Austerity kills

[Khendraja'aro]

my alternative would be don't be so stupid as to get into the debt in the first place.

This is like blaming a homeless person's situation on him not renting an apartment.

So we're back to the household-logic?

[Aimless]

I think instead of these depressing measures Greece should bet on tourism and on the marketing and provision of expensive STD-tests.

[RandBlade]

So we're back to the household-logic?

I don't know if you're genuinely this stupid or just faking it as everyone else seems to understand. I've rephrased it for you, explained it again and again and even drawn you a picture but none of that seems to work. So try turning on your reading comprehension and read the first page again.

[Khendraja'aro]

My dear, if you yourself would begin to adress the actual points presented in my first post? Works two ways, that reading comprehension thingie you seem to have turned off in favour of flailing around blindly in the face of facts you don't like.

[Loki]

You're still missing the very obvious fact that Greece literally could not maintain the same social spending levels. It had no money. Which part of that is hard to understand?

[Khendraja'aro]

And that's still not pertinent to the point the authors were making...

[RandBlade]

Yes it is. The judgement call can only be made real of there is an alternative. An alternative that:

A: Does not appear in the OP.
B: Does not appear in any subsequent post.
C: Is alluded to in the final paragraph in the OP.

That final paragraph reads as a badly written blurb to a hoax book. "Want to make money quick then buy this book."

Maybe because it IS a badly written blurb to try and sell a book.

[Loki]

And that's still not pertinent to the point the authors were making...

Yes, the author's point is that being bankrupt is bad. I agree.

[Aimless]

RB, was it you wot decided they could only spend 6% of GDP on healthcare? Own up, it was you wot dun it everyone sawr you

[RandBlade]

LOL

[RandBlade]

Yes, the author's point is that being bankrupt is bad. I agree.

Incidentally I'd use Greece's austerity as a case study as to why UK and USA cutting spending back is a good idea. We can wait until bankrupt or take action before hand. I'll again go with it being stupid to wait until bankrupt.

[Being]

A few people here seem to believe that debt is not one of the backbones of capitalism. Very funny that.

[Aimless]

A few people here seem to believe that debt is not one of the backbones of capitalism. Very funny that.

That's only a fair comparison in situations where you expect to make money

[Khendraja'aro]

Incidentally I'd use Greece's austerity as a case study as to why UK and USA cutting spending back is a good idea. We can wait until bankrupt or take action before hand. I'll again go with it being stupid to wait until bankrupt.

So, you want to cripple your economy, cripple your public services and kill your population? Because that's what Greece is doing right now - and gaining nothing from doing that.

You obviously failed to read what I or the authors wrote... Nothing new here with you. You're ignoring the examples of Norway, Finland and Iceland.

[earthJoker]

For some reason I just have the feeling that the OP sources are using selective statistics. There is no example of a country that has austerity politics successfully, yet I live in one:

Austerity measurements started in 1998 and austerity is part of the constitution since 2003

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance...nt#Switzerland

The major problem is that Greece has to introduce this policy during recession, which shouldn't be done in a ideal world scenario. But you can't turn back time, and Greece is not in the position to postpone austerity either.

[RandBlade]

So, you want to cripple your economy, cripple your public services and kill your population? Because that's what Greece is doing right now - and gaining nothing from doing that.

You obviously failed to read what I or the authors wrote... Nothing new here with you. You're ignoring the examples of Norway, Finland and Iceland.

You score a zero again for reading comprehension. You read me saying I want us to avoid going bankrupt like Greece and take that to mean I want to go bankrupt like Greece. No. Just no.

Iceland had austerity. Much more austerity than us. So well done your alternative to austerity is bigger and harsher austerity.

Of course like I always supported Iceland let its private banks go bust and let unguaranteed* foreign savers be burnt rather than bailing them out. Iceland also wasn't in the Euro. If you're coming around to the idea that losing all monetary controls due to the Euro was a bad idea then well done your just over a decade too late for Greece.

* As opposed to Ireland bailing out unguaranteed savers and Cyprus trying to screw over guaranteed ones.

[Being]

That's only a fair comparison in situations where you expect to make money

I get your point but I'm going to counter with loans are almost always granted in order to make money whether the borrower does or not. We don't need to limit our view to the borrower perspective. And I'll also argue that governments borrow money in anticipation of that borrowing increasing revenue.

[GGT]

Could you explain what you mean what you write that 'NO ... household operates debt-free' ? I am pretty certain I could think of some examples of debt-free households if you aren't including paying outstanding bills on their due-date in your understanding of debt.

In US terms that can mean a number of things: using credit cards (or pay-day loans) for purchases in advance of paychecks; living in homes with a mortgage, second mortgage, home equity loan or equity line of credit; driving a car that's either a rental/lease debt or bought with an auto loan; outstanding educational loans; outstanding medical costs.

Our senior citizens with Medicare "coverage" are responsible for paying 20% of many medical costs. A, B, C, D, medigap, donut holes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicar...ital_insurance

So yeah, hardly any US household can consider themselves truly 'debt-free'. Student loans can't be discharged in bankruptcy. And a majority of our bankruptcies are medically-related.

[earthJoker]

Living in homes with a mortgage is not living in dept as long as the house is worth more then the mortgage.

[GGT]

Are you unaware of the crash in US housing values, and the mortgage crisis?

[earthJoker]

Are you unaware of the crash in US housing values, and the mortgage crisis?

I hope this is not a honest question.

With "he house is worth more" I mean the real value not a speculative value. Mortgages in the US are, differently to here, often far above the actual value of the property.

[GGT]

I hope this is not a honest question.

With "he house is worth more" I mean the real value not a speculative value. Mortgages in the US are, differently to here, often far above the actual value of the property.

Then you know the US treats mortgage loans, property valuations, and investment speculation (aka CDOs or MBSs) in the same vein, quite unlike other nations?

[earthJoker]

I stay with what I said. Mortgages are not the problem, mortgages that are higher then the real value of the object are the problem. And when banks start to give out mortgages for expected values you are in deep shit.

[Hazir]

I stay with what I said. Mortgages are not the problem, mortgages that are higher then the real value of the object are the problem. And when banks start to give out mortgages for expected values you are in deep shit.

I would use market value rather than 'real' value as the latter can be confusing.

I think living without debts is very well possible, all you need for it is some planning based upon your actual income and not on your inflated desires.

[RandBlade]

How do you define "real value" as opposed to market value? And I disagree on the notion that if you have a mortgage but a house worth more then you're not in debt - you're not in "net debt" as your assets exceed your debts but you're still in debt.

[earthJoker]

I would use market value rather than 'real' value as the latter can be confusing.

Market values? Like in the real estate bubble? The problem I have with the term market value is that it includes prices that people are only willing to pay to sell the object later to a higher price. What I would use is the price you are willing to pay for an object if you know you can't sell it to a higher price and you actually want to use it. Of course it is harder to measure. But we all know of examples of bubbles.

you're not in "net debt" as your assets exceed your debts but you're still in debt.

OK then let's call it "net debt", that's OK with me, you got what I wanted to say. But it is not only that the assets exceed the debts, that's not sufficient, you need to be able to pay your interests. But then again mortgage interests are close to zero over here.

[Dreadnaught]

RE logic that underpins opening post:

People need food to live. Thus, if the government doesn't provide them with free or subsidized food, the government is killing people.

[Being]

RE logic that underpins opening post:

People need food to live. Thus, if the government doesn't provide them with free or subsidized food, the government is killing people.

Lewk? Is that you? 'Cause this reflects the shallow disposition that adores vigilantes.

[Aimless]

RE logic that underpins opening post:

People need food to live. Thus, if the government doesn't provide them with free or subsidized food, the government is killing people.

No, that's not the same line of reasoning.

[Veldan Rath]

I would use market value rather than 'real' value as the latter can be confusing.

I think living without debts is very well possible, all you need for it is some planning based upon your actual income and not on your inflated desires.

Bingo.