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Thread: The Burqa and Niqab

  1. #1

    Default The Burqa and Niqab

    I find this an interesting topic of discussion. Anyone have any thoughts before I espouse my own views?

    COPENHAGEN: The face-covering burqa and niqab veils worn by some Muslim women have no place in Denmark, and the Government is considering restricting them, the Prime Minister has said.

    Lars Loekke Rasmussen stopped short of calling for a ban on the veils, noting ''legal and other limits''.

    ''The Government's position is clear: the burqa and the niqab have no place in Danish society. They symbolise a view of women and humanity that we totally oppose and that we want to combat in Danish society,'' Mr Rasmussen said.

    Denmark was ''an open, democratic society where we look at the person to whom we are talking, whether it's in a classroom or on the job. That is why we don't want to see this garment in Danish society.''

    This month, a draft French bill proposed fining Muslim women who wore the full veil up to €750 ($1165).

    Mr Rasmussen said his centre-right government was ''discussing ways of limiting the wearing'' of the veils without violating the constitution.

    His comments on Tuesday came a day after the publication of a report that found that the wearing of the burqa was ''extremely rare'' in Denmark, though no figures were given, and that the niqab was worn by ''between 100 and 200'' women. The report was commissioned by the Social Affairs Ministry and written by researchers at the University of Copenhagen.

    A heated debate on the burqa has divided the two-party coalition Government since the northern summer amid pressure from its key parliamentary ally the far-right Danish People's Party.

    About 100,000 Muslim women live in Denmark - 1.9 per cent of the population of 5.5 million. About 0.15 per cent of them wear the niqab, the report said.

    Denmark has had tense relations with the Muslim world since the publication of cartoons in 2005 depicting the prophet Muhammad was considered blasphemous and insulting by much of the Islamic world, triggering violent protests in Muslim countries.
    http://www.smh.com.au/world/denmark-loo ... -mltg.html

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    For me, I would treat a Burqa like I would treat a full facial tattoo. Feel free to have one, but don't expect to get a job as a teacher for instance.

    This month, a draft French bill proposed fining Muslim women who wore the full veil up to €750 ($1165).
    This is ludicrous. It means I can cut two holes in a bag, put it on my head and walk around in it all day long no problem, but a Muslim woman with a burqa would get a fine. If you're going to make a law, make it applicable to all, and not just Muslim women.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    It would make more sense if they said this was oppressive towards women, instead of justifying this based on their values of seeing faces.

    But I don't think bans like this are the way to go. You can't try and ban aspects of someone's culture unless it involves abuse, murder, torture, etc. I think one could possibly make a case on that point, but even that would be thin in Socialist Promiscuous Denmark.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
    For me, I would treat a Burqa like I would treat a full facial tattoo. Feel free to have one, but don't expect to get a job as a teacher for instance.



    This is ludicrous. It means I can cut two holes in a bag, put it on my head and walk around in it all day long no problem, but a Muslim woman with a burqa would get a fine. If you're going to make a law, make it applicable to all, and not just Muslim women.
    Actually the French proposal prohibits all types of face covering garments in public. So you with your bag would get a fine as well.
    Congratulations America

  5. #5

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    I see. The wording in the article threw me off.

    Obvious solution for Muslim women would be to only go out in public on a motorcycle.
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  6. #6

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    The trouble is that, despite their best attempts, this is clearly a populist and reactionary policy aimed at targeting a minority culture within a larger state and no amount of pretty words are going to change that.

    Democracy doesnt mean liberal, nor does it mean right.
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  7. #7

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    This 'policy' would never hold water in frigid places, where you have to cover all your skin so it doesn't freeze and fall off. Or in dusty places where wearing a bandana over nose and mouth makes sense.

  8. #8

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    I think its a mistake to get into banning aspects of culture that are not overtly harmful to people. Example, honor killing cannot be allowed under any circumstance and should be banned. But wearing certain kinds of clothes? Huh? This is just going to lead to more discontent and strife within France or wherever.

    On the other hand, social discourse in the US typically rests on being able to see someone's face. I've never walked into a Sub Way and encountered a burka clad woman working the counter. I can see not hiring people who refuse to show their face in public because of how off-puting the experience would be to customers. Fortunately, oppressive cultures like that don't let women work either, so its not apparently been an issue.
    The Rules
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  9. #9

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    I think someone has to explain to them that even if you force someone to stop doing something, it doesn't mean that they are going to stop believing in the ideas behind what they were doing.

    In this instance the behavior they are trying to stop is not harming anyone (potentially), and stopping it is not going to stop its practioners from believing that women wearing a burqa or niqab is appropriate attire.

    Sorry if this whole thing doesn't seem well though out but...FOR ALL THAT IS HOLY I CANNOT THINK WITH THAT FUCKING OPEN MOUTH CHEWING GOING ON. HENCE THE EDIT. AND NOW DRINK SLURPING! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!
    . . .

  10. #10

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Regulating people's choice of clothing: too far.
    When the sky above us fell
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  11. #11

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint
    Regulating people's choice of clothing: too far.
    I think very large women should be banned from spandex.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  12. #12

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    ''The Government's position is clear: the burqa and the niqab have no place in Danish society. They symbolise a view of women and humanity that we totally oppose and that we want to combat in Danish society,'' Mr Rasmussen said.
    I applaud mr. Rasmussen. This has little, after all, to do with the particular garment, and all to do with the disgusting, bestial values of Mohammedanism spreading into Europe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught
    It would make more sense if they said this was oppressive towards women, instead of justifying this based on their values of seeing faces.

    But I don't think bans like this are the way to go. You can't try and ban aspects of someone's culture unless it involves abuse, murder, torture, etc. I think one could possibly make a case on that point, but even that would be thin in Socialist Promiscuous Denmark.
    "Socialist Promiscuous"? You'd be more comfortable with this in "capitalist puritan Bolgoravia"?

    And what kind of gobbledygook is this, "you can't try so and so unless such and such", of course one can. I'm not even going to bother putting up related strawmen for you to attack because this post smacks of trolling.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  13. #13

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    If I did my math right, this is talk about one hundred fifty women. Big controversy over nothing, and clearly politically motivated. *shrugs*

    Ender
    "When I meet God, I am going to ask him two questions: Why relativity? And why turbulence? I really believe he will have an answer for the first." - Werner Heisenberg (maybe)

  14. #14

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus

    And what kind of gobbledygook is this, "you can't try so and so unless such and such", of course one can. I'm not even going to bother putting up related strawmen for you to attack because this post smacks of trolling.
    I think the implication was "You can't try that and still be a moral and just society." Or something like that.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  15. #15

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin
    If I did my math right, this is talk about one hundred fifty women. Big controversy over nothing, and clearly politically motivated. *shrugs*

    Ender
    Indeed. There are probably bigger fish to fry. How many minarets are there in Denmark?
    I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
    I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
    Which is what I am

    I aim at the stars
    But sometimes I hit London

  16. #16

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin
    If I did my math right, this is talk about one hundred fifty women. Big controversy over nothing, and clearly politically motivated. *shrugs*

    Ender
    Why does the number of people affected have anything to do with it? You ok with tyranny of the majority?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  17. #17

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    I applaud mr. Rasmussen. This has little, after all, to do with the particular garment, and all to do with the disgusting, bestial values of Mohammedanism spreading into Europe.
    So the solution to oppression is to ban a garment that the Danish government feels is symbolic of said religious oppression, and you applaud this action? Without forethought to how this will pan out in the future, or how this may affect other non-Islam worshiping people, or those who do not share Muslim societal values? Nor the absurdist statement it sends by attempting to equate restrictions with giving people freedom?
    . . .

  18. #18

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
    Indeed. There are probably bigger fish to fry. How many minarets are there in Denmark?
    The two largest minarets in North America are about a half mile from where I'm sitting. I'm terrified.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  19. #19

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions

    So the solution to oppression is to ban a garment that the Danish government feels is symbolic of said religious oppression, and you applaud this action? Without forethought to how this will pan out in the future, or how this may affect other non-Islam worshiping people, or those who do not share Muslim societal values? Nor the absurdist statement it sends by attempting to equate restrictions with giving people freedom?
    Freedom means different things to different people.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  20. #20

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    We had to burn the village to save it from the communists.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  21. #21

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    Freedom means different things to different people.
    I don't see how this negates my argument, and I've seen you use the same logic I've just used to argue against sex offender laws in the US. Except here you seem to be alright with "Think of Muslim Women!" where-as "Think of the Children!" doesn't seem to fly with you...

    . . .

  22. #22
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    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan
    I think its a mistake to get into banning aspects of culture that are not overtly harmful to people. Example, honor killing cannot be allowed under any circumstance and should be banned. But wearing certain kinds of clothes? Huh? This is just going to lead to more discontent and strife within France or wherever.

    On the other hand, social discourse in the US typically rests on being able to see someone's face. I've never walked into a Sub Way and encountered a burka clad woman working the counter. I can see not hiring people who refuse to show their face in public because of how off-puting the experience would be to customers. Fortunately, oppressive cultures like that don't let women work either, so its not apparently been an issue.
    You are forgetting that 'overtly harmful' is also culturally defined. In the French context (like in the Turkish context I might add) any expression of religion in public is suspect to start with and considered outright dangerous if it has a political component. Given the demographic of the wearers of these fully covering veils wearing them has a political component.

    That, more than anything else explains why the French are likely to decide to ban it. I doubt the Danes will be able to justify it within their own system of values.
    Congratulations America

  23. #23
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    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin
    If I did my math right, this is talk about one hundred fifty women. Big controversy over nothing, and clearly politically motivated. *shrugs*

    Ender
    According to the Economist it's even less than 50.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
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    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
    For me, I would treat a Burqa like I would treat a full facial tattoo. Feel free to have one, but don't expect to get a job as a teacher for instance.
    Agreed.
    Keep on keepin' the beat alive!

  25. #25
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    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Flixy
    Agreed.
    Actually recently a judge in Amsterdam went much further than that; he ruled that if religious garb and customs stand in the way of finding employment, then you aren't entitled to recieve unemployment benefits or welfare.
    Congratulations America

  26. #26

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions

    I don't see how this negates my argument, and I've seen you use the same logic I've just used to argue against sex offender laws in the US. Except here you seem to be alright with "Think of Muslim Women!" where-as "Think of the Children!" doesn't seem to fly with you...

    The Mohammedan women are already lost; I am concerned mostly with eradicating the filth of their moon-god from the good continent.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  27. #27

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Lost from what?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  28. #28

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    The Mohammedan women are already lost; I am concerned mostly with eradicating the filth of their moon-god from the good continent.
    So you're admitting this isn't a rational argument on your part, but instead an argument on the basis of "I don't like Group X, or how they behave, and what they believe" followed up with "The best way to stop a behavior I feel is egregious is to pass laws"?

    In addition, instead of accepting them into Western society and through exposure Westernizing them, the better approach is to make them pariahs, punish them, and then hope they accept Western ideals (unrealistic), or go away and never return (naive).

    I take it from your particular foul attitude toward religious people that this approach you advocate and applaud has worked particular well on you, since you're obviously a devout Christian, or are still an atheist who has never again attempted to verbally combat religious ideologies, or have stayed out of sight of the religious so that they no longer have a problem with you?

    To put it more succinctly, you're advocating treating religious people in a manner similar to how the religious have treated you, and are expecting a different outcome with them than their behavior has elicited from you.
    . . .

  29. #29

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions

    So you're admitting this isn't a rational argument on your part, but instead an argument on the basis of "I don't like Group X, or how they behave, and what they believe" followed up with "The best way to stop a behavior I feel is egregious is to pass laws"?

    In addition, instead of accepting them into Western society and through exposure Westernizing them, the better approach is to make them pariahs, punish them, and then hope they accept Western ideals (unrealistic), or go away and never return (naive).
    Admitting, am I? I am frankly not sure which of my 'arguments' you are even assaulting here since you're so busy shoving words and ideas into my mouth.

    Naive, huh

    Europe has a pretty long history of

    Wait, never mind

    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions
    I take it from your particular foul attitude toward religious people that this approach you advocate and applaud has worked particular well on you, since you're obviously a devout Christian, or are still an atheist who has never again attempted to verbally combat religious ideologies, or have stayed out of sight of the religious so that they no longer have a problem with you?
    I have no idea what is going on in this paragraph, maybe it's my deficiency in language skills
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  30. #30

    Default Re: The Burqa and Niqab

    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus
    Wait, never mind
    Do you drink coffee?
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

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