Our "arab spring" is coming :)

[Kerberos2002]

Well well, finally people is awakening and asking for changes, thanks to our rule´s incompetence. It is a study case how a president with such people´s support (almost 90% in the beginning) and a huge legislative support of our congress. With this endorsement, our president could start ANY reform, and she just procrastinated. I wonder that you must work hard to be such an idiot, it can´t happen naturally. Well the result is below on news....bye bye re-election in 2014.

No main leadership no party behind of it, people just get out from their houses and started to complain at streets (of course there is some excess, but is quite difficult to control tens of thousands). They are tired of leaving in a Fantasy Island that really doesn´t exist, is just our government´s propaganda to foreigners.

100.000 in Rio de Janeiro
60.000 in Sao Paulo

Ten of thousands in many other major cities.

While 1 in 2 Brazilians don´t have basic sanitation. They spent 3,5 billion from tax payers to build new or reform old football stadiums!! No wonder they are upset.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-22946736

Tens of thousands of people marched through Brazil's largest city, Sao Paulo, on Monday as protests spread over rising public transport prices and the cost of staging the 2014 World Cup.Marches took place in at least ten cities including the capital, Brasilia, where demonstrators climbed onto the roof of the national congress building.
Protesters also clashed with police near Rio de Janeiro's state assembly.
The unrest began last week, after the announcement of increased bus fares.
But the complaints of demonstrators soon extended beyond transport costs when clashes in Sao Paulo led to claims of excessive use of force by police. Dozens of people were hurt, including several journalists.
Since then, protesters have voiced frustration at public transport, security, health and the extent of public investment in two international football tournaments.
The protests have increased since the start of the Confederations Cup on Saturday, seen as a dress rehearsal for the 2014 World Cup.
StandstillAs Monday's protests gathered strength, demonstrators in the capital, Brasilia, breached the high security area of the national congress building, climbing onto the roof of the Oscar Niemeyer-designed structure.
In Sao Paulo, some 65,000 people brought the country's largest city to a standstill, as police stood by and watched.
Security chiefs had met protest organisers earlier in an attempt to avert trouble and announced that regular police would not carry rubber bullet guns at the demonstration.
In Rio, another big crowd took to the streets of the city centre. As protesters reportedly tried to enter the state assembly, police fired rubber bullets and tear gas.
Demonstrators also set fire to a car and lit three bonfires on the streets.
There were also protests in Belem and clashes in Belo Horizonte, as protesters tried to make their way to a stadium hosting a Confederations Cup match between Tahiti and Nigeria.
In the northern city of Maceio, a student was reportedly shot in the face by a motorist angry with a crowd that blocked the road.
Marches also happened in Vitoria, Porto Alegre, Novo Hamburgo and other cities.
'Vandals'The spark for Brazil's escalating protests was a 2 June increase in the price of a single bus fare in Sao Paulo from 3 reals ($1.40, £0.90) to 3.20 reals.
Authorities say the rise is well below inflation, which since the last price increase in January 2011 has been at 15.5%, according to official figures.
Protesters who initially campaigned against bus fares have also expressed anger about inequality and corruption, demanding higher public spending on education and health.
Last Thursday, police fired tear gas and rubber bullets at demonstrators, many of whom were reported hurt.
Dozens of buses and buildings have so far been damaged, prompting Sao Paulo Governor Geraldo Alckmin to describe demonstrators as "vandals".
Before Saturday's opening Confederations Cup match in the capital, Brasilia, protesters tried to approach the Mane Garrincha stadium, but were dispersed by the police.
The following day, a similar march close to the Maracana stadium in Rio, where Mexico were playing Italy, was ended by police with rubber bullets and tear gas.
Eyewitnesses said police had used riot control measures - including firing rubber bullets and tear gas - against peaceful protesters.
Police denied they had acted unlawfully but said they would investigate the allegations.

[Timbuk2]

Not only the 2014 World Cup, you have the 2016 Olympics to pay for too ...

[Dreadnaught]

Anti-tax protests!

[Kerberos2002]

Not only the 2014 World Cup, you have the 2016 Olympics to pay for too ...

yep, we're screwed....

[Aimless]

Legalize and tax tranny prostitution and you'll be set

[wiggin]

Anti-tax protests!

This started as a protest against a modest rise in bus fare. How is that a tax, Dread? In fact, even with the increased fares, the government will still be heavily subsidizing public transport... from other taxes.

Obviously now frustration has boiled over into other issues, but I honestly don't think taxes are that important - police brutality, corruption, and the economy are much bigger as far as I can tell from my Brazilian colleagues.

[Kerberos2002]

This started as a protest against a modest rise in bus fare. How is that a tax, Dread? In fact, even with the increased fares, the government will still be heavily subsidizing public transport... from other taxes.

Obviously now frustration has boiled over into other issues, but I honestly don't think taxes are that important - police brutality, corruption, and the economy are much bigger as far as I can tell from my Brazilian colleagues.

Rise of urban violence, cities overflowed with cars turning urban mobility a hell in earth (São Paulo metro has 74km, New York has 369km!!), public health as a real disaster (we need to wait sometimes half year to an appointment or exam).

Resuming, the state failed in a epic way delivering public service with African quality but charging citizen with Scandinavian countries tax load. People is just saying : Enough!!

The last drop was this huge amount of money spent with football stadiums.

[Loki]

Seems like a protest against white elephants to me. Good for the Brazilians.

[Kerberos2002]

It's worth taking a second look on it (in english)

[Lewkowski]

Sounds like another leftist government in action.

[Khendraja'aro]

It's not so much "leftist" rather than "corrupt".

[Veldan Rath]

It's not so much "leftist" rather than "corrupt".

Yeah, more that.

Also, any country goes through all that spending up to an Olympics visit...

[Timbuk2]

Well they have the double-whammy of the World Cup in 2014 and then the Olympics in 2016. Quite an outlay needed.

Brazil has been slated as the new economic Tiger though; a lot of prosperity emerging.

[Kerberos2002]

Well they have the double-whammy of the World Cup in 2014 and then the Olympics in 2016. Quite an outlay needed.

Brazil has been slated as the new economic Tiger though; a lot of prosperity emerging.

New economic tiger ?



Studies have pointed that our industrialization level has dropped to the same level as we had in 1950. Our industry is, according to World Competitiveness Yearbook, one of the last in competitiveness among 60 countries. We import almost everything from China, from mouses to motorcycles.

And Lewkowski is right, there is corruption added with intense state interference in every economy matter, legal instability where contracts are not being respected and right now stagflation, (more than) expected results of leftist governments in Brazil.

Their proposals for sustained development are completely outdated, and such thing is not a surprise since they consider Cuba as a model to be followed.

[Loki]

It's not so much "leftist" rather than "corrupt".

You must be using a different definition of corrupt from the rest of the world. I fail to see how the Brazilian bids for every international event under the sun is corrupt. The money is being spent in stupid ways; it's not going into the politicians' pockets.

[Khendraja'aro]

You must be using a different definition of corrupt from the rest of the world. I fail to see how the Brazilian bids for every international event under the sun is corrupt. The money is being spent in stupid ways; it's not going into the politicians' pockets.

Well, Kerberos can probably tell you more about it but there is quite a strong connection between politicians and soccer functionaries.

I'm not saying that the bid for international events is a sign of corruption. I'm saying that the stuff surrounding these events point to quite high levels of corruption.

And the money is not going into politicians' pockets directly? Since when was that the single sign for corruption? You may be surprised to hear that, but corruption takes on more forms than mere direct money grabbing.

[Loki]

Well, Kerberos can probably tell you more about it but there is quite a strong connection between politicians and soccer functionaries.

I'm not saying that the bid for international events is a sign of corruption. I'm saying that the stuff surrounding these events point to quite high levels of corruption.

And the money is not going into politicians' pockets directly? Since when was that the single sign for corruption? You may be surprised to hear that, but corruption takes on more forms than mere direct money grabbing.

Yes, there's some degree of corruption surrounding all these kind of events. But Brazil is no more corrupt than its neighbors. There's a reason the protests are taking place in Brazil.

[Khendraja'aro]

Yes, Loki, the reason for those protests is that, while the neighbours are surely as corrupt as Brazil, they don't have such a focal point for the protests.

That's the thing with protests, Loki. They usually focus on one thing which gets the whole thing rolling - and then it spreads to other topics.

And that's most likely why there are no protests in the surrounding countries: There has been no such focal point as of yet. Create such a one and it may spread like wildfire. May.

I mean, this stuff is par for the course for any demagogue: An event which costs a lot of money. And areas of interest which could benefit from that money. That's something almost anyone can get behind.

Of course, you should know how fickle societies can be in such regards - or did your PoliSci-studies neglect the actual human angle?

[Loki]

Lots of things can act as the final straw, enflaming the population. The reality is that such events happen fairly frequently in most developing countries. However, most of them don't have nearly the effect that they do in Brazil (and Turkey). The implication is that the people are far more fed up in Brazil. What separates Brazil from its neighbors isn't the corruption nor the poverty, but rather repeated attempts by the government to increase its international prestige at a huge domestic cost.

[Khendraja'aro]

Aha. So a "rightist country" (to use Lewk's terms) wouldn't try to increase its international standing by holding such events?

[Kerberos2002]

Well, Kerberos can probably tell you more about it but there is quite a strong connection between politicians and soccer functionaries.

I'm not saying that the bid for international events is a sign of corruption. I'm saying that the stuff surrounding these events point to quite high levels of corruption.

And the money is not going into politicians' pockets directly? Since when was that the single sign for corruption? You may be surprised to hear that, but corruption takes on more forms than mere direct money grabbing.

There is strong signs of overpricing in almost every large bid in Brazil, corruption is in the Brazilian blood on both sides : The organization that tries to sell for a much higher price and the public service that is in charge to monitor and point the distortions. We have a special justice, called Tribunal de Contas da União (TCU), is a kind of audit body.

These guys are responsible to build reports and point existence of overpricing in public bids, sometimes they do, and the matter dies here, since they don´t possess any judicial power. They just report.

Regarding our politicians, almost 20% of our congressman is under some kind of prosecution.

Many congressman get elected not to serve a higher cause, but to run away from justice, since being a congressmen ordinary justice can´t reach him.

If i could translate Brazilian politician i would in three words : Corporatism (legislation for your own benefits), inefficiency and corruption.

Dont, D-O-N´T say that is quite the same in US, it is not. Most of these Brazilian politicians would be in jail if they were in US, and here they are free as birds.

Regarding the protests, my fear is that, like a tornado, they disappear as suddenly as they showed up, because there is no leadership, no specific demands, just generic claims. Everybody wants a better life, less corruption etc...but nobody tells how to do that. So is hard to keep going with such thing this way.




http://www.iie.com/publications/inte...esearchID=2426

nice analysis of Peter G. Peterson Institute for International Economics (podcast)

they guy is right, official inflation is an average, inflation of goods in supermarkets are higher. In one phrase (you know it very well )

IS THE ECONOMY, STUPID!!


NOTE : Rio de Janeiro, right now :




300.000 estimated

[Loki]

Aha. So a "rightist country" (to use Lewk's terms) wouldn't try to increase its international standing by holding such events?

I think you're confusing me with Lewk. Turkey is a good example of a rightist government doing the same.

http://www.transparency.org/cpi2012/results

Brazil is the least corrupt of its neighbors (excluding tiny Uruguay).

[Khendraja'aro]

Yes, those ranks are nice. But since they're ranks, they actually don't say all that much.

I mean, if we had a useful metric like, for example, "amount of dollars misspent due to corruption", then this would be a useful table.

Just imagine two races: One where a Laborghini races against a Ferrari (and the Ferrari wins) and one where a Ferrari races against a guy in a wheelchair. Both times the Ferrari comes first place.

Terribly useful, ain't it?

And even if there was such a score: Still doesn't say much. You're obviously arguing here for the sake of arguing, instead of actually making any point. Oh well, I do that too. Then again, I trust Kerberos' statements way over yours, him being an actual resident and all.

[Kerberos2002]

Yes, those ranks are nice. But since they're ranks, they actually don't say all that much.

I mean, if we had a useful metric like, for example, "amount of dollars misspent due to corruption", then this would be a useful table.

Just imagine two races: One where a Laborghini races against a Ferrari (and the Ferrari wins) and one where a Ferrari races against a guy in a wheelchair. Both times the Ferrari comes first place.

Terribly useful, ain't it?

And even if there was such a score: Still doesn't say much. You're obviously arguing here for the sake of arguing, instead of actually making any point. Oh well, I do that too. Then again, I trust Kerberos' statements way over yours, him being an actual resident and all.

nah, these ranks means nothing. You need to live here and see it by your own. Go to a public school, visit a public hospital, try to request our police service for any emergency, THEN you will start to understand how having a tax load of 35% can deliver such epic fail public service quality. Just because a HUGE amount of money simply does not reach its destiny.

Globo journalist hit by a rubber bullet, police is rising the violence. Things start to stay out of control.




Pepper spray against protester





As we say here,

THE POTATO OF OUR PRESIDENT IS TOASTING! LOL


http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/1...5#.UcOTWPnql6k

I read abstract, and agree with researcher

Abstract
The election of Lula (Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva) as president of Brazil in October 2002 broke new ground: for the first time in Latin America a working man was directly elected as president of the Republic. Lula also came to power as leader of the Partido dos Trabalhadores, the Workers' Party, with its close links to ‘new unionism’, ‘liberation theology’ and mass social movements. The possibility of his election caused strong market reaction but, by the start of 2005, Lula and his government had reassured their critics on the right. They had also dismayed many supporters on the left, including members of the pt, by failing to tackle urgent social problems. Even so, on the basis of a strong economic performance and support in the polls, Lula seemed assured of re-election in October 2006. Suddenly, in May 2005, came the first revelations of a corruption scandal, leading to a crisis described as ‘the most extensive in the whole history of the Brazilian republic’. Lula lost some of his closest ministerial colleagues, and the pt most of its senior officers, with the threat of impeachment for Lula himself. That crisis is still unresolved, but has already severely damaged the pt, virtually paralysed government and made Lula's re-election seem ever more unlikely. This paper seeks to set the current crisis in wider political perspective and to reflect on its possible impact on a political system which in 2002, and even in 2004, gave evidence of supporting a robust and stable democracy.

What happened was only a change of thieves (from right to left wing), to seek support to his government, Lula was very tolerant with corruption, so he "bought" fidelity of political parties allocating their leaders in key position of many Ministries with huge budgets. So when you ask to the rat to take care of the cheese, can you wonder what happen ? Not difficult to guess huh ?

[Loki]

Yes, those ranks are nice. But since they're ranks, they actually don't say all that much.

I mean, if we had a useful metric like, for example, "amount of dollars misspent due to corruption", then this would be a useful table.

Just imagine two races: One where a Laborghini races against a Ferrari (and the Ferrari wins) and one where a Ferrari races against a guy in a wheelchair. Both times the Ferrari comes first place.

Terribly useful, ain't it?

And even if there was such a score: Still doesn't say much. You're obviously arguing here for the sake of arguing, instead of actually making any point. Oh well, I do that too. Then again, I trust Kerberos' statements way over yours, him being an actual resident and all.

Actually, you present an argument precisely against using specific dollar figures. People are not aware how much money is being stolen by politicians or those working with politicians. Instead, people act on their perception of corruption. The above index is based on such perceptions. I repeat: the people on the ground in Brazil do not believe the country is as corrupt as people on the ground in neighboring countries. Whether those perceptions are based on reality is not relevant in this situation. This is yet another indication that corruption is far from the main case of these protests.

[Kerberos2002]

Actually, you present an argument precisely against using specific dollar figures. People are not aware how much money is being stolen by politicians or those working with politicians. Instead, people act on their perception of corruption. The above index is based on such perceptions. I repeat: the people on the ground in Brazil do not believe the country is as corrupt as people on the ground in neighboring countries. Whether those perceptions are based on reality is not relevant in this situation. This is yet another indication that corruption is far from the main case of these protests.

Politicians and corruption have a STRONG correlation in "average Brazilian Joe" mind, and yes, these protest are mainly against the institutionalized corruption and impunity. But of course you are right, corruption in Brazil is not like Paraguay (and we know that), but this doesn´t attenuate our frustration, because Paraguay is at the top of the list

[Lewkowski]

Aha. So a "rightist country" (to use Lewk's terms) wouldn't try to increase its international standing by holding such events?

That's not the issue with whats wrong with Brazil. Forcing people out of homes w/o even compensation? That's a society that believes the government and what it wants is more important than the individual.

[Loki]

Politicians and corruption have a STRONG correlation in "average Brazilian Joe" mind, and yes, these protest are mainly against the institutionalized corruption and impunity. But of course you are right, corruption in Brazil is not like Paraguay (and we know that), but this doesn´t attenuate our frustration, because Paraguay is at the top of the list

I think we're arguing semantics here. The Brazilian people correctly believe that their government is not spending their money wisely, despite some of the highest tax rates in the Western Hemisphere. While Lula enacted some policies that were economically stupid, he gave the appearance of wanting to help the common man. The new government is more concerned with its own image than it is with helping the people it is supposed to represent. And now it's facing the consequences for this.

[GGT]

There's another angle to discuss: monetizing sports/athletics. It helps fund academic universities, infrastructure, and business (as economic stimulus). But it's really using "entertainment" to create growth, while "taxing" service workers first.

[earthJoker]

Actually, you present an argument precisely against using specific dollar figures. People are not aware how much money is being stolen by politicians or those working with politicians. Instead, people act on their perception of corruption. The above index is based on such perceptions. I repeat: the people on the ground in Brazil do not believe the country is as corrupt as people on the ground in neighboring countries. Whether those perceptions are based on reality is not relevant in this situation. This is yet another indication that corruption is far from the main case of these protests.

Actually I don't think that the level is that important. Once the corruption is a real problem, it doesn't matter how much. I may ask my sister in law (who is Brazilian) what she thinks about this. One theory that I heard now from different sources is quite interesting.

The reason that the protests are in Brazil is actually because they are better off then their neighbors. They have reached something over the past years, and now as the see that there is hope, they don't accept the faults of their system any more. Humans tend to give up and get used to suffer, only suffering combined with hope will make you stand up and fight. It seems the Brazilian have hope, and what they hope for is to stand on their own feet.

A very important part of the protests to me is that people not only demand more government spending on those things that lack spending, but also demand less money spent on luxury projects of the government. The question is, if they still will protests for cuts when it comes to laying off government workers. If you want to cut down bureaucracy you also have to cut down the bureaucrats, and that's where the union come into play. The worst thing that could happen to this, is to end up like in Greece.