The Government Debt Train Nudges Closer To Collision

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

When people say that the reason we are running high deficits and "if we want it to work, it will work"...it becomes clear that they aren't paying attention to the details at all. They like the idea of free health care, without much of an idea of how it would play out. Or even what's in our bill. Or even the nature of our emerging debt crisis.

I mean, do folks need a pie chart or something?

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Same could have been said for the Bush years. They liked the idea of raising the deficit, and debt spending. Without addressing health care at all. Free wars, free Medicare part D prescriptions, where was their pie chart?

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Nothing is free. And providing health care to everyone at a reasonable cost while preserving innovation is not impossible.

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It's clearly not, we haven't been able to do it so far without incurring a 90 trillion future unfunded liability just for Medicare. Have you looked at this bill? Do you need a pie chart for our Medicare shortfall?

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Nobody is talking about free; the change is about ending the crazy situation that people enter health care at the point where it is least effective and most expensive because they don't have the money for cheap first line health care.

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Yes, which is why we need reform. This plan isn't reform, it's like a shopping binge in Best Buy on a credit card that's almost maxed out.

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Originally Posted by GGT

Same could have been said for the Bush years. They liked the idea of raising the deficit, and debt spending. Without addressing health care at all. Free wars, free Medicare part D prescriptions, where was their pie chart?

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Yes, they exacerbated budget failures. You really didn't think it could get worse, after the media was howling about the expanded deficits and how the Republican congress justified it because of wars.

Yet now we're a year and a half into one-party Democratic rule and the debt has piled up astronomically higher. The media doesn't howl as much, but the problem has gotten worse.

Do you need a pie chart?

I'm only asking why you reserved outrage for deficit spending NOW.....

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

It's clearly not, we haven't been able to do it so far without incurring a 90 trillion future unfunded liability just for Medicare. Have you looked at this bill? Do you need a pie chart for our Medicare shortfall?

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Lets have it. Make sure you put everything in the pie chart, like the waste and fraud in the current system. Include the new revenues from people who arn't paying into the system now. And the cost reductions in costs from people actually getting into preventative care programs rather than showing up at the emergency room when they can't stand the pain anymore. Why not work into there what the costs would be if we let our citizens buy drugs from Canada too rather than bending over and letting Big Parma have at us? Also, bump up the tax structure to pre-Bush numbers so we have a little more sensible revenue stream. Make it 3-D too. Thanks.

Didn't people used to make fun of Ross Perot and his infamous pie charts?

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Originally Posted by GGT

I'm only asking why you reserved outrage for deficit spending NOW.....

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I've always complained about this, for years and years. And now I'm complaining more as we consider embarking on more spending than the Iraq war.

Chaloobs- do you doubt that there is a debt problem? Look at the opening post. We're basically being threatened with a downgrade.

Going to buy some cheese and liquor.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

Going to buy some cheese and liquor.

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Turning into Timothy you are, young Jewdawan

So tomorrow basically the House is voting about the future of civilization?

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

I've always complained about this, for years and years. And now I'm complaining more as we consider embarking on more spending than the Iraq war.

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At least this time we'll get something for it instead of a new client state for Iran. :o

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Chaloobs- do you doubt that there is a debt problem? Look at the opening post. We're basically being threatened with a downgrade.

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Clearly spending and revenue are out of line. Part of that is the extraordinary circumstance of our terrible economic times. Part of it is our excessively light tax burden. Part of it is our extremely wasteful health care system. Lets fix it all. :up:

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Originally Posted by Nessus

Turning into Timothy you are, young Jewdawan

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Does he have a fur coat too?

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Originally Posted by Hazir

So tomorrow basically the House is voting about the future of civilization?

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As we know it.

So, the day is upon us. With 18 democrats being undecided and the bill being 9 votes away from passing if we can believe the NYT.

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Originally Posted by Nessus

Turning into Timothy you are, young Jewdawan

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Well, that was quite a 24 hours. :bulb:

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Clearly spending and revenue are out of line. Part of that is the extraordinary circumstance of our terrible economic times. Part of it is our excessively light tax burden. Part of it is our extremely wasteful health care system. Lets fix it all. :up:

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You haven't read the bill or looked into anything about our debt, have you? Yeah, a warm fuzzy entitlement sounds nice. Except we can't afford it.

One thing I think is neat is this "debt saturation" chart.

http://i42.tinypic.com/161j6fk.jpg

http://www.businessinsider.com/dimin...of-debt-2010-3

Basically, we've kept on borrowing and borrowing...but the net impact has become negligible partly because our income is becoming too small relative to debt. Of course the line will go up once the economy recovers, but the long term trend it clear. But hey, what's another trillion for warm fuzzies, right?

Sigh, somebody should really clean up the rulebook for the American Congress. The process is way too messy to make sense even if you try real hard to follow it.

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Originally Posted by Hazir

Sigh, somebody should really clean up the rulebook for the American Congress. The process is way too messy to make sense even if you try real hard to follow it.

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It is messy, that was my bitch about them making things more complicated than necessary.

Dread - that's not a pie chart. Where's my pie chart? You said you were going to post one. :mad:

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Dread - that's not a pie chart. Where's my pie chart? You said you were going to post one. :mad:

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Will you settle for a apple pie chart?



edit: Oooops, sorry. I forgot this is the serious place. Image deleted.

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Originally Posted by EyeKhan

Dread - that's not a pie chart. Where's my pie chart? You said you were going to post one. :mad:

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I asked if you needed a pie chart, not offered to make one. Everyone knows pie charts are the lowest form of chart.

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Originally Posted by Dreadnaught

I asked if you needed a pie chart, not offered to make one. Everyone knows pie charts are the lowest form of chart.

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I trusted you.