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Thread: What are you willing to give up in order to give up oil?

  1. #1
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Default What are you willing to give up in order to give up oil?

    This is one of those damned GGT threads.

    But it's more about finally creating a national energy policy that weighs all things, educates people, and makes some big demands.

    Fossil fuels, specifically petroleum products. Do you have any idea how many every-day ordinary products come from oil? Or the obscure products? From roadway asphalts to domestic plastics....petro products are everywhere.

    It's almost like asking everyone to be an environmental vegan who shuns ANY AND ALL animal products, only for petrol products. Food, cosmetics, film, candies, clothing, toys, storage, auto components, boats, planes, baby diapers, cell phones and computers, the list is huge.

    I'd post a poll, but my polls suck. Besides, the intent is to get everyone to look around and figure out what they could do without, or find an alternative product for petrol products that dominate our lives.
    Then moving onward.

    One of the craziest things I've observed is the push for "Organic Food" that comes shrink wrapped or in styrofoam packaging, or the store has those plastic baggie dispensers. Same thing for "Natural Cosmetics" that comes in plastic tubes and bottles. Even sports drinks or Health Water that's in plastics. That's just stupid.

  2. #2
    Senior Member GGT's Avatar
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    Also, because it's late and who the fuck is around here anyway?

    At our food pantry today, I got to thinking about why everything comes in plastic bottles or aluminum cans, except grape jelly and tomato sauce that comes in glass jars. Obviously, it's a transportation issue. But no one could answer why jelly, sauce (and sometimes peanut butter) arrives just fine in glass jars. Right along the same imports in plastic. We don't lose any more juice in plastic than juice in jars......we may even be more careful if it's breakable.

    But everything is wrapped in plastic, the bulk boxes, even the shipping tape comes from petrol. It's done great things for us, but also horrible things.

    I have a memory of some 60's shows (probably Father Knows Best or one of those things) where homes didn't used to have shower heads in the bathtubs. Washing your hair meant using a glass Pyrex pour cup over the sink faucet, using a shampoo from a glass jar or metal tube, or just dunking in the tub. No hair dryers (I just washed my hair). I look at my bathroom today and its many products, and it's all encased or purposed in plastics. Even the toilet tank float. The kitchen is even more plastic oriented.....

    They try to make us feel better by saying plastic is recyclable, but not so sure that evens out. I can't really recycle my fridge.....


    oh yeah, and I still have an old rotary phone that must weigh five pounds. Rather hard to lose that kind of thing. There's plastic in the casing and cord (the curly kind) but at least it's also a weapon. I could bang someone on their head with this phone and take them down. Must be a joke here somewhere--don't move or I'll...hit your with my 2 ounce cell phone?
    Last edited by GGT; 06-16-2010 at 06:37 AM.

  3. #3
    Administrator Dreadnaught's Avatar
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    Requirements that food come in biodegradable packaging and gas taxes are probably pretty reasonable starts. As for what I'm willing to give up, well that's a tough question I think.

    I honestly think it's better to think in terms of the largest areas of fossil fuel consumption (instead of "giving up" things), mainly power generation and transportation. I think they are "big" issues but they are also somewhat low hanging fruit in that the nodes of impact are fewer in number than trying to get everyone in America to stop buying plastic milk jugs.

  4. #4
    SEÑOR Member Aimless's Avatar
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    I hate cars and would be fine without them. I'd like my buses to run without petrol, but I don't want them to be made of glass

    I can go out of my way to recycle plastic, so I can give up the convenience of just dumping everything in one bin. And I have
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    Democrats.

  6. #6
    http://www.good.is/post/transparency...hore-drilling/

    See the figure on the right: 71% of our oil consumption is tied to transportation. There's not much you can do about trucks and airplanes right now, but automobiles are a huge chunk of that which could be immediately phased out; the technology is largely there, albeit somewhat more expensive. As it is, it's largely criminal that we're just burning up most of our oil. (BTW, Dread, much as I agree we shouldn't be generating power from oil, it's a very small proportion of overall consumption.)

    On the other hand, plastics are incredibly useful materials (I mean revolutionary) that are really indispensible (the reason we use glass instead of plastic for some containers is due to interactions between the plastic and the contents, or mechanics issues). Better yet, most of them can be easily recycled. The solution to plastics problems is to rely on aggressive recycling to keep our new oil use down, and rely on bioplastics for the cheap/crappy plastics we use every day (e.g. plates and cups and stuff). That would dramatically reduce our new oil use from plastics.

    *shrugs* I don't think we need to completely cut oil out of our 'diet', it's a very useful resource to have and use. I think we should instead identify areas of waste (notably transportation) and eliminate it as much as possible. It's likely that complete replacements for oil are a very long way away, but we could easily halve US consumption with fairly small changes and existing technology.

  7. #7
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    I don't believe we have to give up anything. That's not to say there won't be a boat-load of change, but there's no real reason we have dismantle our lifestyle. There's other reasons for that
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    I think everybody could do a lot. I already:
    1) Drive very fuel efficient cars (we'd only have one if not for my health problems, and before I used almost exclusively bike)
    2) Set thermostat low in winter and high in summer
    3) Don't have more home than we need.
    4) Have a commute of less than 5 miles (I'd be biking if not CFS, and bussing if not immune suppressed--I did mostly bus until kidney failure/gout)
    5) Obsessively reduce/reuse/recycle
    6) Turn lights off/don't keep yard lights on all night (I hate that!)
    7) Cook paying attention tot he weather (ie don't bake something for hours in the middle of summer)
    8) Use compact fluorescent bulbs
    9) Lead recycling efforts at work.
    10) Limit car trips by combining
    11) Not have any kids (most important and not intentional. But we would have only had one anyway, if we had had any.)


    Me, I think than any product you use should have the entire cost contained in it. So, we should pay fees for packaging and shipping.

  9. #9
    I don't run the heater except for 1 week out of the year to clear the dust out, and the AC is set to 80F in the summer. Also ride the bus for my 20 mile round trip to work, I serious deserve a metal or something for putting up with that.

    I wouldn't mind giving up a little bit of yard and roof space for solar panels and wind turbines. Good luck getting the "OMGWTFBBQ!!" HOAs to agree to that.

  10. #10
    . Being's Avatar
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    I'll give up S. California and Texas. Oh, and how much oil does NASCAR consume? I'll give that up too.

    Mostly though, I'm with Wiggin on the conversion of personal transport.
    .

  11. #11
    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    Transportation of goods is a bigger drain than transporting people, at least one'd hope so, I know urban sprawl is retarded in the US though
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  12. #12
    . Being's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Transportation of goods is a bigger drain than transporting people, at least one'd hope so, I know urban sprawl is retarded in the US though
    Yes, in the U.S. personal transport costs (in oil) rival that of transporting goods.




    http://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/e...nsumption.html
    Last edited by Being; 06-16-2010 at 08:05 PM.
    .

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I know urban sprawl is retarded in the US though
    Finland:
    Total Population (2010 Estimated) - 5,359,538
    Area - 130,596 sq mi

    Long Island:
    Total Population (2006) - 7,559,372
    Area - 1,401 sq mi


  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Finland:
    Total Population (2010 Estimated) - 5,359,538
    Area - 130,596 sq mi

    Long Island:
    Total Population (2006) - 7,559,372
    Area - 1,401 sq mi

    I'm sure you can find a village in Finland with at least the same population density as Long Island.
    .

  15. #15
    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    I found a similar graph but a bit older, Being



    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Finland:
    Total Population (2010 Estimated) - 5,359,538
    Area - 130,596 sq mi

    Long Island:
    Total Population (2006) - 7,559,372
    Area - 1,401 sq mi

    I don't think you understood what I was saying. Urban sprawl means that while you're living inside the same city you have to drive around a lot because there's fuck-all city planning. Do you seriously think people commute from Rovaniemi to Helsinki?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Transportation of goods is a bigger drain than transporting people, at least one'd hope so, I know urban sprawl is retarded in the US though
    You have no idea. Really. Everybody wants a white picket fence and a two car garage, and some of them are willing to drive 3 hours a day to have it. Which in turns causes all of the amenities to also relocate 90 miles from the city. It's appalling. There are cities the size of visible lunar craters. And then you add in that many people drive cars the size of Panzer tanks, and have a couple of thousand square feet of house per family member. The American dream, unfortunately, is predicated on infinite resources.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I don't think you understood what I was saying. Urban sprawl means that while you're living inside the same city you have to drive around a lot because there's fuck-all city planning. Do you seriously think people commute from Rovaniemi to Helsinki?
    Oh, I took it to mean similar to what Tear did...

    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    You have no idea. Really. Everybody wants a white picket fence and a two car garage, and some of them are willing to drive 3 hours a day to have it. Which in turns causes all of the amenities to also relocate 90 miles from the city. It's appalling. There are cities the size of visible lunar craters. And then you add in that many people drive cars the size of Panzer tanks, and have a couple of thousand square feet of house per family member. The American dream, unfortunately, is predicated on infinite resources.
    ...in that as an example of urban sprawl, Long Island has a much higher population density than Finland, a lot less area in which to cram actual roads, and a lot more cars on the road. The nightmare only gets worse as time wears on, more land is developed, and more people move here, and more cars are added. There is also the fact that most of Long Island lives within commuting distance of New York City. In addition, regardless of whether or not Robert Moses was or was not a racist, the existing architecture of LI's roadways, bridges, etc. are ill equipped to handle much more mass transit. The LIRR also does not serve everywhere, and has limited expansion abilities...and you'd still need a car or some other form of transportation to get to the stations.

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    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    I think everybody could do a lot. I already:
    1) Drive very fuel efficient cars (we'd only have one if not for my health problems, and before I used almost exclusively bike)
    2) Set thermostat low in winter and high in summer
    3) Don't have more home than we need.
    4) Have a commute of less than 5 miles (I'd be biking if not CFS, and bussing if not immune suppressed--I did mostly bus until kidney failure/gout)
    5) Obsessively reduce/reuse/recycle
    6) Turn lights off/don't keep yard lights on all night (I hate that!)
    7) Cook paying attention tot he weather (ie don't bake something for hours in the middle of summer)
    8) Use compact fluorescent bulbs
    9) Lead recycling efforts at work.
    10) Limit car trips by combining
    11) Not have any kids (most important and not intentional. But we would have only had one anyway, if we had had any.)


    Me, I think than any product you use should have the entire cost contained in it. So, we should pay fees for packaging and shipping.
    I don't get #7. First of all, you'd use less gas heating up an oven in summer, right? Second, cooking only uses a tiny fraction of our gas consumption in our house, the vast majority of it is heating and showers. Showering shorter would be a better idea..

    Urban planning probably helps a lot too, over here a lot of people can, and do, go to work on a bicycle. Of course, they are somewhat forced too since they limited the number of parking places.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  19. #19
    queen of the universe littlelolligagged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I don't get #7. First of all, you'd use less gas heating up an oven in summer, right? Second, cooking only uses a tiny fraction of our gas consumption in our house, the vast majority of it is heating and showers. Showering shorter would be a better idea..

    Urban planning probably helps a lot too, over here a lot of people can, and do, go to work on a bicycle. Of course, they are somewhat forced too since they limited the number of parking places.
    The oven heats up the house, therefore requiring more cooling.

    Even my quite-well insulated oven does to some extent; my older bottom-rung one that was in the house when we moved in was ridiculous.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Flixy's Avatar
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    Oh right, I forgot you all use AC. We just open a window here, so it's not a problem.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Oh right, I forgot you all use AC. We just open a window here, so it's not a problem.
    I don't use AC and I also don't open the windows until around 10 PM. I make sure to close them again soon after the sun comes up.
    .

  22. #22
    queen of the universe littlelolligagged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    Oh right, I forgot you all use AC. We just open a window here, so it's not a problem.
    We also get slightly warmer than you. And stay that way longer.

    That's here in the great state of Georgia. Also Florida, where OG is.

    When I have been in the North AC wasn't necessary at all.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  23. #23
    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Oh, I took it to mean similar to what Tear did...



    ...in that as an example of urban sprawl, Long Island has a much higher population density than Finland, a lot less area in which to cram actual roads, and a lot more cars on the road. The nightmare only gets worse as time wears on, more land is developed, and more people move here, and more cars are added. There is also the fact that most of Long Island lives within commuting distance of New York City. In addition, regardless of whether or not Robert Moses was or was not a racist, the existing architecture of LI's roadways, bridges, etc. are ill equipped to handle much more mass transit. The LIRR also does not serve everywhere, and has limited expansion abilities...and you'd still need a car or some other form of transportation to get to the stations.
    That's...Still not the same thing I and ']['ear were posting about. Although the end result is the same whether you have a lot of cars crammed into little space, making gods-awful traffic, or endless plains of suburbia where everyone drives 30 minutes to get anywhere, you're draining oil out the ass for no goddamn reason.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  24. #24
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    <snip> you're draining oil out the ass for no goddamn reason.
    #1. You for got the S. Consistency at least, please. Thank you.

    #2. No reason? Seriously? SERIOUSLY????
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  25. #25
    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    #1. You for got the S. Consistency at least, please. Thank you.
    Fuck you
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    #2. No reason? Seriously? SERIOUSLY????
    Yeah.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  26. #26
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Fuck you


    Yeah.
    Step number 1, right or wrong, is consistency. If you're not consistent, then you might as well be insane. It's CHAOS I TELL YOU! Fix that first you fucking monkey bitch.

    Also, no drop of oil's ever been burnt to a good purpose. Shit head. Or do you have some good purpose out there you can cite? Pshaw.
    The Rules
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  27. #27
    Nihilist Nessus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Step number 1, right or wrong, is consistency. If you're not consistent, then you might as well be insane. It's CHAOS I TELL YOU! Fix that first you fucking monkey bitch.
    Fuck you

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Also, no drop of oil's ever been burnt to a good purpose. Shit head. Or do you have some good purpose out there you can cite? Pshaw.
    As I have indicated in previous discussions on this topic, I am with the wiggin; oil should be used to create materials. It is hardly my fault you chose to read things into my posts that were not there. Also, fuck you.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  28. #28
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Fuck you



    As I have indicated in previous discussions on this topic, I am with the wiggin; oil should be used to create materials. It is hardly my fault you chose to read things into my posts that were not there. Also, fuck you.
    Good. That's better.
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  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Note two trends here
    1) grey bars: the intentional fall of rail, and the concomitant rise of tractor trailors.
    2) green bars: a loophole created by the government under strong pressure (read: donations) from Detroit. Allow SUVs, which are essentially passenger vehicles, to be rated as trucks. That way they avoid our mileage regulations, which are ridiculously weak anyway. Oh, and dumbasses to buy them and then rationalize it as if it were for safety. Even now only the largest SUVs provide a safety margin, and that is a relatively recent development. The early SUVs that drove the boom were all much less safe than any other class than pickups. But at least pickups were mostly working vehicles.


    So basically this whole trend is created by industry pressure of one sort or another. That combined with the lack of spine to raise taxes on transportation fuel gives you the US profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    ...in that as an example of urban sprawl, Long Island has a much higher population density than Finland, a lot less area in which to cram actual roads, and a lot more cars on the road. The nightmare only gets worse as time wears on, more land is developed, and more people move here, and more cars are added. There is also the fact that most of Long Island lives within commuting distance of New York City. In addition, regardless of whether or not Robert Moses was or was not a racist, the existing architecture of LI's roadways, bridges, etc. are ill equipped to handle much more mass transit. The LIRR also does not serve everywhere, and has limited expansion abilities...and you'd still need a car or some other form of transportation to get to the stations.
    Poor urban planning is not the same as sprawl. AFAIK Long Island is not as bad as many places. And many parts of NYC are actually the most environmentally efficient places in north America. Few of the people own cars and they live in hives where surface to volume ration is much lower, and thus much more energy efficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy View Post
    I don't get #7. First of all, you'd use less gas heating up an oven in summer, right? Second, cooking only uses a tiny fraction of our gas consumption in our house, the vast majority of it is heating and showers. Showering shorter would be a better idea..
    Most Euros have no idea how hot the US gets in the summer. We're much further south than you. And its not just the south. Working summers during college in Minnesota, I ran two fans over my bed and kept a mister by the bed to wet down a couple of times a night. Most sane people there have AC. It was only on the west coast that I encountered homes without AC (and now window screens, because few bugs.)


    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Step number 1, right or wrong, is consistency. If you're not consistent, then you might as well be insane.
    Like taking an environmental stance while living in a trophy house?

    Also, no drop of oil's ever been burnt to a good purpose. Shit head. Or do you have some good purpose out there you can cite? Pshaw.
    Oil is a fantastically versatile substance. Too bad we burn it all.

  30. #30
    That's no moon. EyeKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Like taking an environmental stance while living in a trophy house?
    Like continuing to be a judgemental, head-in-ass, holier than thou cock to others while whining all the time when Cain picks on you ad nauseum? Consistency is only the first step. Correction is the next.
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