View Poll Results: Vaccine passports?

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  • Yes

    3 60.00%
  • No

    1 20.00%
  • LittleFuzzy yes

    2 40.00%
  • LittleFuzzy no

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Thread: Vaccine passports

  1. #1

    Default Vaccine passports

    Yes or no?

    Details?

    Legislation?

    Implementation?

    Duration?

    American libertarians are concerned that vaccine passports might put the US on the road to a new Holocaust, so it's important to hash this out now, before it's go-time.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  2. #2
    Yes for air, cruise or international travel for a while, if the company or destination nation wants it.

    Maybe for private businesses like clubs, theatres etc if the business wants it.

    No for compulsory or government mandated checks domestically.

    Domestically only really fair once everyone has had an opportunity to get a vaccine. By which point they may be unnecessary anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  3. #3
    Yeh.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  4. #4
    Clear no for anything other than international travel.

  5. #5
    So even if a business wants to do this of their own free choice, say a domestic cruise ship for instance, you want the government to outlaw businesses making their own free choices on who to serve?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    So even if a business wants to do this of their own free choice, say a domestic cruise ship for instance, you want the government to outlaw businesses making their own free choices on who to serve?
    Didn't say that. If business wants to create their own resource without any government input that's up to them.

    Edit: Would still be ethically opposed to it and likely blast companies for doing it.

  7. #7
    If anyone is curious what it's like to live in a state run by someone who is somehow dumber than lewk, our governor just banned vaccine passports, by both local agencies and private businesses.

    Cause fuck the cruise lines, fuck safety, and fuck keeping the government out of the way.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Didn't say that. If business wants to create their own resource without any government input that's up to them.

    Edit: Would still be ethically opposed to it and likely blast companies for doing it.
    Are you opposed to requiring children to be vaccinated before they can go to school?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  9. #9
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Yes for air, cruise or international travel for a while, if the company or destination nation wants it.

    Maybe for private businesses like clubs, theatres etc if the business wants it.

    No for compulsory or government mandated checks domestically.

    Domestically only really fair once everyone has had an opportunity to get a vaccine. By which point they may be unnecessary anyway.
    Pretty much this, and would prefer if there's a non vaccination alternative (very recent negative test), aaand preferably so the difference can't be seen by others. Mainly for those with genuine medical reasons why they can't be vaccinated, but that'd also help against challenges based on freedom of religion and medical privacy.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are you opposed to requiring children to be vaccinated before they can go to school?
    Lewk doesn't like kids going to school, remember? Homeschooling extremist.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Pretty much this, and would prefer if there's a non vaccination alternative (very recent negative test), aaand preferably so the difference can't be seen by others. Mainly for those with genuine medical reasons why they can't be vaccinated, but that'd also help against challenges based on freedom of religion and medical privacy.
    I'd like to see a holy book that says, "thou shall not take vaccines."
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'd like to see a holy book that says, "thou shall not take vaccines."
    That's a silly question. If you are inclined to believe that God is providing, then it's not such a strange thing to believe that protecting yourself against the percieved will of God is sinful. They don't just see vaccines in this light but any type of attempt of avoiding the effects of what God puts on your way. Insurance of any kind is a big no no too.

    You may not believe that, I may not believe that. But it's unethic to demand they apply your logic to their live decisions. Then you should be honest and say you don't want them to be able to base their decisions on what they believe.
    Congratulations America

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are you opposed to requiring children to be vaccinated before they can go to school?
    Mixed feelings to be honest. For tried and fully tested vaccines that not taking can result in serious harm to a child... it is borderline child abuse not to give it. However I dislike the state making the determination and doubly so with vaccines that exist with liability immunity for big pharma companies making them. I'd accept a compromise of the requirement existing for public schools if a fully funded voucher system existed to allow parents to opt out and use those educational dollars elsewhere.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    That's a silly question. If you are inclined to believe that God is providing, then it's not such a strange thing to believe that protecting yourself against the percieved will of God is sinful. They don't just see vaccines in this light but any type of attempt of avoiding the effects of what God puts on your way. Insurance of any kind is a big no no too.

    You may not believe that, I may not believe that. But it's unethic to demand they apply your logic to their live decisions. Then you should be honest and say you don't want them to be able to base their decisions on what they believe.
    Can I take it those same people are against clothes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Mixed feelings to be honest. For tried and fully tested vaccines that not taking can result in serious harm to a child... it is borderline child abuse not to give it. However I dislike the state making the determination and doubly so with vaccines that exist with liability immunity for big pharma companies making them. I'd accept a compromise of the requirement existing for public schools if a fully funded voucher system existed to allow parents to opt out and use those educational dollars elsewhere.
    No public entity is going to require vaccines until they are formally approved.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Can I take it those same people are against clothes?



    No public entity is going to require vaccines until they are formally approved.
    No, you don't get to nitpick someone's religion to pieces. You have the right to accept or reject someone's believes. But that's where it ends.
    Congratulations America

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    No, you don't get to nitpick someone's religion to pieces. You have the right to accept or reject someone's believes. But that's where it ends.
    I can't wait to see the same people who were fine getting half a dozen other vaccines suddenly realize that their religion doesn't allow them to take this one.

    The requirement here is for a "sincerely held" religious belief. I somehow doubt the sincerity of most Covidiots.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Pretty much the only people who can claim opposition to vaccines in general on religious grounds are a handful of members of tiny fringe sects. Some groups oppose specific vaccines on religious grounds, notably vaccination against HPV. But every major denomination of every major religion endorses vaccination in general.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Pretty much the only people who can claim opposition to vaccines in general on religious grounds are a handful of members of tiny fringe sects. Some groups oppose specific vaccines on religious grounds, notably vaccination against HPV. But every major denomination of every major religion endorses vaccination in general.
    Some prominent Catholics over here have raised objections due to the fact that a cell line originating from an aborted embryo has been used in some point of research and development of certain Covid vaccines. I don't think such concerns have been raised previously related to other vaccines, although I have no idea if such "objectionable" cell lines are employed in development of any of the more commonplace vaccines. Maybe this view is not particularly widespread - I know I've heard of similar concerns from other Catholic priests in other countries a couple of times - but still, it's not limited to fringe sects.
    It would be nice if we could get to a place where our community didn’t need a constant stream of fresh corpses to remind it how to behave.

    "Science and faith are fundamentally incompatible, and for precisely the same reason that irrationality and rationality are incompatible. They are different forms of inquiry, with only one, science, equipped to find real truth. And while they may have a dialogue, it's not a constructive one. Science helps religion only by disproving its claims, while religion has nothing to add to science." - J.A.Coyne

  19. #19
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'd like to see a holy book that says, "thou shall not take vaccines."
    I don't know about the states, but over here the strict protestants don't take vaccines at all. No idea whether that is in any book or based on any part of the bible, but they do. And consistently enough that it'd count as a consistent belief.

    And while I don't know about these particular vaccines, in general there are people who can't have them because of medical reasons (with compromised immune system). I think those groups have good arguments against mandating vaccines, and if you exclude them from half of society you could see that as a mandate. Since the goal is to prevent transmission of the virus, giving an alternative that achieves the same sounds like a good idea to me.
    Last edited by Flixy; 04-04-2021 at 11:16 AM. Reason: Fixed autocorrect
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by BalticSailor View Post
    Some prominent Catholics over here have raised objections due to the fact that a cell line originating from an aborted embryo has been used in some point of research and development of certain Covid vaccines. I don't think such concerns have been raised previously related to other vaccines, although I have no idea if such "objectionable" cell lines are employed in development of any of the more commonplace vaccines. Maybe this view is not particularly widespread - I know I've heard of similar concerns from other Catholic priests in other countries a couple of times - but still, it's not limited to fringe sects.
    That's why I specified "opposition to vaccines in general", rather than to specific vaccines

    This article offers a quick overview of the use of fetus-derived cell-lines in the development/production of current vaccines:

    https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020...se-fetal-cells

    Important to note that religious leaders—including Catholic leadership—have determined that even vaccines developed or produced using fetus-derived cell-lines are permissible, when other alternative vaccines are not available. Opposition to specific vaccines on those grounds is more or less a fringe position even among catholics.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I don't know snu the states, but over here the strict protestants don't take vaccines at all. No idea whether that is in any book or based on any part of the bible, but they do. And consistently enough that it'd count as a consistent belief.
    Dutch Reformed Church is one of two notable exceptions wrt general opposition to vaccination on religious grounds, and even they are divided.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  22. #22
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Dutch reformed church is divided in general
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  23. #23
    Can somebody make a compelling case for the reason for vaccine passports, other than for international travel, if everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been vaccinated?

    I can't see it.

    Johnson was fairly clear in this last conference that they are coming, domestically, but I don't think anyone in the cabinet has yet made a decent case for them.

  24. #24
    The only country significantly more vaccinated than the UK, Israel, has removed pretty much all restrictions on domestic life but replaced them with vaccine passports. It has worked there extremely well. If you wish to go to a nightclub or a bar etc you use your "green pass" and that's that.

    The system has worked there. They're basically back to normal, no major restrictions, and R is still cratering and the virus is being eliminated without any forms of lockdown.

    So they work. The question is whether that's both justified from a civil liberties perspective, and whether it's necessary or overkill. I think the risk is not from domestic transmission but reimporting the virus with overseas travel. So my personal solution would be to only have vaccine passports with overseas travel, combined with any country with rates of virus higher than ours (pretty much everywhere except Israel, Aus, NZ and parts of East Asia) should be on a mandatory hotel quarantine red list.

    With my preferred solution then we'd never have domestic passports compulsory, and we could then remove countries from the red list as they join us in removing the virus from general circulation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    Putting the civil liberties question aside, why are they medically justified if everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been vaccinated?

  26. #26
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    There was a similar discussion about being allowed to not accept unvaccinated kids to kindergarten a while ago. The reasoning then was to protect kids with medical issues who couldn't get vaccinated and who were endangered by outbreaks from anti vaxxers.

    I suppose an extra argument is as long as hospitals are under pressure/not fully caught up with backlogs yet, you don't want unvaccinated people causing outbreaks and taking up hospital resources. That obviously depends on the number of unvaccinated people and the situation in hospitals and shouldn't be long term.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gogobongopop View Post
    Putting the civil liberties question aside, why are they medically justified if everyone who wants to be vaccinated has been vaccinated?
    Because vaccines aren't 100% effective, they work with a herd immunity basis. If you're jabbed you're not likely to get infected and aren't likely to infect others. If everyone around you has been jabbed, they're all not likely to be infected and not likely to infect you.

    If there's a community of people who aren't jabbed, they're much more likely to be infected, much more likely to be infectious and thus can pass it on to those who either have been jabbed (but aren't fully protected) or can't be jabbed for medical reasons (eg pregnant women currently aren't). Hence why idiots refusing the MMR leads to Measles outbreaks.

    The scheme proposed has alternatives for the unjabbed such as negative tests, meaning eg unvaccinated pregnant women and the vaccinated could mingle freely, no social distancing, no likely plague carriers in their midst.

    Medically it works. Civil liberties is the issue. The other issue though is the border, if people are going from the UK to Magaluf they're far more likely to be carriers than just people mingling in the UK.

    Another factor with herd immunity is that it works when there isn't an outbreak to stop one spawning, it doesn't necessarily stop an ongoing outbreak. Thus if people are travelling from here (where cases are low, herd immunity could be real) to Paris (where its out of control) then herd immunity becomes more void. Why we'd trample liberties rather than contain it by quarantining those where there's outbreaks is beyond me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  28. #28
    If we don't give the government the power to keep people from negligently killing those around them, why do we even have a government?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Because vaccines aren't 100% effective, they work with a herd immunity basis. If you're jabbed you're not likely to get infected and aren't likely to infect others. If everyone around you has been jabbed, they're all not likely to be infected and not likely to infect you.

    If there's a community of people who aren't jabbed, they're much more likely to be infected, much more likely to be infectious and thus can pass it on to those who either have been jabbed (but aren't fully protected) or can't be jabbed for medical reasons (eg pregnant women currently aren't). Hence why idiots refusing the MMR leads to Measles outbreaks.

    The scheme proposed has alternatives for the unjabbed such as negative tests, meaning eg unvaccinated pregnant women and the vaccinated could mingle freely, no social distancing, no likely plague carriers in their midst.

    Medically it works. Civil liberties is the issue. The other issue though is the border, if people are going from the UK to Magaluf they're far more likely to be carriers than just people mingling in the UK.

    Another factor with herd immunity is that it works when there isn't an outbreak to stop one spawning, it doesn't necessarily stop an ongoing outbreak. Thus if people are travelling from here (where cases are low, herd immunity could be real) to Paris (where its out of control) then herd immunity becomes more void. Why we'd trample liberties rather than contain it by quarantining those where there's outbreaks is beyond me.
    Agree with all of this.

    But if these are the reasons then we should have had vaccine passports to enter shops, schools, football grounds, hair dressers and other's homes decades ago, surely?

    Are they now essential because this virus is more deadly and easy to spread than other viruses? What's the criteria for needing a passport and not?

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    If we don't give the government the power to keep people from negligently killing those around them, why do we even have a government?
    How about to stop people deliberately killing those around them?

    There are no excess deaths in the UK currently. The pandemic is over.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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