He's becoming more innocent by the day: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/07...p-jan-6-letter
He's becoming more innocent by the day: https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/07...p-jan-6-letter
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
I've heard people say there's no way to incarcerate a former president - like, in a prison? Really? Would he keep his mouth shut, you know, about the stuff he so far hasn't? Would the Secret Service be his guards? Wondering, house arrest? Or opposite - super max for his safety and America's safety?
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
Where's our resident Fascist been? (Lewk, not beloved Nessie) I know Trump's not accused of stealing toothpaste, but this is still a "fry 'em" case, isn't it? I mean, a coup attempt, stealing and sharing and lying about having ultra secret defense documents? (Lock her up, lock her up, right?) That's gotta rate the death penalty, right Lewk? Or, allow me to guess, this is the "weaponization of the US Justice System against an innocent man for political purposes...?" Uh huh.
The Rules
Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)
And where did I say that? AFAIK the only thing I have repeatedly said that it's stupid to look for a conviction on charges that don't convince. Even if he's found guilty.Originally Posted by Loki
It literally gives the world the message that it's OK to try to overthrow the system of government in the USA, as long as you kept your documents in the right stack.
Last edited by Hazir; 07-19-2023 at 08:57 AM.
Congratulations America
And I'm pretty sure that prosecutors know far more about their ability to convict Trump than you or I.
Hope is the denial of reality
I'm not so certain about that. Just because he did choose to go for a grand jury. Prosecutors use grand juries to insulate themselves. Traditionally it's to avoid prosecution when utilizing discretion will be unpopular (i.e. when charging law enforcement) but it will also be used to say "it wasn't my idea to prosecute" when there IS heavy pressure for charges and they want to get points from it, but they don't really thing they can get a conviction.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Wonderful how you aren't able to react to what I actually write, because it interferes what you see as the desired outcome of the spurious case. You think everything is hunky-dory if Trump goes to prison for lacking archiving skills. I think that could very well mean the beginning of the end for the entire system of government in the USA.
Because it gives a message that says: after you give up power peacefully we'll find something, anything to come after you. Roughly the reason why dictators elsewhere never know how to step down.
Congratulations America
There are literally people serving years in prison for mishandling a far smaller number of less important documents and doing far less to to prevent them from being reclaimed by the government.
Hope is the denial of reality
These people were not at the same time former President, Presidential candidate and de facto leader of one of the main parties. At a time where that party has no inclination to sacrifice that person for a higher principle. Trump is no Nixon, no amount of mud Liberals can throw at him will convince his supporters that what Liberals are engaging in isn't dirty politics by other means. The fact that the DoJ is the stick used doesn't matter.
The bubble you are part of, is great at feeling better than the rednecks, hill billies and Bible thumpers, but you are not so good at understanding what moves them. That explains why you didn't see Trump 1 coming. What's sad is that you haven't learned from your mistakes. Get out some time. And talk with people that have opinions that make you want to jump from a bridge. You may learn something useful.
Congratulations America
Loki most definitely saw Trump 1 coming.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Good for him. But his class was shedding tears from the shock of that man having been elected the first time round. I dread the day we will look back in nostalgia on those days.
Congratulations America
What moves them is causing harm to everyone different to them. Which minority group would you say is acceptable to destroy today to get them to wait another few years before trying to implement their brand of fascism?
Hope is the denial of reality
If that is what you believe, they are closer to you than you are willing to admit. If it's true there is no hope for the USA.
Congratulations America
Can you give me a better explanation for why they love a New York billionaire who likely voted Democrat most of his life? He's not the most conservative (the opposite in fact). He's not the most competent (again, the opposite). He's not the most religious (the opposite). But he was the loudest and most obnoxious in going after just about every minority.
Hope is the denial of reality
No, I can't. I am not one of them. Have you considered asking one of them? They may have the answer.
Congratulations America
but doesn't history teach us that appeasing fascists makes them democratic rather than just increasing their appetite for tyranny
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Who's advocating appeasing fascists? Is appeasing the only interaction you think is available when you deal with people who are charmed by fascistoi ideologies? Have you ever considered that very often the solution for people whose outlook on life is based on othering people is to entice them in face to face interactions with people, so that denying their humanity becomes a bit more complicated?
I know, that also has a historical record of not being perfect. But if you assume people are uncapable of seeing others as human, then I suggest we simply nuke the whole place and let it to whatever rises after that.
Congratulations America
We also have polls showing us that the best predictor of people backing Trump in the 2016 primaries was hatred of immigrants and women (and this is among Republicans already).
Hope is the denial of reality
Good to know. Now, what you gonna do about it? Tell me how bad it is to be xenophobic and mysogynistic?
Congratulations America
There's nothing that could be done other than beating them in elections. There's a massive news/social media ecosystem that caters to these people. Republican politicians are too cowardly to challenge it. Things will only get worse for the foreseeable future. It's only a matter of time before they take control over all three branches.
Hope is the denial of reality
A growing body of evidence shows increasing intergroup contact can be an effective way to counter eg. racism, under some circumstances—eg. in schools, workplaces, etc. What you're going on about here doesn't have anything to do with such interventions/measures, and seems even less realistic in the context of US society and US politics.
Letting fascists get away with trying to subvert/destroy democratic institutions and norms only encourages them to step up their destructive activity—while simultaneously eroding the safeguards against such destruction. It's like laying out a welcome mat for cancer. If one wishes to be fatalistic about it, what you propose will lead to a swifter and more thorough collapse of democracy—whereas the alternative currently being pursued gives the US a fighting chance.
Republican—and Republican-leaning—politicians, thought-leaders and voters need to learn that fascism isn't a viable way forward. That requires a thorough repudiation of fascist politics—at every level, in every institution. Only then will they be able to dismount this crazed tiger.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
What you call unrealistic is what I call the only way out of the situation you are finding yourself in.
You can't fight fascism by shouting at its first victims, those victims being the people who fall for their lies. Discarding them as lost only cements the hold the rat catchers have over them and by extension over your institutions. Chipping away at fascist power goes one voter a time, unless you are willing to nuke the whole lot.
As for what you think Republicans have to learn; who do you think you are fooling. We can all see how fascism actually is a very viable option for them. So viable that even using the legal system against them, might not even be enough to keep them away from the levers of power.
Congratulations America
Hope is the denial of reality
You know, Loki, I've always felt that you're wrong on this. The vast majority of Trump voters are not people who are trying to implement fascism, or motivated explicitly by their racism (I think that by and large their racism was not directly causal). Most people just want to get along with their lives, and they're scared. Things are changing - not just the demographic makeup of America (which is barely visible for a lot of more segregated voters), but also the underpinning of our economy and America's place in the world. Dealing with change is hard and scary, and for a certain class of voter they'll listen to the person who tells you lies about a fictional America that never existed, and who gives you someone to blame. Outside of your hard core Trumpists, I think people just genuinely either don't trust Biden/Democrats/etc. or are willing to believe that Trump is better than the alternative. They see decades of policies that (they believe) haven't improved their lives, and are willing to throw a bombastic clown into the fray to try to shake things up. They listen to media that frames a narrative where their lives and livelihoods are under constant threat.
They're scared. And I think that it's not super helpful to call them racists or misogynists or idiots. Some of that may be true (though hardly only the province of Trump voters), but it's besides the point. Trump voters are a huge portion of the electorate, and treating them with empathy and compassion - even while repudiating much of Trump's vileness - is IMO essential. We're all in this together, trying to build a more perfect union, and as our fellow citizens we must find a way to reach them and engage with them.
That being said, I think Hazir's take on this whole thing is nuts. The rule of law has no exceptions, and plenty of countries have prosecuted former heads of state without falling into anarchy.
"When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)
Wig, these are people actively voting for the party that opposes every policy that would improve their lives. Republicans don't win elections by promising better pay, better Healthcare, better working conditions, cheaper childcare, etc. Their platform is consistently one of hate. Hate of gays, the trangender, African Americans, immigrants, the city folk, etc. There's overwhelming evidence that the main motivation for supporting the GOP is resentment against all those groups, and this resentment rarely has any basis in reality (these people truly believe that illegal immigrants are getting free housing, that African Americans are treated better than they are, that cities take money from rural areas, etc.). So no, I don't believe for a minute that most Republicans today - 91% of whom believe Trump did a good job - care more about their own well-being than they do about hurting groups they resent.
Look at GOP talking points. How many involve helping improve the lives of their supporters and how many are about Hunter Biden and drag shows.
Hope is the denial of reality
GOP talking points - Lower taxes, more money in your pocket. You get to keep your inalienable right to own firearms. You get to know that when a criminal robs you, they will actually go to prison and not get a slap on the wrist. Your business won't be in trouble based on how it heats its pizza. You will continue to be able to drive the car you like (gas powered!). GOP is also against racism via Affirmative Action. GOP is in favor of an originalist view of the constitution and the judges nominated reflect that. And yes, they are also opposed to *minors* having top and bottom surgery.
Republicans are the most notorious child-fuckers in the US you odious little tit.
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Loki, it doesn't matter what you think the proposed policies actually do and whether they help people. Very few voters make decisions out of entirely rational self interest. They make decisions based on how they feel about a candidate, and when they are scared of change and afraid their lives are getting worst, they'll go with the fear monger who gives them someone to blame. It's not pretty, it's not something I agree with, but it is something that can be empathized with and engaged with. These aren't unrepentant, irredeemable racists full of hatred against everyone else. They're scared, lost people who are grasping at a lifeline.
I continue to think that you see two kinds of Republicans - either the elites (those who haven't bailed in the Trump era) who are willing to countenance any sort of nonsense to get preferred policies enacted, or die hard Trumpists who are kowtowing to their basest urges under his expansion of the Overton window. I agree that both of these groups there's probably little hope for engaging with. But I also think there's a huge swath of Republicans who don't fit neatly into these categories, and who you ignore because you don't like the decisions they've made or the candidate they voted for.
This is not an argument to adopt Trumpist rhetoric or change proposed policy to be more 'moderate' - it's merely an argument that half of the United States electorate are not irredeemable monsters. I don't think this is an unreasonable position to take.
"When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)
This means that you don't understand what I am actually saying. I will try to explain it again.
Of the bat; I think there are good reasons why Trump should be prosecuted and I think such a prosecution legitimately could end in his incarceration.
What I don't think is that it is smart to do so on the basis of a law that from its inception has been used arbitrarily and also has proven to be an effective means of silencing dissenters. The law is bad, bad use of it makes things worse. Given that the application of the law has been arbitrary for as long as it has existed the claim that 'the law is the same for everyone, regardless of station' rings extremely hollow here.
What people who obsess over the letter of the law very easily forget is that the legal system is actually very fragile if not enough people believe in it any longer. And that's actually coming closer if you tell society at large that trying to interfere with the electoral process is less serious in the scheme of things than mis-filing some documents.
Congratulations America
You're ignoring the fact the fact that we have party primaries, GOP voters could choose to elect sane Republicans, but they consistently vote for extremists (or people pretending to be extremists). Can you please explain to me why in a crowded primary in 2016 with no incumbents, a vast majority supported Trump, Cruz, and Carson? Can you tell me how 91% support Trump's actions, even after he was convicted of sexual assault? Can you tell me why current GOP presidential candidates who voice typical Republican talking points but aren't going all in on election denial and hate mongering are polling in the single digits?
The reality is that a vast majority of Republican voters want Trump or someone like Trump. Policy has ceased to be relevant. There's certainly no serious argument that Trump has better character than the alternatives (including on the GOP side). Maybe these are good people in their normal lives, but they've also been programmed to hate and to support anyone who hates the loudest. You're not going to fix this as long as they continue to willingly be brainwashed into this hate-filled ideology. There's simply no evidence that "engagement" can reverse the brainwashing for a substantial number of these people.
Hope is the denial of reality
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