But do they belong to Israel?Originally Posted by Loki
But do they belong to Israel?
You can't violate an embargo until you actually reach said blockade.
I enjoy blank walls.
Glad to know those few extra miles better than much to you.You can't violate an embargo until you actually reach said blockade.
Hope is the denial of reality
You can't violate an embargo until you actually reach said blockade.Boundaries matter, that's why they're there.Glad to know those few extra miles better than much to you.
Maybe we should ask Turkey about the nice boundary it shares with northern Iraq.
Hope is the denial of reality
So it's ok with you to violate international law when it's convenient?Glad to know those few extra miles better than much to you.
Irrelevant.Maybe we should ask Turkey about the nice boundary it shares with northern Iraq.
I enjoy blank walls.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Sure, violating the international law is bad, but this is hardly the worst violation or a unique one. Israel similarly turned around a Russian ship that was illegally carrying weapons to Iran, and no one seems to have condemned Israel for that incident. For that matter, no one (except the Syrians) seems to have cried when the Israelis bombed the Syrian nuclear reactor recently, and bombing other countries is pretty clearly against international law.
Considering that Turkey is leading the international condemnation, I think it's very relevant that Turkey regularly bombs northern Iraq, with the last major incident being 11 days ago, as it's a direct act of war against another state. But of course most mainstream media doesn't bother picking it up, because no one gives a damn.Irrelevant.
Last edited by Loki; 06-01-2010 at 01:44 AM.
Hope is the denial of reality
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Sure, violating the international law is bad, but this is hardly the worst violation or a unique one. Israel similarly turned around a Russian ship that was illegally carrying weapons to Iran, and no one seems to have condemned Israel for that incident. For that matter, no one (except the Syrians) seems to have cried when the Syrians bombed the Syrian nuclear reactor recently, and bombing other countries is pretty clearly against international law.
Considering that Turkey is leading the international condemnation, I think it's very relevant that Turkey regularly bombs northern Iraq, with the last major incident being 11 days ago, as it's a direct act of war against another state. But of course most mainstream media doesn't bother picking it up, because no one gives a damn.
Mario is interested. So am I. Perhaps, instead of using your auto-academic-attitude right now, since the facts are still streaming in, you could y'know, have a discussion?
Right now, where the incident occurred does matter. Some of it doesn't add up....why board boats via helicopter in international waters, armed with paint ball guns, then act surprised that the flotilla takes a defensive position?
Why not wait until they're in Israeli waters, with the UN embargo rules under their "belt", and act accordingly? It's not like this hasn't been going on for a few years now.
Please tell me what practical difference it would make it they tried the same thing in Israeli/Palestinian waters.
Hope is the denial of reality
I was under the impression that Israeli waters meant certain acts were permissable within their boundaries (as national defense), that aren't allowed in international waters.
If the water boundaries don't matter for jurisdictional purposes, then why bother with any water boundaries? They are geographical borders with political impact. Why weren't the rules followed?
I meant in terms of what would actually happen on the ships.
Here's an interesting and pretty balanced analysis of the situation:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...-trap-1.293421
Edit:
"It's an Islamist organisationas it has been deeply involved with Hamas for some time," said Henri Barkey, an analyst for the Carnegie Endowment. "Some of its members went on the boat saying that they had written their last will and testament."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...d-the-IHH.html
Looks like the "civilians" aren't very civil.
Last edited by Loki; 06-01-2010 at 02:08 AM.
Hope is the denial of reality
"We were arrogant and complacent," one officer told Haaretz. "We didn't anticipate the scale of the resistance and didn't conduct ourselves accordingly."
I'm not sure anyone is blaming the soldiers, per se. Just that the whole thing sounds.....odd. Why inflame the ally Turks (who apparently did their own screening of the shipments before setting sail ? ) and make such a mess?
And how did only Israelis die, when the "mob" was supposedly "armed" with bats and sticks, but no guns---but they're accused of stealing the side arms off the commandos?
Some of this is too new and raw, the information coming out. So I start at the beginning, with territorial waters. That's supposed to be an honored boundary. I don't really understand what the Israelis thought they'd accomplish by violating international water rules. And they're too smart and well equipped to say it was a GPS mistake.
Erm, Israel is conducting a blockage of Gaza. It's not going to make exceptions for Turks, especially Turkish militants, who also happened to have been egged on by the Islamist government of Turkey.
The Israelis are better trained and better equipped, so it's not surprising that the mob wasn't able to kill any Israelis, though they did seriously injure several of them.
As for the last question, I'd imagine it's because they worried about losing sight of these boats or something of the sort. But again, this is hardly a big deal. This kind of violation happens all the time.
Hope is the denial of reality
Erm, saying this is hardly a big deal, and this kind of violation happens all the time won't make it go poof.
The blockade of Gaza has left poverty and misery, while the Israelis continue to build houses where they shouldn't. Sounds like "violations" are on both sides, and it's a continual mess.
I don't think it's that "no one gives a damn" like you said. I think it's more like---FFS---even when Jews do something that appears to be bad, we can't even say so?
And yet similar instances have met with token condemnation at best...
Gaza was full of poverty and misery before the blockade. I also don't recall Israel building houses in Gaza.
So Turkey indiscriminately bombs northern Iraq = no one gives a damn. Israel kills a bunch of militants = world is up in arms.
Hope is the denial of reality
Israelis have continued to build homes where they supposedly agreed not to, in East Jerusalem.
Just because Gaza had poverty and misery before, doesn't mean the blockade is "righteous", by making it worse.
If you want to diss Turkey, then go ahead. I'm questioning the double standard of Israel's actions at the moment. Rules are rules, until Israel breaks the rules and say's "it's no big deal, everyone else does it"?
That's what Mario was referring to. That's pretty much what the average 'spectator' asks. At least when it comes to maritime law and international seas and boundaries.
It's a good question.
And why weren't these questions being asked when other states were breaking these same rules?
Hope is the denial of reality
I love how the Guardian Website becomes a hyperventilating mess whenever Israel stuff happens. It's like they are crying and orgasming at the same time.
But I agree with the gist of what Loki's first article above says: the Israelis walked into a trap. Last night I was on the subway late at night and downloaded a news story about the approaching flotilla. I knew there would be some kind of confrontation and that was the point of this, but the Israelis managed to walk into it and got egged into making it worse for everyone (especially the dead folks).
The dead folks seem to be the political branch of an Islamist group that is not different to Hamas.
Hope is the denial of reality
They most likely were. But as you've pointed out ad nauseum, NOT posting about something doesn't mean apathy.
That smacks against the idea that Israel is smart and savvy. If you knew a confrontation was imminent, it's tough to swallow that the Israeli military didn't.
As someone who actually pays attention to these things, I can assure you they were not. They were not headline stories. They were not brought up by the UN. They were not the subject of massive outrage.They most likely were. But as you've pointed out ad nauseum, NOT posting about something doesn't mean apathy.
Hope is the denial of reality
I don't read Turkish or Israeli dedicated news sources. But I really don't like the suggestion that's now in main stream media, that Israelis or Turks somehow think the US could have prevented this fiasco.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/wo...turkey.html?hp
Asli Aydintasbas, a columnist at the Turkish daily Milliyet, argues that the episode was a striking failure in diplomacy, for both the United States and Turkey. The new foreign policy pursued by Turkey’s government has given it a confidence that sometimes results in overreaching. For example, Turkey believed it could change Israeli policies toward Gaza.
“This was a disaster waiting to happen,” Ms. Aydintasbas said. “Both Turkish and American officials could have stopped the boats from moving forward. It’s clear they didn’t try hard enough.”
Everyone knew a confrontation was imminent. That's why this whole boat convoy left; to force a confrontation. To make Israel defend its territorial waters and maintain the blockade, and document it so that the Israelis looked like they were cold-blooded baby-starvers. Except it went way farther.
So you're saying this is just one big conspiracy, that the Israelis fell into? I don't buy it.
No, not a conspiracy. I'm saying the strategy was to provoke Israel. Either Israel lets them through (and the blockade is broken) or Israel intercepts the unarmed civilians and looks like bloodthirsty animals.
It's a pretty standard tactic of asymmetric warfare; provoke your enemy into attacking you, which turns people against you*when you respond using your superior force. But probably no one expected it to get this violent. I doubt anyone expected people would actually get killed over this.
Israel has superior intelligence, military, and tactical skill. They failed to use it, so it's not such a great secondary tactic to make it sound like they were victimized.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/wo...1flotilla.html
Reading backward the article also says:Israeli officials said that international law allowed for the capture of naval vessels in international waters if they were about to violate a blockade. The blockade was imposed by Israel and Egypt after the Hamas takeover of Gaza in 2007. Israel’s deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon, said Monday that the blockade was “aimed at preventing the infiltration of terror and terrorists into Gaza.”
Einat Wilf, a Labor Party member of Parliament who sits on the influential Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee, said that she had warned Mr. Barak and others well in advance that the flotilla was a public relations issue and should not be dealt with by military means.
“This had nothing to do with security,” she said in an interview. “The armaments for Hamas were not coming from this flotilla.”
The fatalities all occurred aboard the Mavi Marmara, a Turkish passenger vessel that was carrying about 600 activists under the auspices of Insani Yardim Vakfi, an organization also known as I.H.H. Israeli officials have characterized it as a dangerous Islamic organization with terrorist links.
Yet the organization, founded in 1992 to collect aid for the Bosnians, is now active in 120 countries and has been present at recent disaster areas like Haiti and New Orleans.
“Our volunteers were not trained military personnel,” said Yavuz Dede, deputy director of the organization. “They were civilians trying to get aid to Gaza. There were artists, intellectuals and journalists among them. Such an offensive cannot be explained by any terms.”
I like how these people pretend that it's impossible to simultaneously be a terrorist group and a humanitarian organization. Hamas and Hezbollah, with which this organization has strong links, do exactly that. Peaceful individuals don't act like rabid dogs at the sight of an Israeli.
Hope is the denial of reality
But (at least so far) the boats did not have weapons intended to arm Israel's enemies. The carried humanitarian aid. They may have been trying to get around the blockade, and change policy, but what makes you think it was to arm terrorists?
More importantly, why would Israel (with its superior intelligence and sensitivities) not just wait until the flotilla was in Israeli waters, and conduct searches for "contraband"? That sounds like what they used to do, so why change policy now? The number of boats? Doesn't the Israeli navy have the capacity to halt or delay a flotilla as they enter their waters....?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote