Gays, Hispanics, women (not really a minority I suppose), atheists/agnostics, and Muslims. If you want to use a broader definition of minority, then scientists, internationalists, and anyone who's not obsessed with never raising taxes or personally saving the "life" of every fetus.
Hope is the denial of reality
This is why they lost me. I've voted Republican in every election but this one (I didn't vote in 2010 because my kid was sick that day, bad excuse I know, but I would have voted R then too). I'd like to come back to the party, because I am a fiscal conservative. But their social positions were something I couldn't swallow. They've lost their small government status when they try to make federal laws restricting equal rights. Economic policies come and go, but making laws regarding social issues seem to take longer to reverse.Originally Posted by Veldan Rath
If you want to broaden the definition of minority then everyone is a minority.
Women is not minority - if they were then so would men and minority would lose all purpose as a word.
You seem to think that taxes (already too high in the modern world) and abortion are the only two issues for the GOP.
Second amendment (guns for those not versed in American politics)
Less regulation (sorry government - you don't get to change the temperature of my house!)
Less regulation (sorry government I can buy/sell any size soft drink!)
Less government take over (sorry government eminent domain for the purpose of a broader tax basis should be OK).
Secret ballots.
Protection against frivolous law suits.
Drilling.
National Defense.
Debt/Deficits (I am aware of the track record... but liberals hardly even pay lip service).
Putting and keeping violent thugs behind bars.
School vouchers.
Lots of issues that Republicans run.
In regards to other minorities - why would someone who is here legally and Hispanic not be in favor of ending discrimination? Wouldn't they be in favor of outlawing discriminatory practices in academia?
Muslims - not seeing the issue? Has the GOP put forth legislation to treat them like 2nd class citizens? Or are you suggesting that all Muslims dislike American foreign policy if it helps Israel? Cus that's pretty wrong.
Atheists/agnostics - meh. Republicans and Democrats are religious by and large. Republicans don't want to require religious base laws - they just don't think the 1st amendment means freedom from religion. To me only the folks with chips on their shoulders that cry about manger scenes and what not are impacted. I do see GOP as being in favor of more traditional values but there are plenty of libertarian non religious folks who side way more with Republicans then Democrats.
The fact that the GOP continues to piss off women, who are not a minority, is itself a signal of how unresponsive the party is to changing social norms. How is the GOP going to win elections when minorities make up a quarter of the voters (and rising)? Or when they lose the women vote by 10%?
And yes, the GOP stands for a lot of things, which is why it's stupid for it to piss off potential voters with some of its extremist stances.
A) Stop talking about contraception. Period. It's stupid and isn't a vote getter anywhere.
B) Stop emphasizing abortion (though it wouldn't hurt if the GOP accepted abortion in the first trimester). It's a net vote loser. It might get votes in the South, but the South is reliably Republican anyway.
C) Stop talking about gays. If the GOP wants to suck up to the traditionalist vote by maintaining its opposition to gay marriage, that's fine (from an electoral perspective). The problem is all the talk about gay agendas/conspiracies and homophobia in general. There are a lot of Americans who oppose gay marriage, but get turned off by bigotry.
D) Stop pandering to the lunatics with the opposition to Shari'a law in the US (a major threat to the US). Stop opposing the building of mosques; it's racist. Stop claiming the Palestinian people do not exist (even if the GOP supporters believe that) - all it does is piss people off.
E) Stop claiming that anyone who doesn't go to church is immoral/not American. The agnostic portion of the population is increasing, and there is absolutely no reason to piss off 10-20% of the population.
F) Stop taking a hardline on immigration reform. Regardless of the merits of the various proposals, taking an extreme position will have a devastating effect on the GOP's ability to win the Hispanic vote. You might think it's fair or unfair, but fairness isn't what gets parties elected. If the Republican leadership had a brain, they'd push for a partial amnesty (while forcing people to pay back-baxes) and force Obama and the Senate to accept or reject the proposal.
G) Stop being anti-science. It's damaging on many levels. First, anyone who cares about science is automatically being turned against the GOP. Even traditionally right-leaning professions/fields like economics and engineering are becoming Democratic due to the assault on science and science spending. And second, most people accept global warming and that percentage is increasing. The global warming denial does nothing but make the GOP look anachronistic, as well as pissing off environmentalists who in another era were reliable conservative voters.
H) Stop promoting an odd combination of isolationism and blindly antagonistic foreign policy. The GOP loses credibility when it refuses to have reasonable solutions to complex international problems. There's nothing wrong with talking to enemies or throwing them some carrots. You could always bomb them later.
I) Stop the obsession with no tax increases. High taxes are bad. Most people accept that. Cutting spending by $700 billion per year is just not feasible. By opposing all taxes, the GOP is supporting high deficits. Agree to a 25 (from taxes)/75 (from spending) split in cutting the deficit and most people will be happy.
J) Stop the obsession with ideological purity. No party is going to win 50% of the vote if it insists on booting out anyone who disagrees with any part of its platform. Allow for regional diversity. Don't try to force southern ideology on the rest of the country. What gets a Republican elected in Louisiana doesn't get a Republican elected in Indiana.
So yes, the GOP has plenty of policies that it should be lauded for, but they get drowned out by the idiocy mentioned above.
Hope is the denial of reality
2nd and 3rd generation descendants of immigrants still frequently identify/empathize with immigrants and immigration issues. And there are vocal populations within the GOP that are very effective at alienating anyone like that. For example, anyone ranting about government forms or publications being provided in Spanish. Not that you'd grasp that since you're one of 'em.
Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"
Loki, for the first time in a long while I don't think I have a single complaint about something you wrote. This is the Republican Party I would like to see. Now if we could just get GGT to write a similar post about the Democratic Party...The fact that the GOP continues to piss off women, who are not a minority, is itself a signal of how unresponsive the party is to changing social norms. How is the GOP going to win elections when minorities make up a quarter of the voters (and rising)? Or when they lose the women vote by 10%?
And yes, the GOP stands for a lot of things, which is why it's stupid for it to piss off potential voters with some of its extremist stances.
A) Stop talking about contraception. Period. It's stupid and isn't a vote getter anywhere.
B) Stop emphasizing abortion (though it wouldn't hurt if the GOP accepted abortion in the first trimester). It's a net vote loser. It might get votes in the South, but the South is reliably Republican anyway.
C) Stop talking about gays. If the GOP wants to suck up to the traditionalist vote by maintaining its opposition to gay marriage, that's fine (from an electoral perspective). The problem is all the talk about gay agendas/conspiracies and homophobia in general. There are a lot of Americans who oppose gay marriage, but get turned off by bigotry.
D) Stop pandering to the lunatics with the opposition to Shari'a law in the US (a major threat to the US
E) Stop claiming that anyone who doesn't go to church is immoral/not American. The agnostic portion of the population is increasing, and there is absolutely no reason to piss off 10-20% of the population.
F) Stop taking a hardline on immigration reform. Regardless of the merits of the various proposals, taking an extreme position will have a devastating effect on the GOP's ability to win the Hispanic vote. You might think it's fair or unfair, but fairness isn't what gets parties elected. If the Republican leadership had a brain, they'd push for a partial amnesty (while forcing people to pay back-baxes) and force Obama and the Senate to accept or reject the proposal.
G) Stop being anti-science. It's damaging on many levels. First, anyone who cares about science is automatically being turned against the GOP. Even traditionally right-leaning professions/fields like economics and engineering are becoming Democratic due to the assault on science and science spending. And second, most people accept global warming and that percentage is increasing. The global warming denial does nothing but make the GOP look anachronistic, as well as pissing off environmentalists who in another era were reliable conservative voters.
H) Stop promoting an odd combination of isolationism and blindly antagonistic foreign policy. The GOP loses credibility when it refuses to have reasonable solutions to complex international problems. There's nothing wrong with talking to enemies or throwing them some carrots. You could always bomb them later.
I) Stop the obsession with no tax increases. High taxes are bad. Most people accept that. Cutting spending by $700 billion per year is just not feasible. By opposing all taxes, the GOP is supporting high deficits. Agree to a 25 (from taxes)/75 (from spending) split in cutting the deficit and most people will be happy.
J) Stop the obsession with ideological purity. No party is going to win 50% of the vote if it insists on booting out anyone who disagrees with any part of its platform. Allow for regional diversity. Don't try to force southern ideology on the rest of the country. What gets a Republican elected in Louisiana doesn't get a Republican elected in Indiana.
So yes, the GOP has plenty of policies that it should be lauded for, but they get drowned out by the idiocy mentioned above.
A - What? All the GOP wants is to not to force business and religious institutions to do something they don't want to do. There are a tons of places to get contraception why the hell should something that is so readily available get special protection? If the church doesn't want to have a group insurance policy that covers birth control... so what?
B - You do know why the GOP dislikes abortion right? It has nothing to do with politics - it has everything to do with their view on life. If it hurts them electorally, fine. Sometimes principal should be stood up for.
C - Meh. I dislike the whole issue - government shouldn't weigh in on marriage at all. Wife/Husband should have no special tax advantages or disadvantages. So I'll give you that one.
D - Such a minor issue. Who is in favor of Shari'a law? Its a meaningless symbolic vote - one that nearly all Muslims living in this country wouldn't even have an issue with. As far as mosques that was just around ground zero and yeah that's retarded. But what's also retarded is calling that racist... Islam is not a race.
E - Again... what? I'm sure you can dig up some crazy nut railing about this in politics but no mainstream politician makes this an issue.
F - The last president who made a serious push for comprehensive immigration reform was Bush.
G - Anti-science? Don't be delusional. Climate change is by no means an exact science. The bias of some of the folks doing the research has now been well documented. The fact that only Republicans seem to care about intellectual property is telling when it comes to scientific innovation.
H - Neither party has been isolationist in a long long time. Republicans tend to be in favor of NATO. Republicans tend to be in favor of closer alliances with actual ideological allies. (Eastern Europe, Israel for example). And you're living in la la world if you think the first reaction the GOP has is to bomb shit. (I could only wish).
I - The historical record over the long turn is that taxes continue to go up and up and up. As moochers demand more and more resources from the collective politicians find ways to take it from the achievers. Putting your foot down on taxes will force cuts eventually. Its math. Give a bit on taxes... and it will be raised. 20 years late it will be raised again and then again and then again. I will say that not all tax increases would be bad - I'm a particular fan of making sure everyone pays a little something.
J - What? No one is forced out of the party. At best some moderates lose in the primaries against more conservative candidates. But the establishment almost always backs the incumbent. Unless you suggest not letting Republican voters vote in the primaries I don't see how you fix that... Republicans don't mandate ideological purity from their rank and file. As a party they tend to be more disciplined but this is a stretch.
I'm sorry Lewk, but I'm just not sure that's true. I know many Republicans who do want a religious baseline for laws.
Not learning English hurts far more immigrants then people not providing forms in multiple languages. Its beyond short sighted not to learn English in this country, its down right idiotic. Its also more of an out of the way gripe then a serious policy issue. As far as empathizing with illegals - I supposes that's a possibility but it would be a gigantic shot int he foot if Republicans supported amnesty. It encourages more illegal immigration and it gives Democrats even more voters.
I'm sure there are some but mainstream conservatives don't go around demanding that people follow the first 4 commandments. It just doesn't happen. Gambling, Prostitution and other "sin" laws tend to be supported by Democrats almost as much. I'm sure some libertarians are on the left but most of them are on the right because they understand economic freedoms tend to be the most pressing.
Women, gays, blacks, Hispanics, non-Christians.
You can't get a majority from white Anglo-Saxon Protestant males alone. And it's a shrinking portion of the electorate.
A: Why is this on the agenda? Why waste political capital on this? What's the effect other than pissing off moderate female voters?
B: One can support abortion without making it the centerpiece of most Republican campaigns. The pre-Reagan Republicans managed to do this just fine.
D: These issues explicitly target Muslims. The supporters of the measures know that, and the Muslims know that. Why give up on the Muslim vote just to pander to some lunatics (and these things are part of GOP platforms in at least several states)?
E: Yeah, the entire "war on religion/Christmas/Christians" that makes the headlines every year must be a figment of my imagination. As are the constant attempts to get the 10 commandments into courtrooms.
F: This is the kind of mentality that will lead the GOP to a path of destruction. You can cherry pick all the data you want. The Republican Party is incredibly hostile to immigration reform. The few Republicans who try to deal with the issue either get shouted down or ignored.
G: Yeah, it's not like Republicans regularly try to push the teaching of creationism/ID, or try to defund various sciences, or talk about conspiracies by the scientific community. It's telling that the Democratic get out the vote, fundraising, and political targeting methods are run almost entirely by trained statisticians, while the GOP is either unable or unwilling to do the same with its own election strategies.
H: The "stop giving foreign aid" line is mainly a Republican one. As is the obsession with how awful the UN is. On the flip side, any time a president talks to leaders of countries that are hostile to us, there are always Republican politicians waiting to attack him.
I:
J: DeMint has actively campaigned against GOP incumbents who weren't "conservative enough". Even ignoring DeMint, the GOP has refused to take a stand against Tea Party extremists. You can't all pretend to be Tea Partyers and then rail against the base when it forces moderate Republicans from office.
Hope is the denial of reality
@ I
Excellent post.
I could have had class. I could have been a contender.
I could have been somebody. Instead of a bum
Which is what I am
I aim at the stars
But sometimes I hit London
I think the Republican higher ups understand about the things Loki has spoken about, but does the base? If they're anything like the Tory party after '97 (admittedly this defeat was not anywhere as crushing as that one), they'll only (grudgingly) accept these kinds of changes to the party line only after they get sick of loosing. Which means we can look forward to a string of Democratic presidents for a while.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
The republican primary is heavily influenced by the batshit insane amongst that party's supporters. Its the only reason people like Bachmann and Cain got as much attention as they did. And in order for the less insane to stand a chance, they have to act just as insane, which sets them up for record breaking pants on fire remarks and flipflopping.
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Hey, I made the similar complaints in my thread about The Republican Party last year....and was promptly dismissed by Loki, et al.
I'm mostly an "issues poster", but the new post-Tea Party GOP became the place where the religious zealots, xenophobes, and crazies were hanging out.
At the same time they claimed to be the party of Liberty and Opportunity, and small or non-invasive government, groups like CPAC and Values Voters were redefining 'conservative' in religious (Christian) terms and first litmus test for their 'base'. HR 3....and more proposed legislation on women's bodies/BC/abortion than anything else. Their priorities in action, for everyone to see.
They think we're stupid. Or have Romnesia.
Maybe if the GOP changed some of its policies at the top, more moderates would become registered Republicans, and dilute the influence of the crazies. It also doesn't help that the higher ups have spent the last 3 years pandering to the crazy part of the base, which has given it disproportionate influence.
Hope is the denial of reality
What he said.The fact that the GOP continues to piss off women, who are not a minority, is itself a signal of how unresponsive the party is to changing social norms. How is the GOP going to win elections when minorities make up a quarter of the voters (and rising)? Or when they lose the women vote by 10%?
And yes, the GOP stands for a lot of things, which is why it's stupid for it to piss off potential voters with some of its extremist stances.
A) Stop talking about contraception. Period. It's stupid and isn't a vote getter anywhere.
B) Stop emphasizing abortion (though it wouldn't hurt if the GOP accepted abortion in the first trimester). It's a net vote loser. It might get votes in the South, but the South is reliably Republican anyway.
C) Stop talking about gays. If the GOP wants to suck up to the traditionalist vote by maintaining its opposition to gay marriage, that's fine (from an electoral perspective). The problem is all the talk about gay agendas/conspiracies and homophobia in general. There are a lot of Americans who oppose gay marriage, but get turned off by bigotry.
D) Stop pandering to the lunatics with the opposition to Shari'a law in the US (a major threat to the US
E) Stop claiming that anyone who doesn't go to church is immoral/not American. The agnostic portion of the population is increasing, and there is absolutely no reason to piss off 10-20% of the population.
F) Stop taking a hardline on immigration reform. Regardless of the merits of the various proposals, taking an extreme position will have a devastating effect on the GOP's ability to win the Hispanic vote. You might think it's fair or unfair, but fairness isn't what gets parties elected. If the Republican leadership had a brain, they'd push for a partial amnesty (while forcing people to pay back-baxes) and force Obama and the Senate to accept or reject the proposal.
G) Stop being anti-science. It's damaging on many levels. First, anyone who cares about science is automatically being turned against the GOP. Even traditionally right-leaning professions/fields like economics and engineering are becoming Democratic due to the assault on science and science spending. And second, most people accept global warming and that percentage is increasing. The global warming denial does nothing but make the GOP look anachronistic, as well as pissing off environmentalists who in another era were reliable conservative voters.
H) Stop promoting an odd combination of isolationism and blindly antagonistic foreign policy. The GOP loses credibility when it refuses to have reasonable solutions to complex international problems. There's nothing wrong with talking to enemies or throwing them some carrots. You could always bomb them later.
I) Stop the obsession with no tax increases. High taxes are bad. Most people accept that. Cutting spending by $700 billion per year is just not feasible. By opposing all taxes, the GOP is supporting high deficits. Agree to a 25 (from taxes)/75 (from spending) split in cutting the deficit and most people will be happy.
J) Stop the obsession with ideological purity. No party is going to win 50% of the vote if it insists on booting out anyone who disagrees with any part of its platform. Allow for regional diversity. Don't try to force southern ideology on the rest of the country. What gets a Republican elected in Louisiana doesn't get a Republican elected in Indiana.
So yes, the GOP has plenty of policies that it should be lauded for, but they get drowned out by the idiocy mentioned above.
Congratulations America
Well it is what you get if you do that pandering. In Turkey we see a prime example of that and what it did to the Turkish Republican Party. It went from the powerhouse of the nation to the party that people who dislike Erdogan would vote for if they weren't so tainted by the craziness of the last 10 years.
Congratulations America
That's not the same thing. You should make the same about the Democrats. About "your" party. It's always easy to diss the others.Hey, I made the similar complaints in my thread about The Republican Party last year....and was promptly dismissed by Loki, et al.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
I absolutely agree that the GOP has brought this upon themselves.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Loki, my question was more related to how pundits, strategists and GOP in general view polls and predictions, in hindsight. As I said, there seemed to be a disbelief/mistrust either in methods or numbers, because they got things so wrong.
There are different reasons bandied about....from GOP using outdated demographics or strategies, trying to persuade instead of motivate, or not using new technology or social media. While the DNC used math quants and social science to data-mine and micro-target (even better than consumer marketers!), built on community organizing, and activating 'ground troops'.
It's interesting that Romney was touted as a math and numbers guy, whose success in business was his keen ability to 'drill down' into data, target weakest links, and turn things around (for profit). Turns out that doesn't work so well in politics and voting. But the GOP still seems stumped by DNC's success and organization, and their secret sauce.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Tabs%3Darticle
I'm not a Democrat. But it seems to me (D) have more centrists or moderates than (R) these days. Especially since Tea Party and Christian Conservatives dominated '10 primaries, and put up a slate of crazies that got elected, mostly because they had a big (R) behind their name.
Women aren't a minority... gays - I guess you never heard of log cabin republicans? Hispanics - like I said Republicans are against racial discrimination as opposed to the other party. Non-Christians? Please.
Just a few points I'll get to the rest later.A: Why is this on the agenda? Why waste political capital on this? What's the effect other than pissing off moderate female voters?
B: One can support abortion without making it the centerpiece of most Republican campaigns. The pre-Reagan Republicans managed to do this just fine.
D: These issues explicitly target Muslims. The supporters of the measures know that, and the Muslims know that. Why give up on the Muslim vote just to pander to some lunatics (and these things are part of GOP platforms in at least several states)?
E: Yeah, the entire "war on religion/Christmas/Christians" that makes the headlines every year must be a figment of my imagination. As are the constant attempts to get the 10 commandments into courtrooms.
F: This is the kind of mentality that will lead the GOP to a path of destruction. You can cherry pick all the data you want. The Republican Party is incredibly hostile to immigration reform. The few Republicans who try to deal with the issue either get shouted down or ignored.
G: Yeah, it's not like Republicans regularly try to push the teaching of creationism/ID, or try to defund various sciences, or talk about conspiracies by the scientific community. It's telling that the Democratic get out the vote, fundraising, and political targeting methods are run almost entirely by trained statisticians, while the GOP is either unable or unwilling to do the same with its own election strategies.
H: The "stop giving foreign aid" line is mainly a Republican one. As is the obsession with how awful the UN is. On the flip side, any time a president talks to leaders of countries that are hostile to us, there are always Republican politicians waiting to attack him.
I:
J: DeMint has actively campaigned against GOP incumbents who weren't "conservative enough". Even ignoring DeMint, the GOP has refused to take a stand against Tea Party extremists. You can't all pretend to be Tea Partyers and then rail against the base when it forces moderate Republicans from office.
A. Because not everything is a political calculation. Principal matters. No one is realistically hurt if the Catholic church doesn't provide birth control in their health insurance policies. Birth control is everywhere.
B. Uh what campaign were you watching? Romney barely talked about abortion. It was all about how the economy was bad, the debt was too high and the middle east was imploding. Also energy.
D. It's one part of a city. Beyond that single issue no one has been in favor of stopping mosques from being built.
The party in power almost always has more moderates. In the early 2000's there were a lot more moderate republicans, in 2006 a lot of them lost because the general wave against R.Loki, my question was more related to how pundits, strategists and GOP in general view polls and predictions, in hindsight. As I said, there seemed to be a disbelief/mistrust either in methods or numbers, because they got things so wrong.
There are different reasons bandied about....from GOP using outdated demographics or strategies, trying to persuade instead of motivate, or not using new technology or social media. While the DNC used math quants and social science to data-mine and micro-target (even better than consumer marketers!), built on community organizing, and activating 'ground troops'.
It's interesting that Romney was touted as a math and numbers guy, whose success in business was his keen ability to 'drill down' into data, target weakest links, and turn things around (for profit). Turns out that doesn't work so well in politics and voting. But the GOP still seems stumped by DNC's success and organization, and their secret sauce.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...Tabs%3Darticle
I'm not a Democrat. But it seems to me (D) have more centrists or moderates than (R) these days. Especially since Tea Party and Christian Conservatives dominated '10 primaries, and put up a slate of crazies that got elected, mostly because they had a big (R) behind their name.
You seem blissfully ignorant of your fellow Republicans, in principle and practicality.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...ilver?page=0,0
Pretty good piece about the applicability of Silver's method to other poli sci problems.
Hope is the denial of reality
You don't run a major political party by constantly sticking to principles. You certainly don't shoot yourself in the foot for an incredibly minor principle.
Believe it or not, Romney wasn't the only Republican running for office. I should also note that Romney almost lost the primaries because he wasn't speaking enough about social issues. And the main reason he did win the primary (other than lots and lots of money, coupled with the incompetence of the other candidates) is because the other candidates kept on splitting the anti-Romney vote.
As for opposition to mosques:
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_162-6851256.html
http://thinkprogress.org/security/20...bia/?mobile=nc
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-20080237.html
Hope is the denial of reality
Well, the GOP is shellshocked, still trying to figure out 'where they went wrong'. They had access to the same polls (and predictions) as DNC, but either refused to believe them, relied too much on gut instinct that proved delusional....or they'd created such an insular bubble and echo chamber that nothing could penetrate.
Conservative media (Fox News, Beck and Limbaugh etc), strategists like Karl Rove, and pundits like Dike Morris seem blindsided. Romney was so convinced of a win, by everyone around him, his concession speech was written at the last minute.
That's been the most surprising thing so far, besides the cluelessness of the GOP -- the poor management of Romney's campaign. For a business whiz who supposedly knew how to get the "best" experts and advisors, it appears he got a lot of establishment Yes Men, or folks from within the delusional echo chamber.
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