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Thread: Organized crime, how to deal with it.

  1. #1
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    Default Organized crime, how to deal with it.

    Tonight an attempt was made on the life of a Dutch crime reporter. Peter R. de Vries was shot at several times. He's in a critical condition in hospital at the moment. There are some reports he was shot in the head.

    The (would-be) assassin and his helpers were arrested. The most likely reason for this attempt was his involvement in a case against a man who's at the moment being prosecuted for leading a drug trafficking organization. The same man is suspected of being behind the murder of the lawyer of a witness for the prosecution. The motive is most likely revenge and intimidation.

    I don't really know how to react to it. On the one hand, the man is in prison, his hired hands are under arrest. Everything seems to be under control. On the other hand it also feels as if we're slipping towards a situation similar to Mexico where unscrupulous criminals aren't seriously restricted at all.
    Congratulations America

  2. #2
    Firstly, I'm shocked that even an organized crime group would attempt a hit on a twisted mentat in the employ of House Harkonnen. Those guys are lucky the police got them first.

    Secondly, organized crime is, regrettably, a fact of life in every country on the planet. Just because you have it doesn't mean you're heading towards a Mexico situation. In my opinion, the most important thing is to not them corrupt the political and judicial system, as this leads them to feel (often correctly) that they are above or beyond the law and do not need to feel the wrath of state if they take things too far, as with Mexico or Sicily in the 70 through to the 90s.

    This of course, means having a political and judicial system that is not corrupt to begin with

    Also stop making dumb shit illegal. The American mafia wouldn't exist today, at least in the current form, if it weren't for prohibition.
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
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    True, we don't have mass murder yet. But we have lawyers and journalists being executed in broad daylight. We also have criminals killing each other, each other's family members and sometimes the poor sod who happened to have the wrong taste in cars. Very often, also in broad daylight, with serious risk of bystanders getting hurt or killed. The murder attempt of tonight seriously feels like a a further step on the escalation ladder, not as an incident.
    Congratulations America

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Firstly, I'm shocked that even an organized crime group would attempt a hit on a twisted mentat in the employ of House Harkonnen. Those guys are lucky the police got them first.
    You beat me to it.

    As for the rest, Hazir, I broadly agree with Steely. Organized crime is pretty much a fixture of modern life; I find it unlikely that it will be possible to eliminate it entirely. (In some ways, organized crime is actually 'better' than less organized crime - that is, when there is not a clear hegemon controlling the local black and grey markets, you tend to get much bloodier conflicts.) What sets a country apart is not the presence of violent organized criminals, but its ability to successfully detain and prosecute them. A functioning justice system that is not irretrievably corrupt is what's important, and I have little doubt that the Netherlands meets that bar. Many places in Central America, alas, are not as lucky.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

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    Still a gang leader in detention manages to order people outside being killed. This is more than a little worrying.
    Congratulations America

  6. #6
    This is pretty common AIUI, for high ranking leaders in criminal organizations to continue to exert control from jail. Absent curtailing civil rights completely I don't see a good way to stop it.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  7. #7
    To deal with organized crime, use organized law enforcement.
    Do not ley criminals to control law enforcement (police or courts).
    Politics lacks some concept of morality and there is a risk of parallel political organizations organizing criminal activities with political or economical purposes.
    If an institution grows unaccountable, it could be dangerous.
    If you study the political history of Argentina 1970 to 2000 you will find very interesting elements present in today's first world politics.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    This is pretty common AIUI, for high ranking leaders in criminal organizations to continue to exert control from jail. Absent curtailing civil rights completely I don't see a good way to stop it.
    So, if you attract the ire of a top criminal the state won't be able to protect you, and that's it?

    This reporter is the third person who almost certainly was shot on the orders of the same man. First was the brother of a witness, a man who had no connections to crime other than that his brother worked in Taghi' s organization, a lawyer and now this journalist. And these are just the three cases that we know of.

    I think it's not trivial if the state fails so blatantly.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    Tonight an attempt was made on the life of a Dutch crime reporter. Peter R. de Vries was shot at several times. He's in a critical condition in hospital at the moment. There are some reports he was shot in the head.

    The (would-be) assassin and his helpers were arrested. The most likely reason for this attempt was his involvement in a case against a man who's at the moment being prosecuted for leading a drug trafficking organization. The same man is suspected of being behind the murder of the lawyer of a witness for the prosecution. The motive is most likely revenge and intimidation.

    I don't really know how to react to it. On the one hand, the man is in prison, his hired hands are under arrest. Everything seems to be under control. On the other hand it also feels as if we're slipping towards a situation similar to Mexico where unscrupulous criminals aren't seriously restricted at all.
    A number of European countries are seeing the rise of organized crime of a breed they're not very familiar with. They should've addressed this a couple of decades ago, but, even now, they can probably benefit from seeking assistance from countries with more experience—eg. the US, Italy, etc. There are no doubts important legal reforms that can be made in order to facilitate the work against this form of criminal activity, but, in addition to that, they may need to take a different approach to policing—eg. holding off on making arrests until they can largely neutralize an organization. I dunno. Tragic either way.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So, if you attract the ire of a top criminal the state won't be able to protect you, and that's it?

    This reporter is the third person who almost certainly was shot on the orders of the same man. First was the brother of a witness, a man who had no connections to crime other than that his brother worked in Taghi' s organization, a lawyer and now this journalist. And these are just the three cases that we know of.

    I think it's not trivial if the state fails so blatantly.
    It is indeed a big problem, but even if you are able to get a court order to completely cut off a prisoner from visitation (because of a well founded concern that they will direct illegal activity), you can't possibly keep them from seeing their lawyer, or from communications with their lawyer being privileged. They can and will be able to communicate with the outside world, and if they have a loyal power base, they will still be able to work effectively.

    Tackling organized crime is very difficult and complex and requires sustained effort and resources. You can't just go for the top leadership and senior lieutenants any more than you can just go after the foot soldiers. You need a comprehensive effort to disrupt their operations - their sources of funds and ability to move money around, their communications, their markets and supply chains (for whatever particular illegal good they are selling), weapons, recruiting pool, etc. Part of that is detaining leadership but it's not terribly effective without all of the other pieces.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  11. #11
    There's a give and take between respecting certain rights and being as effective as you can against criminals. I honestly think we've seen the pendulum swing far too much to the rights of criminals. I see no reason why in rare scenarios where a crime lord is clearly doing things like still running operations while in prison that they can't have 24/7 surveillance with zero exceptions. Carve outs can be created that what is observed during attorney client discussions can't be used to convict someone for prior crimes but every piece of oral communication that is uttered by the guy is picked up and the attorney who passes on messages gets thrown in prison if caught.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    There's a give and take between respecting certain rights and being as effective as you can against criminals. I honestly think we've seen the pendulum swing far too much to the rights of criminals. I see no reason why in rare scenarios where a crime lord is clearly doing things like still running operations while in prison that they can't have 24/7 surveillance with zero exceptions. Carve outs can be created that what is observed during attorney client discussions can't be used to convict someone for prior crimes but every piece of oral communication that is uttered by the guy is picked up and the attorney who passes on messages gets thrown in prison if caught.
    One thing that really irks me is that the lawyer of the biggest gang is becoming a celebrity in her own right. I seriously don't understand why she keeps getting asked for TV-programs. Including programs where the only reason she's asked at all obviously is that she's somewhat notorious now.

    I just read an article about this man having possibly pre-planned a break-out from the high security prison where he's being held. Details involve 'death squad', 'tens of millions', 'eastern european mercenaries' and 'possible extreme violence'. I think we're a lot closer to Mexican situations than you'd expect from a western European country.
    Congratulations America

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    And now a show has been pulled by one of the networks due to serious threats. It is a show on which De Vries was a regular.
    Congratulations America

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    There's a give and take between respecting certain rights and being as effective as you can against criminals. I honestly think we've seen the pendulum swing far too much to the rights of criminals. I see no reason why in rare scenarios where a crime lord is clearly doing things like still running operations while in prison that they can't have 24/7 surveillance with zero exceptions. Carve outs can be created that what is observed during attorney client discussions can't be used to convict someone for prior crimes but every piece of oral communication that is uttered by the guy is picked up and the attorney who passes on messages gets thrown in prison if caught.
    It's already illegal for an attorney to assist their client in committing another crime (in the US) and they can also be disbarred for that. Since attorney-client communications are privileged, it sounds like you want to lower the bar for getting warrants -- more along the lines of those FISA court warrants you've railed about in the past?

    One glaring problem (in the US) is that we don't have clear legal designations -- or laws -- aimed at Domestic Terrorism. But organized crime/mafias are basically terrorists. Using the same criteria would likely 'ensnare' all sorts of other fringe groups like sovereign nation militias, neo-Nazis, The Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, Aryan Cowboys, Proud Boys, etc. that hide in plain sight. *cough*

    Hazir, does the Dutch system have laws about Domestic Terrorism that could be used in this case?

  15. #15
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    One thing that really irks me is that the lawyer of the biggest gang is becoming a celebrity in her own right. I seriously don't understand why she keeps getting asked for TV-programs. Including programs where the only reason she's asked at all obviously is that she's somewhat notorious now.

    I just read an article about this man having possibly pre-planned a break-out from the high security prison where he's being held. Details involve 'death squad', 'tens of millions', 'eastern european mercenaries' and 'possible extreme violence'. I think we're a lot closer to Mexican situations than you'd expect from a western European country.
    I do think an important distinction with 'Mexican situations' is that the police/ military/ government isn't structurally part of organized crime as well.

    But yeah, this is bad. No idea what could be done about it though - I also don't want to give up the basic principles of our rights just because some fucker thinks he's the godfather.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    It's already illegal for an attorney to assist their client in committing another crime (in the US) and they can also be disbarred for that. Since attorney-client communications are privileged, it sounds like you want to lower the bar for getting warrants -- more along the lines of those FISA court warrants you've railed about in the past?

    One glaring problem (in the US) is that we don't have clear legal designations -- or laws -- aimed at Domestic Terrorism. But organized crime/mafias are basically terrorists. Using the same criteria would likely 'ensnare' all sorts of other fringe groups like sovereign nation militias, neo-Nazis, The Oath Keepers, the Three Percenters, Aryan Cowboys, Proud Boys, etc. that hide in plain sight. *cough*

    Hazir, does the Dutch system have laws about Domestic Terrorism that could be used in this case?
    Not really. We don't even have legislation in place yet that's taking into account the nature of organized crime these days.

    Italian experts have been critical of Dutch policies not taking into account that crimes take place in in framework and can't be ended on a case by case basis. You need to take on the structures behind the individual crimes.
    Congratulations America

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    The reporter has unfortunately passed away due to his injuries.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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    I realised it shocked me more than I'd thought possible. Two days ago I had to go to the appartment in the city. Which is literally the next street from where he was killed, and on the way out I had to drive past the spot where he was killed. People were standing there, paying their respect. And it gave me an actual chil when I turned on the radio in the car an hour ago and understood from the way they talked about him that he probably had died.

    The first thing I would like to happen is for Dutch TV to stop gloryfying these criminals and their hired helps like Inez Weski. I'm happy the actual shooters have already arrested, but I hope they can find out by whom and how the orders to murder De Vries were passed along.
    Congratulations America

  19. #19
    Organized crime is a type of terrorism. I'm wondering if we've gotten so caught up in the semantics and definitions of terrorism (is it a "lone wolf" or a small fringe extremist group; is it domestic, international, institutional, or state-sponsored, etc.) that we've created our own conundrum?


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