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Thread: Matt Gaetz under investigation b/c of suspected sex trafficking of a minor

  1. #1

    Default Matt Gaetz under investigation b/c of suspected sex trafficking of a minor

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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  2. #2
    #Pizzagate needs updating.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    This is the same creep who bragged about having a 19 year old cuban poolboy to show he wasn't racist. Then had to clarify that he wasn't actually gay.

    It's always projection with these asshats.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  5. #5
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

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    I don't know the case and won't bother to inform myself.

    But I would like to point out that rules against human trafficking are regularly used against people who are not engaged in human trafficking in any real meaning of the term.
    Congratulations America

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I don't know the case and won't bother to inform myself.

    But I would like to point out that rules against human trafficking are regularly used against people who are not engaged in human trafficking in any real meaning of the term.
    In this particular case the charge appears to stem from Gaetz (allegedly) paying to enable a minor to cross state lines in order to have sex with her (ie. pay for her travel- & hotel costs).

    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    I know the charges. But I also know how low the bar is placed. Helping refugees for example is easily framed as human trafficking. People have gone to prison for pickin up hitch hikers.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I know the charges. But I also know how low the bar is placed. Helping refugees for example is easily framed as human trafficking. People have gone to prison for pickin up hitch hikers.
    No, I get that—I'm saying that that's where the bar is placed, in this case. The bar for the (potential) charge of sex trafficking in the case of Matt Gaetz and the 17-y-o girl appears to be "did he pay any money to enable a 17-y-o girl to travel to another state for the purpose of having sex with her?" afaict. Prosecutors will always go as far as the law lets them go.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  10. #10
    Seems amusing having 17 year olds referred to as minors in this case.

    In the UK this would be creepy but legal, unless the adult was in a position of trust (eg teacher etc) over the 17 year old.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Seems amusing having 17 year olds referred to as minors in this case.

    In the UK this would be creepy but legal, unless the adult was in a position of trust (eg teacher etc) over the 17 year old.
    Same here, I think. Though it would certainly be a political scandal leading to resignation. Also makes you vulnerable for blackmail, which is not something you want from people with access to sensitive and secret information.

    Of course any additional allegations like the drugs and using campaign money would be illegal here as well. And if he paid for sex, prostitution is of course illegal for minors as well.

    Side note, calling paying for your date's hotel and travel expenses trafficking seems a bit much. If having sex with a minor is illegal, it's statutory rape I suppose, but this doesn't seem like what's the intent of anti trafficking laws. Unless there's details we're not aware of.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  12. #12
    In general, I think the intent of the US criminal code—esp. when it comes to sex—is to punish perpetrators as much as possible... or to threaten them with as much punishment as possible, in order to pressure them into accepting plea bargains.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Sure, but in my opinion that's not a good approach, and it still isn't when I strongly dislike the person under investigation.

    That said, if that'd how the US rolls, they of course shouldn't give him any special treatment, so I imagine that includes jailtime and registering as a sex offender if found guilty.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    In general, I think the intent of the US criminal code—esp. when it comes to sex—is to punish perpetrators as much as possible... or to threaten them with as much punishment as possible, in order to pressure them into accepting plea bargains.

    In this particular instance, part of the issue is that the Feds had to step in to stop constant legal battles between states with different Age-of-Consent laws as people tried to circumvent more restrictive ones (and of course those particular states are the ones which cared the most about seeing their laws enforced) and in order for them to regulate, they have to come at it in a certain way.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Same here, I think. Though it would certainly be a political scandal leading to resignation. Also makes you vulnerable for blackmail, which is not something you want from people with access to sensitive and secret information.

    Of course any additional allegations like the drugs and using campaign money would be illegal here as well. And if he paid for sex, prostitution is of course illegal for minors as well.

    Side note, calling paying for your date's hotel and travel expenses trafficking seems a bit much. If having sex with a minor is illegal, it's statutory rape I suppose, but this doesn't seem like what's the intent of anti trafficking laws. Unless there's details we're not aware of.
    You're wrong about the central act he's charged with under Dutch law. He could be charged for having sex with a minor in exchange for any kind of payment. That comes with time in prison.
    Congratulations America

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    In this particular instance, part of the issue is that the Feds had to step in to stop constant legal battles between states with different Age-of-Consent laws as people tried to circumvent more restrictive ones (and of course those particular states are the ones which cared the most about seeing their laws enforced) and in order for them to regulate, they have to come at it in a certain way.
    Ah, of course... I hadn't considered that aspect of "crossing state lines"
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Ah, of course... I hadn't considered that aspect of "crossing state lines"
    Really? It was the first thing I noticed.
    Congratulations America

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Really? It was the first thing I noticed.
    For some reason I've always just thought of that as a weird American thing, like putting marshmallows in everything
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
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    Well, the way it's used is typically American.
    Congratulations America

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You're wrong about the central act he's charged with under Dutch law. He could be charged for having sex with a minor in exchange for any kind of payment. That comes with time in prison.
    Yes, of course, and I added that if he paid (= prostitution) it'd be illegal, but would paying for her hotel (so not paying her, just her expenses) count as paying for sex?

    If he is alleged to have actually paid her, I missed that, my apologies. Thought it was about him paying her trip and hotel.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  21. #21
    If paying for something for a date - a room, a meal, drinks or anything else - was prostitution then almost every man in the world, and almost as many women too, would be guilty of solicitation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Yes, of course, and I added that if he paid (= prostitution) it'd be illegal, but would paying for her hotel (so not paying her, just her expenses) count as paying for sex?

    If he is alleged to have actually paid her, I missed that, my apologies. Thought it was about him paying her trip and hotel.
    It would not be relevant. Giving her money in direct exchange or paying for her ticket, hotel and expenses would still fall under the definition of engaging in prostitution with a minor. As soon as there is an exchange of anything of value in combination with a sexual relationship you're almost certain of being guilty of prostitution if the other person is under 18.

    I may be mistaken but I think that's probably also the reason with which you justify the existence of the law he is accused of breaking in the US. For Congress to legislate an element of trade should be present in the facts.
    Congratulations America

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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If paying for something for a date - a room, a meal, drinks or anything else - was prostitution then almost every man in the world, and almost as many women too, would be guilty of solicitation.
    You are forgetting the requirement of the other party being underage. It protects young people over the age of consent from exploitation.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You are forgetting the requirement of the other party being underage. It protects young people over the age of consent from exploitation.
    Sex with anyone underage is automatically criminal in the first place, whether anything is paid for or not.

    If a date is consensual and appropriate then paying for rooms etc is not prostitution.

    If a date is not consensual it is rape and should be prosecuted regardless of paying for rooms etc.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Sex with anyone underage is automatically criminal in the first place, whether anything is paid for or not.

    If a date is consensual and appropriate then paying for rooms etc is not prostitution.

    If a date is not consensual it is rape and should be prosecuted regardless of paying for rooms etc.
    The issue is that the age could be consensual if you entice a person to go to a state with a lower age of consent.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  26. #26
    If its consensual and legal then what's the problem? Legally.

    As I said in the UK the age of consent is 16 - albeit 18 if the older person is in a position of trust over the individual. So this would be creepy but legal here.

    Being a creep isn't illegal. It is however something voters might want to judge someone by.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If its consensual and legal then what's the problem? Legally.

    As I said in the UK the age of consent is 16 - albeit 18 if the older person is in a position of trust over the individual. So this would be creepy but legal here.

    Being a creep isn't illegal. It is however something voters might want to judge someone by.
    Let's say someone pays for a 12-year-old British girl to go to the Philippines (where the age of consent is 12) and have sex with them there. Is that ok?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #28
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It would not be relevant. Giving her money in direct exchange or paying for her ticket, hotel and expenses would still fall under the definition of engaging in prostitution with a minor. As soon as there is an exchange of anything of value in combination with a sexual relationship you're almost certain of being guilty of prostitution if the other person is under 18.

    I may be mistaken but I think that's probably also the reason with which you justify the existence of the law he is accused of breaking in the US. For Congress to legislate an element of trade should be present in the facts.
    So if you're 19 and your date is 17, dating and sex is legal, as far as I know, but if you pay their bus ticket to come by it's prostitution with a minor?
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Let's say someone pays for a 12-year-old British girl to go to the Philippines (where the age of consent is 12) and have sex with them there. Is that ok?
    Interesting question, I don't know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    If paying for something for a date - a room, a meal, drinks or anything else - was prostitution then almost every man in the world, and almost as many women too, would be guilty of solicitation.
    Paying for shared drinks, meals, accomodations, etc. is not. Paying for theirs explicitly/exclusively, OTOH. . . which is why paying for the travel is always brought up in these cases, even if it doesn't involve crossing any state lines.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    So if you're 19 and your date is 17, dating and sex is legal, as far as I know, but if you pay their bus ticket to come by it's prostitution with a minor?
    Yeah. If your date can't pay their own way travel-wise then you're opening yourself to prosecution if you won't pick them up yourself. Incidentally "will you pay my gas" is one of the most frequently used euphemisms for "pay-to-play" in the hook-up social media subset in my area. Though it still does not begin to compare to all the people offering their "certified massage services".
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

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