Richard Nixon

[Hazir]

Isn't it strange to conclude that if you want to put Nixon on the left right divide in the USA today with his actual policies when he was in office he'd probably wind up somewhere to the left of Biden?

Environment protection, consumer protection, disability benefits and a proposal for universal health insurance. Quite a list for a Republican President.

[Steely Glint]

He was before the massive rightward shift in economic policy precipitated by Ronald Reagan, cunt extraordinaire. The ruthless neo-liberal economic model advocated by modern conservatives and that centrists and centre-lefts will tell you are just a brute-fact about the world that can't be changed, only worked around, like gravity or electromagnetism, did not really exist in the post-war period, at least as a force in mainstream politics.

[Loki]

The GOP wasn't entirely beholden to the interests of a handful of activist billionaires back then. Nixon had to content himself with hating every minority group, spying on his political opponents, and undermining American diplomatic efforts (right before his election). Republicans were also more interest in maintaining public support (mostly through racism).

[Hazir]

What are you trying to say? Didn't minorities benefit from the first three? Wouldn't they have benefitted from a health care plan that would have gone significantly further than the affordable care act?
Usually people are better served by the guy who improves their lives, than the guy who tries to be their friend and does fuckall in reality.

[Loki]

A) Nixon replaced LBJ, who was far friendlier to workers and minorities.
B) It's hard to support a politician some of whose policies benefit you when they're simultaneously trying to disenfranchise you and enforcing segregation against you.

[LittleFuzzy]

You seem oddly obsessed with Tricky Dick, Hazir. Do you have his brain in a jar or something?

[Loki]

Maybe he's just a fan of Futurama.

[Hazir]

I do like Futurama, but what really baffles me how Americans demonize one of their best presidents ever.

[wiggin]

Perhaps it has something to do with destroying evidence pertinent to a critically important investigation of his lawless administration's actions?

[Loki]

Or undermining peace negotiations with Vietnam. Or presiding over the end of the gold standard. Or being petty, corrupt, and undemocratic. Or generally not being good at anything but diplomacy:

https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurv...?personid=3517

[wiggin]

I'm actually a fan of killing the bretton woods system.

[Loki]

There was probably a more gradual way of doing it.

[wiggin]

Sure, agreed, but there was going to be upheaval even at the *mention* of a change. It's not obvious that there is a functional difference to markets between saying you're going to get rid of exchange rate controls eventually and just doing it.

[Aimless]

can't believe y'all are taking this obv bait

[Hazir]

Perhaps it has something to do with destroying evidence pertinent to a critically important investigation of his lawless administration's actions?

Oh yeah, that's the go-to evidence for him being 'bad'. But he achieved a lot of policy goals that liberals hold dear today.

And as you pointed out, on top of that all; he killed Bretton Wood. And look at the boost that gave.

[Hazir]

can't believe y'all are taking this obv bait

Because it isn't a troll. I think forcing the resignation of Nixon was detrimental to the USA both short term and long term. Nixon was progressive more than most American presidents after him and his abdication poisoned the waters of democracy so completely that a toxic swamp remains today. A swamp in which only partisan enmity flowers.

As we can see with the example of Carter, a nice person isn't necessarily a good President. Or if that example is too ancient for you; look at what a waste of time the Obama administration turned out to be.

[Loki]

Because it isn't a troll. I think forcing the resignation of Nixon was detrimental to the USA both short term and long term. Nixon was progressive more than most American presidents after him and his abdication poisoned the waters of democracy so completely that a toxic swamp remains today. A swamp in which only partisan enmity flowers.

As we can see with the example of Carter, a nice person isn't necessarily a good President. Or if that example is too ancient for you; look at what a waste of time the Obama administration turned out to be.

Nixon was less progressive than both his predecessor and elected successor.

And I'm starting to understand your turn toward the right. You don't seem to think that democracy and rule of law are things worth protecting (i.e., by punishing politicians that seek to destroy them). Are you a fan of Erdogan now? Because I recall you being quite opposed to his autocratic policies even when Erdogan's economic policies were highly successful.

[Hazir]

What makes you think I made a turn to the right? Just because I think Liberals in the USA are blind to their own stupidity all of a sudden I support autocratic rule and lawlessness?

It's perfectly possible to think that Liberals in the USA are as useless as a fridge on the north pole used to be while also being abhorred by the likes of Donald Trump.

As for Erdoğan; there are some similarities between the USA and Turkey. The most visible one being that the opposition there is as useless as Liberals are in the US. The main difference between the two countries is that there the opposition decided to go full fascist and made the autocrat look like the safe pair of hands. It's quite something to see the 'nice alternative' to the autocrat promising to deport millions of people to a war zone and have his words plastered all over the country.

P. S. name one lasting thing of relevance the Carter administration did.

P.P.S.S. I'm not certain it helps your case for decency if you drag LBJ into the discussion.

[Loki]

LBJ did more for civil rights than any modern president. Nixon was the most racist modern president. LBJ did more for the welfare state than any president other than FDR. Nixon did whatever he thought would get him more votes. LBJ was trying to win in Vietnam. Nixon knew the war was a lost cause but expanded it anyway (because losing it would cost him votes).

[LittleFuzzy]

In other words, Nixon wasn't progressive at all. He just operated in a different national Overton window. Context shapes policies. National figures have a bit of leverage to shape contexts in return as well, particularly in more turbulent or stressed periods but often will not see the results in the period when they're still actively influencing. One might measure how great a president was by the long-term influence they had over the national political context. Nixon's influence was entirely bad there. Increasingly autocratic and centralized control, an obsession with revenge and taking out ones political opponents, winning at any cost. . . and his foreign policy successes, while useful, necessary, and important were not exactly tours de force in the long run either. He may have gone to China and helped end the Sino-Soviet alliance against the US but subsequent relations with China have never really improved beyond a hostility-tinged and suspicious neutrality and rivalry. Bretton Woods was poisoning us but ending it was a sharp shock and we remained with the mixed bag of benefits and penalties associated with being the central reserve currency. Great for the markets, Wall St., the banks, etc, not as good for the rest of us. One of the not-as-recognized factors behind the lack of real wage growth and the spike in asset and income disparity.

[Dreadnaught]

Isn't it strange to conclude that if you want to put Nixon on the left right divide in the USA today with his actual policies when he was in office he'd probably wind up somewhere to the left of Biden?

Environment protection, consumer protection, disability benefits and a proposal for universal health insurance. Quite a list for a Republican President.

I do like Futurama, but what really baffles me how Americans demonize one of their best presidents ever.

Nixon's ideological relationship to state power was different than our modern political spectrums. He was also mostly focused on undermining Communist countries.

[GGT]

Hazir, I don't understand how you can call Nixon "one of our greatest presidents" when he turned out to be a conniving criminal. You sound more like Roger Stone, who spent years grifting the GOP with influence peddling, wearing a Nixon tattoo on his back.

[Hazir]

Hazir, I don't understand how you can call Nixon "one of our greatest presidents" when he turned out to be a conniving criminal. You sound more like Roger Stone, who spent years grifting the GOP with influence peddling, wearing a Nixon tattoo on his back.

You Americans like to throw that word criminal around quite a lot don't you? Nixon a criminal, irregular asylum seekers are criminals, 18 year old boys with 17 year old girlfriends are criminals. It kinda takes the meaning out of the word.

As for Nixon, he achieved a lot both internationally as domestically. Things that had very positive effects on the wellbeing of the planet.

[Steely Glint]

Victimless crimes that people shouldn't get worked up about according to Hazir:

Crossing a boarder without the correct paperwork
Consensual sex between teenagers where one is underage
Breaking and Entering
Wiretapping
Kidnapping

[Hazir]

Because the culture wars that came out of that period really was worth it all right?

[Steely Glint]

Preferable to the mafia state you'd end up with if you left power in the hands of people like Nixon, yes.

[Loki]

Because the culture wars that came out of that period really was worth it all right?

Nixon was the one who developed the southern strategy (i.e., appeal to Southern Democrats with cultural issues/racism)...

[LittleFuzzy]

Because the culture wars that came out of that period really was worth it all right?

I don't think we'd have avoided those by keeping Nixon in office for the term. Ford would still have been in a good position to end up the GOP nominee and would still lose to Carter, perhaps even more heavily. The economic woes under Carter and which helped propel Reagan into office where he championed that culture war were a result of Nixon policies already enacted as well, so no reason to expect any changes there either.

[Nessus]

Nixon was the one who developed the southern strategy (i.e., appeal to Southern Democrats with cultural issues/racism)...

Sure, but who is to blame there? The god damned Kennedies, that's who.

Nixon was the last true statesman of the POTUSes. Ford? He was a man without a compass, plying for sympathy from his golf buddies saying he'd go to Hell for pardoning Richard. You did it, champ, it's your afterlife! LBJ, well, he was a foreign policy slot machine, who chose not to prosecute Nixon despite knowing Richard committed actionable treason because boys will be boys. Carter? He was a disaster as a manager and talking with the legislative branch. Reagan? Well, he was the Devil himself, brought to life by the industrial light and magic of General Electric itself. Bush I? Alphabet soup man, probably shot JFK himself. Which, come to think of it, should have earned him a Nobel peace prize. Clinton? Well, his trade deals speak for themselves, if he wasn't the magus behind Trump then Hillary can go gawk at another balloon drop. Bush the Second? Hmm, I wonder what the modern-day Low-key would think of his statesmanship. Obummer? Kept the forever wars going, wore a bad suit, liked some weird condiments.

Then there's Trump and the rocket-man, and Biden and Afghanistan. Looks like we're all out of statesmen, boys.

[Loki]

Nixon saw himself as an outsider because he was loathed, with good reason, by the elite. Being a statesmen implies not cursing every group under the sun on tape.