suss out the limits of our perspectives, how many other accents do you intend to use to racially profile people, RB? Or have you decided to settle for just profiling people with "Irish accents"? How about people who employ urban black modes of speech, or are just black? After all, you've previously used their over-representation in crime statistics to justify the racist overpolicing to which they're subjected, so why not treat them with the same kind of wariness yourself?
    Your professed naivety does you no favours. And I don't justify overpolicing or racial profiling.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Your professed naivety does you no favours. And I don't justify overpolicing or racial profiling.
    You had plenty of time for asinine defenses of both in previous discussions about policing in the US—and let's not even get started on your interesting reflections on Irish Travelers.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  16. #76
    Do you think there is no criminal element to Irish travellers? Travellers are not a race, it is a way of life people choose that involves crime as part of the way of life.

    I've made my opposition to the US Police lately abundantly clear.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  17. #77
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #78
    It's neither racism nor prejudice to say that there is a major criminal element to Gypsies. That's like saying it's racist to or prejudicial to say there's a major criminal element to Maifiosos. Especially since I always made clear I wasn't speaking about Irish in general, any more than Italians in general.

    Johnson is right. You laughing at it doesn't change anything.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    It's neither racism nor prejudice to say that there is a major criminal element to Gypsies. That's like saying it's racist to or prejudicial to say there's a major criminal element to Maifiosos. Especially since I always made clear I wasn't speaking about Irish in general, any more than Italians in general.

    Johnson is right. You laughing at it doesn't change anything.
    He's wrong, and now I feel compelled to laugh at you as well—not only because you're so hilariously delusional about the reasons for the UK's ongoing failure to manage its pandemic, or because you're so bizarrely delusional about the reasons for other nations' success, but also to help push down my disgust at your ongoing defense of racism.
    Last edited by Aimless; 09-22-2020 at 06:40 PM.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  20. #80
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    He's wrong, and now I feel compelled to laugh at you as well—not only because you're so hilariously delusional about the reasons for the UK's ongoing failure to manage its pandemic, or because you're so bizarrely delusional about the reasons for other nations' success, but also to help push down my disgust at your ongoing defense of racism.
    Criminals are not a race.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  22. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Criminals are not a race.
    I know RB, but that has nothing to do with your defense of racism—both when it comes to police, as well as when it comes to your "instincts".
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  23. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Nothing unreasonable there. Students being "at university" typically refers to people who have gone away to be university, even if a minority do not do that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  24. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Nothing unreasonable there. Students being "at university" typically refers to people who have gone away to be university, even if a minority do not do that.
    In context, the question is equally relevant for all students attending uni, and the answer is only relevant to roughly 50-80%.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  25. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    In context, the question is equally relevant for all students attending uni, and the answer is only relevant to roughly 50-80%.
    The primary part of the advice "follow the guidance" applies to everyone.

    The don't travel across the country to go home part of the advice applies to those who might travel across the country to go home. No shit Sherlock. What next the advice on if you have a foreign holiday only applies to the minority having foreign holidays? Scraping the barrel here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  26. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    The primary part of the advice "follow the guidance" applies to everyone.

    The don't travel across the country to go home part of the advice applies to those who might travel across the country to go home. No shit Sherlock. What next the advice on if you have a foreign holiday only applies to the minority having foreign holidays? Scraping the barrel here.
    1 in 5 university students live at home with their families—over half, at some unis. These students have no practical choice but to go home and risk infecting their families and elder relatives, in the event of an outbreak at their uni. Saying that they "should" not do so is meaningless. The only way to protect them and their families is to prevent outbreaks—at uni and in the broader community—and protect students from exposure at unis. That can be accomplished through policy, eg. to address problems w/ the test-trace-isolate scheme, online-only education, better epidemic control several weeks ago, etc. I understand that you have a limitless supply of excuses for Dear Leader, because you think of politics as a game, but I'm more concerned with the real consequences for real people.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  27. #87
    This may be a language barrier for you but "go home" for university students means returning to their parents home from their university home, it doesn't mean going from the shops or a lecture theatre or home learning on your computer to your home you live in. They're saying if you're in an area with an outbreak don't travel around the country spreading the outbreak - hardly an unreasonable request.

    Universities are doing lots to protect the community that wouldn't normally be done including making much learning online this year, social distancing etc - but if you're in an area of a local lockdown then don't leave it potentially carrying the virus with you to go elsewhere is the message.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    This may be a language barrier for you but "go home" for university students means returning to their parents home from their university home, it doesn't mean going from the shops or a lecture theatre or home learning on your computer to your home you live in. They're saying if you're in an area with an outbreak don't travel around the country spreading the outbreak - hardly an unreasonable request.
    It's not an issue of a language barrier, it's an issue of Johnson giving an inadequate answer to an important question—no doubt partly due to a class barrier and partly because he wasn't paying attention. The question asked was not only about students who've moved to attend uni but about all uni students—specifically, what advice the govt. has for universities on how to protect students, staff and the wider community. Johnson's answer disregards the large group of uni students who still live with their families, many of whom are in higher-risk groups. Consequently, his advice is not sufficient to protect a large minority of students and those in the wider community—not to mention on campus—who are in contact with those students.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  29. #89
    Yes and he answered the question. Follow the guidance and specifically for those to whom it applies unique advice.

    The ones who live with their families aren't at risk of spreading the virus from one town to another if they go home, so yes that doesn't apply to them. That's irrelevant and pathetic when it does apply to hundreds of thousands if not millions of others it is very sound advice to give.

    The guidance of not changing towns if you might have the virus isn't about protecting the person who might have the virus it is about preventing them spreading it elsewhere. If they already have it and are in the home of those who already have it then yes it won't protect them but that's not the frigging point. You really aren't grasping a pretty basic point are you?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #90
    If they already have it and are in the home of those who already have it then yes it won't protect them but that's not the frigging point.
    Yes, we know. But it should be.
    Greater than the odds, higher than the stakes
    One shot to change the course, with no room for mistakes
    Bound with stronger will, in the hands of time
    So where's the pawn that turns the tide and keeps the game alive?

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