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Thread: "Work is a False Idol"

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    So, do we have to have a global pandemic every time we want wages to increase?
    The event that had the single biggest positive effect on wages was the Black Plague. It effectively ended serfdom in Western Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    That small percentage of companies is accounting for an increasing large percentage of the workforce, as the trend of monopolization continues. I think they're up to 40% now, depending on what you mean by a 'large company'.

    In any case, If everyone working the lowest paid jobs at walmart and McDonalds suddenly had 1.5x or 2x the amount of money in their pockets at the end of the month what do you think they're going do with it? Spend it, which is going to benefit smaller businesses just as much as everyone else. Also consider that McDonalds isn't just affecting McDonalds it's all the companies they use in their supply chain, and the downward pressure they exert on prices affecting wages of, for example, the agriculture works previously mentioned.

    Also, then consider that everything I wrote is total bullshit, a stupid fantasy for a clown - absent any other incentive or pressure, none of extra revenue or lowered costs generated in this scenario will ever be passed on to customers as lower prices or to employees as higher wages, it will be taken as additional profit.
    Bad example with McDonald's. A vast majority of their stores are owned by franchisees. If you sharply increase their costs, no one's going to want to be a McDonald's franchisee. Also, people go to McDonald's because it's cheap. If it's no longer one of the cheapest options, people will dine elsewhere. The only way these franchisees don't go bankrupt is if other fast food places simultaneously increase wages by a similar amount.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #32
    Right, but they still take their share of the profits out of the franchise through rent and royalties. It's not like "here, take our branding and product and just do what you like". So they could take less out of their franchises profits who in turn could then take those savings and increase wages, but neither of those things will actually occur.
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Right, but they still take their share of the profits out of the franchise through rent and royalties. It's not like "here, take our branding and product and just do what you like". So they could take less out of their franchises profits who in turn could then take those savings and increase wages, but neither of those things will actually occur.
    I can't imagine that would be very popular with their shareholders.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Right, but they still take their share of the profits out of the franchise through rent and royalties. It's not like "here, take our branding and product and just do what you like". So they could take less out of their franchises profits who in turn could then take those savings and increase wages, but neither of those things will actually occur.
    This is so popular with the insurance industry that so much of the "profits" are sent upstream for name licensing, branding, and advertising, that in the event of mass claims the "company" that licensed the name folds up and all the customers are left high and dry.
    "In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I can't imagine that would be very popular with their shareholders.
    Nor good for your 401K.
    .

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    You guys are completely leaving out a large part of the potential labor force that is not accounted for in any of these studies. There exists a very large population of self employed workers who do not report to the establishment and it is this group that could benefit from the jobs I mentioned. These people prefer to sell drugs, sell sex or steal from other people to make ends meet. Another portion of potential labor force you ignore prefer to leach off of family or friends until tough love kicks them to the curb. Seems you only concentrate on people who might want to be part of the establishment (in other words, earn points toward SS etc.) if doing so inconveniences them less than not doing so.
    I don't know about sex workers and theft is so hugely variable it's impossible to talk about it in general terms but it's not affluenza keeping drug dealers from taking those kinds of jobs. It's common sense. They'll earn substantailly more dealing than they will cleaning sheets.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I already said customers need to be willing to pay more so proprietors can pay their employees more.
    I think this is missing the point. These are all market signals. If it is impossible to produce a good or service that both (a) pays workers enough/treats them well enough that they are willing to manufacture/provide said good/service AND (b) has enough demand in the market to justify a price that covers costs and a reasonable margin, then the good or service should not exist in the market.

    If consumers won't pay up and companies can't attract workers at low enough wages to turn a profit, the good or service is clearly not worth it. And that's okay! I have run across many gold plated solutions/technologies in my time that had input prices that were far too high to justify the marginal utility to the final consumer. However, I suspect that in reality most of the products/services we're talking about actually can command higher prices on the market, and/or (as Steely suggests) companies have a lot more room in their margin to eat increased input prices.
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  8. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I can't imagine that would be very popular with their shareholders.
    Indeed, and now where know where the problem lies
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Indeed, and now where know where the problem lies
    Yes, shareholders are in fact consumers.
    .

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Yes, shareholders are in fact consumers.
    I mean, in the sense that (if they're individuals not investment firms or other orgs) they also go to the store and buy things, but they aren't actually purchasing the product the company makes and so they wouldn't be the ones negatively affected by price hikes.
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  11. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    I mean, in the sense that (if they're individuals not investment firms or other orgs) they also go to the store and buy things, but they aren't actually purchasing the product the company makes and so they wouldn't be the ones negatively affected by price hikes.
    Investment firms, pension funds, mutual funds and such purchase shares for shareholders. Doesn't matter if they are individuals buying shares or investment firms purchasing for a group of inactive participants. The inactive participants are just as much shareholders as individual buyers, they just don't necessarily know what they are invested in.
    .

  12. #42
    A consumer is someone who purchases something to use it for themselves. 'Buying shares' is stretching that definition to breaking point, and even without that it's unclear what point you're even making.
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  13. #43
    He's explaining that he's very sophisticated and you're a communist child.
    “Humanity's greatest advances are not in its discoveries, but in how those discoveries are applied to reduce inequity.”
    — Bill Gates

  14. #44
    Communism is when you pay people to perform labour, and the more you pay them the more communisms it is.
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    A consumer is someone who purchases something to use it for themselves. 'Buying shares' is stretching that definition to breaking point, and even without that it's unclear what point you're even making.
    The point is you told Loki that making shareholders happy is the problem. Everyone that puts money in a pension fund, mutual fund, 401K etc is a shareholder. That is basically everybody that works for a taxable wage. Consumers.
    .

  16. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    He's explaining that he's very sophisticated and you're a communist child.
    You are a trouble maker. Don't you need to go cure somebody?
    .

  17. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    The point is you told Loki that making shareholders happy is the problem. Everyone that puts money in a pension fund, mutual fund, 401K etc is a shareholder. That is basically everybody that works for a taxable wage. Consumers.
    It's actually not basically everyone that works for a taxable wage. 1/5 Americans have no retirement savings at all, and quite a lot of the rest have some but not much; hard to save for retirement property when most of your monthly income goes on living expenses.

    Secondly, it's not exactly Doris and George, boomer retirees, standing up at a shareholder meeting, banging the table and screaming, "I want these fuckers on $10 an hour so I can get a second Subaru Impreza" (or whatever happens), is it?
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  18. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually not basically everyone that works for a taxable wage. 1/5 Americans have no retirement savings at all, and quite a lot of the rest have some but not much; hard to save for retirement property when most of your monthly income goes on living expenses.

    Secondly, it's not exactly Doris and George, boomer retirees, standing up at a shareholder meeting, banging the table and screaming, "I want these fuckers on $10 an hour so I can get a second Subaru Impreza" (or whatever happens), is it?
    Who do you believe shareholders are?



    https://awealthofcommonsense.com/201...-stocks-bonds/
    .

  19. #49
    Who do you think they are?

    From your source:

    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  20. #50
    [QUOTE=Steely Glint;228467]Who do you think they are?

    Consumers who will be unhappy paying more for their hamburgers.
    .

  21. #51
    Back on that again, huh?
    Spent my days watching and waiting, killed my faith participating
    In this crusade still masquerading as the lie that we're creating
    Blinding lights leave me in silence, hopes and dreams taken with violence
    Right and wrong have made alliance, now I will turn in defiance

  22. #52
    Interesting comments -- that ended up like a supply & demand economic debate, or defining labor markets and profit margins -- instead of workers becoming disillusioned/disappointed by most workplaces, and deciding to change their life-work balance as a form of resistance.

    Some of you mentioned it's *how* workers are treated or valued that can matter more than wages, and it seems that's what "Tangping" is all about. That would explain why even highly educated/skilled professionals are leaving their fields (like healthcare and education and finance) to re-evaluate whether working themselves to death is actually worth it.


    Being, you kinda took the bait about (American) workers being spoiled or lazy, as if it's a character flaw to expect a living wage AND not be exploited by an employer -- which is what the (Chinese) government is saying about this movement in order to de-legitimize it, and nip it in the bud, with their propaganda.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    ...
    Being, you kinda took the bait about (American) workers being spoiled or lazy, as if it's a character flaw to expect a living wage AND not be exploited by an employer -- which is what the (Chinese) government is saying about this movement in order to de-legitimize it, and nip it in the bud, with their propaganda.
    You want people to work, dontcha? Or would you prefer dirty dishes and dirty sheets because workers re-evaluated whether working themselves to death is actually worth it and decided to go on the dole while selling drugs and sex to make ends meet?
    .

  24. #54
    Being, you sound like my father. He didn't understand Labor Unions or workers' advocates, and thought the 60's generation was dominated by a bunch of lazy hippies who either didn't want to work and "went on the dole", or turned to criminal activities.

    I can sort of understand why he believed these things, since he was born in 1926....

    edit: My dad worked his entire life for one megacorporation, even tho he hated it, and it sucked his soul dry, mostly because it was a "secure" job that had good "benefits". He thought hating his job and being treated like crap was part of the career-track deal. He wouldn't have understood my decision to leave Nursing -- "burnout" wasn't something he understood.

    I like to think if he was alive and young today, he would have quit his job with the megacorporation and followed his passion. That would probably mean he'd have traded the insurance industry for growing roses.
    Last edited by GGT; 09-04-2021 at 04:21 AM.

  25. #55
    First, what is a living wage? Second, how expensive are you willing to make things so workers can earn a living wage and not be exploited by an employer? And third, who does the employer work for?
    .

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    First, what is a living wage? Second, how expensive are you willing to make things so workers can earn a living wage and not be exploited by an employer? And third, who does the employer work for?
    My dad worked for Allstate (from the day he graduated college until the day he died) because they had great employee insurance, and he had a lot of medical expenses that could never by paid out-of-pocket. He was basically stranded in our employer-based, for-profit healthcare system...but paradoxically felt grateful while perpetuating the insurance scheme.

    "Tangping" is a new way of looking at work that weighs the personal (micro) against the conventional macro-economics. Ideally, people should be working for their own goals and satisfactions, and their employers shouldn't get a huge profit based on predation or exploitation.

    Facebook is "free", right?

  27. #57
    It wasn't too long ago that people were saying jobs at McDonald's were entry level positions for teenagers looking for pocket change. It took years to convince them that wasn't true, and that millions of adult workers (with children) were working 2-3 of those jobs to make ends meet. Living paycheck to paycheck.

    The main point is that WORK has changed dramatically. Even lawyers can be replaced with AI algorithms. It's logical that millions of people are re-evaluating all the dynamics, because they're easily expendable and replaceable. Work has become a false idol.

  28. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Ideally, people should be working for their own goals and satisfactions...
    More often than not people's goals and satisfaction come from outside work. Work is what they do so they can afford their happiness.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    ...their employers shouldn't get a huge profit based on predation or exploitation.
    Again I ask who do the employers work for? Yes, they make their living doing their job but they work for whoever is consuming their goods or services and everyone else (such as shareholders) who benefit from the sale of those goods and services. You need to look deeper at who the predators and exploiters are because laying it on the shoulders of the employers is wrong. The employers work for you and me.
    .

  29. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    aka Lying Flat or Tangping in China.
    The US has millions of job openings, but can't find enough people to fill the spots. Are people just fed up with the whole capitalistic exploitation system of "work", or are they simply spoiled and lazy whiners? Discuss...
    Some people blame stimulus checks, but Canada also had the great resignation 2021. What happened in Canada:
    * Boomers: They would retire massively in 2030. But COVID pushed it forward. In other times they would retire and continue working. Not anymore,
    * Borders. With closed borders due to COVID, imported cheap workers are no more.
    * Millenials: During this crisis they were mistreated and companies showed them they were discardable. And with working from home many are not willing to go to a workplace. Some found an alternate way to make a living and some discovered that working half working day and teaching English they made a few bucks less than when they were working 12 hours a day.
    So if you think that makes people whiners, you will need to call Canadians as whiners too. Companies expect to see borders having the normal flow of people. But new variants will arise. So I feel that there will be a long lockdown.

    In third world countries a farmer would get up at 5AM to work on the land and would stop working at 2PM. Yeah, lots of hard work without machinery. But they has a slow lifestyle. The rest of the day was available to have a life. Amazingly, automation came, and lifestyle became faster and faster. Probably because we want everything right now.

    In the Asian nation you mentioned, people realized that even if they work hard all their life they will not be rich. S youths picked the "lying flat" mindset. Minimialistic lifestyle, work half day, absolute austerity and peace of mind. The future promises a bigger crisis with demographic crisis. Young people will be in short supply, and nowadays it is very expensive to raise kids, and people have no time and no money fpr that. Many people aspire to be a government official, or a white collar worker, and no one wants to work in a factory anymore. So education reform to add factory skills have resulted in protests that were severely crushed and foreign interference was blamed as usual.

    Regime: We have the control and you can do nothing
    Citizen: Ok. I will do nothing (lying flat)
    Regime: (Pikachu face)

    If we extrapolate from that, the future promises lots of trouble. While a few billionaires followers of eugenics and the idea of fighting overpopulation (because more people are harder to control) what will happen is that with less young people, companies and armies will have to fight to get young people. You will see fighter pilots with bad eyesight and fat soldiers probably. The only way these billionaires could keep control of that mess where young people have more bargaining power is to implement totalitarian communism where a central body decides everything about everyone. That may work against tamed peasants, but not for every human on the planet.

    Insurrection begins when you do not recognize the authority of a bully and you disobey the bully. Subversion starts when you take a defect of the bully and you start helping the bully to hit rockbottom. Very much like in martial arts, you do not stop the fist. You grab the fist and pull and accelerate it, so the bully hits the wall.

    If you think of it, work is about exchanging time for money. The financial system has interests that grow exponentially, while physical resources decay exponentially. So rich people have tried to find ways to keep costs low to achieve that exponential growth. Inviting women to work allows a change in supply/demand in the job market. When they could not lower costs, they went for foreign cheap workers and flooded other countries with jobs. But as jobs flood changed supply/demand in poor countries, they needed to find pockets of cheap labor. And now they want a world government so they can move cheap workers freely. They want to have the cake and eat it too. You cannot have abundant cheap labor when there are no children and families. Companies have absorbed all the time and made family life so unaffordable, that they will face a demographic crisis. Slave birth rate has always been zero.

    The Spanish empire believed the dream of infinite wealth. At the time gold was their currency and they were extracting incredible amounts of gold (printing money) to a degree that what they manage to obtain was not infinite wealth but inflation. And king Felipe II made debt to grow faster than gold mining, so in the end he had to make concessions and deals with 75 year duration, sinking the Spanish empire in a century of crisis, ending the empire. Nowadays people say going back to gold currency is the best. It is not. And once again they dream of infinite wealth with infinite cheap labor and UBI. I have news, romans already tried it. In the last 300 years of Roman empire, the amount of slaves went to the roof. Slaves were doing all the work, so job scarcity was a thing. They had to implement "panem et circenses" subsidy of food and tickets to entertain yourself. Government had reduced revenue and had problems to sustain itself, let alone conquer new lands. Ideological division caused by "bizantinisms" pushed the division of the empire. Bizantinisms are absurd questions where answers make people to fight. "how many angels can you fit in a golf ball" could be an example of such stupid questions. Historians have tried to tell us that perv politicians were the ones who ended the empire. In a way that could be part of the problem, not the whole set of causes. A politician who thinks below the waist most of time will not rule using the brain.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  30. #60
    This article certainly fits here. The premise opposes my arguments but I think it's wrong. People are just getting more comfortable foraging bread lines and SNAP. Either way shareholders (you and me for those haven't been keeping up) are due some comeuppance in the near future stock dive.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/mark...pEG?li=BBnbfcL
    .

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