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Thread: Why Government Unions Suck

  1. #1

    Default Why Government Unions Suck

    America doesn't have quite as bad of a problem with its unions as it could have. Lets look at another country and see what kind of economic hell hole the unions have made of it.

    http://www.economist.com/world/europ...ry_id=16274181

    *************

    FRANCISCO GRANADOS, a conservative Spanish politician, works in a tastefully modernised palace. He is guarded at street level by men in quaint uniforms (in his case, Civil Guards in patent-leather tricorne hats) and upstairs by serried ranks of aides. His limousine waits in the square below, watched over by pigeons and the bust of a dead aristocrat. All in all, he offers a fine study of political power as it is exercised across Europe every day.

    Mr Granados, a minister in Madrid’s regional government, administers more than 160,000 public servants. Add those who work for the central government, the city and other boroughs, and half a million of the capital’s 6.5m residents work for the state, he reckons. A further million are retired, a million are children and more than half a million are unemployed (national jobless rates are almost 20%, with youth rates double that). In short, almost half of all Madrileños depend on the state in some way.

    Following other European countries, Spain’s Socialist central government recently announced austerity plans. Cutting public spending fast is not easy, and it is no coincidence that governments have trimmed things they directly control, like public-sector salaries: measures range from a pay freeze in Italy to a 25% pay cut in Romania.

    With an eye to public opinion, governments have also tackled symbols of privilege, making deep cuts to ministerial pay or limousine fleets. Even in France, where the government rejects talk of “austerity” or public-sector pay cuts, the political elite is doing its bit: the education minister is reported to have started to decorate his offices with artificial flowers.

    In several countries cuts are being stealthily applied by not replacing civil servants when they retire. Spain, for instance, has said that only 10% of those who retire will be replaced. An optimist might wonder if Europe is about to embrace structural reform by accident: after allowing public sectors to swell, the need for swift cuts is pushing them to slash the costs of the state. Alas, pessimists are entitled to some doubts. The 10% rule in Spain does not apply to areas like health, education or care for the elderly, and does not stop regional governments creating new posts.

    Moreover, powerful men like Mr Granados are oddly powerless when it comes to changing the status quo. Spanish public workers essentially cannot be sacked. Last week Madrid’s regional government announced it was scrapping 48 of its 125 official cars, and replacing the remaining Audi and Peugeot limousines with midsized models. “The paradox is, I can’t get rid of any of the official drivers,” sighs Mr Granados. He can try moving government drivers to new duties, but only with their consent (though he is laying off 23 drivers on temporary contracts).

    The minister cannot move an official from social services to the health department, or from a day to a night shift. Absenteeism rates average 18%, but little can be done about abuses: public workers can take three days off sick without medical proof. If he wants to recruit a star surgeon, the minister cannot offer a bonus. All surgeons must be paid the same rates—indeed, doctors’ salaries are tied to pay rates for all staff, including hospital cleaners. The conservative-led regional government might like to privatise some state enterprises, including Madrid’s two public television channels. But under collective agreements, workers laid off by new private owners would have to be taken back on to the public payroll. An army of 3,242 trade union representatives polices these agreements, their salaries paid by the Madrid region.

    Spain is often cited as the big EU economy most in need of labour-market reform. The central government has spent months agonising over changes to a law that makes it expensive for private firms to make full-time staff redundant. But in truth parts of Spain’s economy are very flexible: just ask the 1.5m people who have lost jobs since the boom stopped. The problem is that the labour market divides insiders from outsiders. Immigrants on temporary contracts have been hit hard, as have the young.
    Are you in or out?

    Will the economic crisis force change, or entrench privilege? So far lots of outsiders have responded by trying to become insiders. Applications for posts in Spain’s national police force have tripled since the crisis began. Some 300 people apply for each new clerical job advertised by the Madrid government, officials say, though the number of posts available has fallen sharply.

    At the Centro de Estudios Financieros (CEF), a private college in Madrid that prepares graduates for civil-service entrance exams, numbers are also up, despite fees of €2,000 ($2,450) a year. Most tutors at such colleges are themselves moonlighting civil servants: public-sector hours run from eight till three, giving bureaucrats ample time to pursue second careers.

    Free time and the guarantee of a job for life matter more than pay cuts, declares Almudena Gonzalez Menéndez, a CEF student who has just passed exams to become an employment-ministry inspector. She told, appalled, of friends telephoned in the evening by their private employers with work requests. As an official, she enthused: “you have your life to yourself”.

    Yet some austerity measures could prove surprisingly effective, notably the non-replacement of retiring staff. Europe’s civil services are greying fast: in lots of countries, including Spain, 30% of staff will retire in the next 15 years. That sets the scene for big changes, if politicians dare.

    More politically, the economic pain in Europe is likely to get worse. Not all public servants are privileged: some teachers in Romania earn €250 a month, so a 25% cut would be brutal. But in places like Spain, an unsackable bureaucracy now co-exists with 40% youth unemployment. That is a recipe for reform or revolt. Half measures will not do the trick.


    ********************************************

    Yeah I like that line.

    But in places like Spain, an unsackable bureaucracy now co-exists with 40% youth unemployment.

    Pathetic. When a company no longer needs a service, why can't they fire someone? Seems common sense eh? OK so maybe you don't want to just allow them to be fired (God knows why, a flexible economy is a healthy economy) so at least move them to a different area. Oops can't do that either!

    America should take what is going on in Europe as a wake up call. Cut government. Stop racking up the debt. Destroy the government unions. If you work for the government you should not have better benefits then the private sector because the private sector is who writes your pay check! If you aren't doing a good job but are still being paid well in benefits or income then you are a societal leech and little better then a thief.

  2. #2
    .... economics 101. When one part of the labor market is rigid, the other part will have an incredible imbalance of supply and demand, leading to inefficiencies in both markets and (economics 102) a deterioration in the economy. (as the unemployed produce very little)

  3. #3
    Apparently there is not enough money to go around. Somebody miscalculated what the private sector is capable of.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Apparently there is not enough money to go around. Somebody miscalculated what the private sector is capable of.
    LOL no.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    LOL no.
    So the private sector is just underperforming?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    America should take what is going on in Europe as a wake up call.
    Spain is not Europe Shitforbrains.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
    Spain is not Europe Shitforbrains.
    Please, like that's even noticeable compared to the rest of his drivel? Once again he's conflating things like it was the Big Crunch, and proceeds to make inane conclusions about things just so he can "hnurh hnurh hnurh gubment bad, moar bootstraps". The cadaver wankfest threads are more entertaining than this.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  8. #8
    You may think of Spain as your swarthy southern third cousin, but he is right that the Western European youth unemployment issue is real. And a lot of it does have to do with labor laws and how state employees are compensated.

    It's not the existence of government services as much as they are inefficient and impossible to shrink with reality.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    It's not the existence of government services as much as they are inefficient and impossible to shrink with reality.
    All of them, everywhere, at all times

    Plus efficient /= effective, etc etc

    lol
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    You may think of Spain as your swarthy southern third cousin, but he is right that the Western European youth unemployment issue is real. And a lot of it does have to do with labor laws and how state employees are compensated.
    Can you back this up with numbers?

    For instance, since mesa Dutch, how do youth unemployment percentages of the Netherlands compare to America? I only have heard of total unemployment numbers and if I remember correctly they be quite low relative to the rest of Europe and America.

    (But I might very well be mistaken)

    edit: And to react on your third cousin statement, the article clearly has a point to make it I wouldn't be surprised it focussed on the least flowery looking country to make that point. I am quite uncertain you can look at one country and extrapolate the situation from that country as being representative of Europe.

    Just this makes me suspicious of the point the article and Shitforbrains try to make.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  11. #11
    Oh hello, what is this?

    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/busines...qsXMuIlGONNX1K

    The number of young Americans without a job has exploded to 53.4 percent — a post-World War II high, according to the Labor Dept. — meaning millions of Americans are staring at the likelihood that their lifetime earning potential will be diminished and, combined with the predicted slow economic recovery, their transition into productive members of society could be put on hold for an extended period of time.
    The number represents the flip-side to the Labor Dept.'s report that the employment rate of 16-to-24 year olds has eroded to 46.6 percent -- the lowest ratio of working young Americans in that age group, including all but those in the military, since WWII.
    From 2009 though ... but that can't be right ... can it?

    http://www.bls.gov/news.release/youth.nr0.htm
    EMPLOYMENT AND UNEMPLOYMENT AMONG YOUTH--SUMMER 2009

    From April to July 2009, the number of employed youth 16 to 24 years old
    increased by 1.6 million to 19.3 million, the Bureau of Labor Statistics of
    the U.S. Department of Labor reported today. This year, however, the pro-
    portion of young people who were employed in July was 51.4 percent, the
    lowest July rate on record for the series, which began in 1948. (July is
    the traditional summertime peak for youth employment.) Unemployment among
    youth increased by 1.1 million between April and July 2009, about the same
    as in the summer of 2008. (Because this analysis focuses on the seasonal
    changes in youth employment and unemployment that occur every spring and
    summer, the data are not seasonally adjusted.)
    What's up with this? What's the catch?
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  12. #12

  13. #13

  14. #14
    How were those "youth" unemployment figures calculated? Surely it couldn't have been from government unemployment checks...

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by agamemnus View Post
    How were those "youth" unemployment figures calculated? Surely it couldn't have been from government unemployment checks...
    All the official unemployment numbers I am familiar with come from surveys. I assume those youth figures are collected in a similar fashion.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  16. #16
    Didn't we have a thread a while ago about youth unemployement in Western Europe?

    The US has high youth unemployment now because we're in a recession, and because the Federal minimum wage has been increased during a recession.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    ... and because the Federal minimum wage has been increased during a recession.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  18. #18
    Every economics 101 student is inundated with data about how higher minimum wages increase youth unemployment. But I wouldn't expect a socialist to understand.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Every economics 101 student is inundated with data about how higher minimum wages increase youth unemployment. But I wouldn't expect a socialist to understand.
    Yeah, they obviously need to rewrite those text books to include fast food franchises and such. The reality is that all of that trivial increase has virtualy no effect on the number of jobs avaiable. People have stopped buying (recession) so there is not as much labor needed to satisfy demand.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  20. #20
    Who will employ someone if they cost more than the incremental revenue?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Who will employ someone if they cost more than the incremental revenue?
    What part of "not as much labor needed" didn't you understand? You could reduce minimum wage to what it was 20 years ago and the workers are still not necessary to meet demand. You going to hire somebody you don't need just because they are cheaper than yesterday?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    What part of "not as much labor needed" didn't you understand? You could reduce minimum wage to what it was 20 years ago and the workers are still not necessary to meet demand. You going to hire somebody you don't need just because they are cheaper than yesterday?
    It is not all or nothing. Decisions are made on the margins. Labor costs are very closely looked at in fast food. If minimum wage goes down that means people can be paid less. So if the price of labor decreases by 10% those companies who offer that very bottom wage can hire 10% more people for the same cost.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    It is not all or nothing. Decisions are made on the margins. Labor costs are very closely looked at in fast food. If minimum wage goes down that means people can be paid less. So if the price of labor decreases by 10% those companies who offer that very bottom wage can hire 10% more people for the same cost.
    Wrong, because training people does cost money.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Wrong, because training people does cost money.
    Well sure. So for every 14% it goes down they can hire 10% more... the point is that for those low wage jobs that a lot of young people work do get cut when minimum wage goes up. Too many variables to say the exact amount of course but it does have an impact.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    But I wouldn't expect a socialist to understand.
    And yet he protests when people point out his increasingly rabid right-wingism. *sigh*
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    What part of "not as much labor needed" didn't you understand? You could reduce minimum wage to what it was 20 years ago and the workers are still not necessary to meet demand. You going to hire somebody you don't need just because they are cheaper than yesterday?
    Actually, often you do hire someone if they are cheap. The labor market (and the economy) is not just a demand side thing. Ignoring the fact that folks need some kind of employment to spend some kind of money in the economy, an economy is a dynamic thing and you can't arbitrarily raise the costs of employing the cheapest workers.

    At any given time, there are businesses who are struggling with the amount of demand for their products/services. They might be struggling because they laid people off. They might be struggling because there is suddenly pent-up demand for their products after demand with south for a while. If you arbitrarily increase the mandatory cost of employing someone new to help handle that demand, you make it that much more unlikely they will hire someone and perhaps promote them over time (or hire even more people).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    And yet he protests when people point out his increasingly rabid right-wingism. *sigh*
    Yes, you know, me and my right-wing issues about gay rights and reducing unemployment among African-American youths. This isn't right-wingism. I want to reduce youth unemployment and give young people more opportunities.

    When you raise the minumum wage, you make it too expensive to hire a certain amount of teens. So their effective wage goes right to $0.00.

    One of the scholars who has done the most research in this area is a guy at UC Irvine. He literally wrote the book on minimum wages, comparing data across a lot of countries and times: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item...pe=2&tid=11659

    Worth skimming the preview available on that link. Anyway, we introduced a steep minimum wage hike in 2009 and, right on cue, about 300,000 teen jobs disappeared within a few months. This was after the financial panic mind you. I don't think it's a right-wing thing to want a labor force flexible enough to give opportunities for growth to teenagers who are willing to work.

  27. #27
    But minimum wage has all sorts of exemptions, depending on the state. Farm workers and food workers especially. Ask anyone who waits tables or picks produce. They supposedly get tips or a % of bounty to add to their income. Both depend on others tho, like food quality (server has no control over that, let alone how it's cooked) and production (field worker can't control seed choice, irrigation or fertilizers).

    Basically, the shit jobs at the bottom of the food chain don't carry much power. Too many people in supply, too much desperation to exploit. Hell, we have people hopping borders to work these crap jobs, and employers are happy to oblige.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Yes, you know, me and my right-wing issues about gay rights and reducing unemployment among African-American youths. This isn't right-wingism. I want to reduce youth unemployment and give young people more opportunities.

    When you raise the minumum wage, you make it too expensive to hire a certain amount of teens. So their effective wage goes right to $0.00.

    One of the scholars who has done the most research in this area is a guy at UC Irvine. He literally wrote the book on minimum wages, comparing data across a lot of countries and times: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item...pe=2&tid=11659

    Worth skimming the preview available on that link. Anyway, we introduced a steep minimum wage hike in 2009 and, right on cue, about 300,000 teen jobs disappeared within a few months. This was after the financial panic mind you. I don't think it's a right-wing thing to want a labor force flexible enough to give opportunities for growth to teenagers who are willing to work.
    I was referring to you using "socialist" as a swear

    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  29. #29
    The minimum wage is very low. It's there to prevent people from being taken advantage of; if you lower the minimum wage, the people who take those jobs would need more government assistance.

    Theoretically speaking a lower minimum wage helps the profits of those companies who utilize such workers and lowers the prices for the goods they make.

    Q: How does the existence of cheaper fast food help the economy? A: It doesn't. In fact, you might even argue that it worsens the economy because people get fat and then the government takes care of the resulting health issues.

    Basically then, lowering the minimum wage would increase the profits of fast food companies.

    It would have a small effect on illegals, though: there would be a smidgeon fewer. Illegals don't even get paid that much and are operating under harsh conditions (though they like it? -- I saw one illegal clean the dirt off his sneaker with a leaf blower, and he wasn't wearing any ear protection) If the minimum wage was lowered, there would be less of an incentive to hire illegals (e.g.: for landscaping or lawn maintenance jobs).

    It's not a problem with the minimum wage, but instead a problem with unions.

  30. #30

    The minimum wage is very low. It's there to prevent people from being taken advantage of; if you lower the minimum wage, the people who take those jobs would need more government assistance.
    Most people in minimum wage jobs work there as a part time job. Teenagers, college kids making extra money ect. If you are a grown adult and still only making minimum wage as your full time job you just aren't trying or have some sort of mental deficiency or drug dependence. Heck when I was a teenager I worked fast food and everyone in the store made more then minimum wage.

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