Remember: every little bit helps
Happy Earth Overshoot Day
Remember: every little bit helps
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
The free market will solve it.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Who even makes this claim? Economists surely don't.Originally Posted by Nessus
LOL "ecological debt" the hilarious things liberals come up with.
I seem to recall you as a keen proponent of the "nation state as a household" analogy (shitty as it is) when discussing economical policy, how about seeing the planet as a household? Your income is 1370 watts per square meter. Right now we're blowing through dad's savings account in the form of oil and gas, but you know what happens when you blow through savings accounts, right? Now it's up to you to feed the household of 7 billion people (and change) 3 pork tenderloins every single day, on 1370 watts per square meter. Go on, mister wizard, we're all waiting.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Explain yourself, i want to know what a young-earth creationist finds "hilarious"
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Interesting idea. I find the concept logically dubious but emotionally compelling.
I've been trying to find some pro-nuclear environmental groups to contribute to, but can't seem to find any.
In a nutshell, creationists believe only GOD can end the Earth and/or mankind. Since GOD created all things -- universes, planets, suns, stars, and all life.....only GOD can end them. In His infinite wisdom, GOD wouldn't have commanded Man to go forth and prosper, using fruits from air, land, sea, or other creatures....that could turn out to be Man killing Mankind.
Creationists don't seem to have an explanation for the things Man has created which threaten multiple species, or the planet. Not limited to nuclear bombs or biological weapons. GOD gave Man dominion over Earth. Drill Baby, Drill.
You're right.
So who exactly owns this nature and will be reimbursed if it's damaged? In fact, explain to me how exactly the free market will solve this? Because I've heard similar things about polluting etc, and I'm, well, skeptical to say the least.
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
But pollution problems of yesteryear have been resolved.Please quote the biggest pollution scare stories of 100-200 years ago and compare them to today's scare stories. Are they the same or not?
Please compare doomladen ecological predictions from centuries past and compare to what's actually happened today and let me know how many have come true?
*blinkers* Indeed the price of Earth-stock has historically always tended to rise *blinkers *But pollution problems of yesteryear have been resolved.
Please compare doomladen ecological predictions from centuries past and compare to what's actually happened today and let me know how many have come true?
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
Doomladen prediction are mostly shit anyway, so that's no surprise. In the meantime, however, fine particle air pollution kills hundreds of thousands every year, which has decreased, by the way, due to heavy regulation on coal industry, not because of capitalism. And keep in mind that happened to a lot of toxic pollutants as well. Why do you think, say, cadmium pollution has decreased? I'll give a hint: government regulations. Why do you think there hasn't been as much smog in London since the great smog, as opposed to, say, big cities in China or Mexico? Maybe something to do with the clean air act that followed it? In LA the number of worst smog incidents decreased from hundreds to a few, thanks to... strict regulations.But pollution problems of yesteryear have been resolved.
Please compare doomladen ecological predictions from centuries past and compare to what's actually happened today and let me know how many have come true?
And "pollution problems of yesteryear have been resolved" my arse - since the 1980s the dead zone in the gulf of Mexico has roughly doubled, while the one in the North Sea is improving because of environmental policies; in New Zealand pollution by farmers has lead to a river being too polluted to be touched by humans, according to health regulations; you can't eat fish caught in the Sydney harbour because it contains too much dioxins, and is expected to last for decades, and that is after a clean up; those dioxins were released, coincidentally, by Union Carbide, which also was responsible for Bhopal, which, by the way, still isn't cleaned up thirty years later (and the boss is still wanted in India, but isn't extradited by the US); and you have tonnes of plastic floating around the oceans for years. Yeah, everything is obviously fine and dandy.
Also, come to think of it, I'm not really familiar with any pollution scare stories from 200 years ago, to be honest, considering the industrial revolution was still going on then the situation is also not really comparable to now, is it?
So, since you failed to answer my questions, who owns nature? I suppose the government is responsible there, and has indeed filed lawsuits to compensate their expenses for cleaning up chemical spills etc. But if they are responsible, surely they also have the power to regulate emissions into it. Besides, doesn't this make it fair game to dump whatever you want in the ocean in international waters?
Second, since you haven't answered how capitalism is supposed to combat pollution.. I assume the rationale is that if a company fucks something up, the affected can sue em to get compensated. This will lead to companies pre-empting this by preventing major pollution in the first place, right? If you can agree to that, I can outline a long list of problems with that
PS I know I shifted towards pollution, but regarding resources, the only thing capitalism addressed (together with scientific advancement) is replacing a used up resource with something else. Using the budget analysis, we spent all our savings, but luckily we can still mortgage the house..
Keep on keepin' the beat alive!
Rand and I may see this differently, but capitalism combats pollution by adapting to new circumstances. Some of those circumstances can be outright phaseouts/bans of pollutants that society truly wants to ban. We've been able to do that with a number of ozone-depleting pollutants.
But these kinds of phaseouts are much more effective than all these taxing schemes, which I increasingly suspect are popular with bureaucrats simply because they see money.
Comparing a nation to a household is simplistic but more or less accurate. There are only so many things you can do with debt.
1. Pay it. (Works like a household).
2. Let inflation eat away at the real cost of the debt.
Have yet to hear a serious politician state that their plan to deal with the debt is to devalue their currency and make the dollar weaker. Liberals actually support this plan but I have yet to hear a serious Democratic candidate for president put forth that position.
You didn't actually answer the question.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Doomladen prediction are mostly shit anyway, so that's no surprise. In the meantime, however, fine particle air pollution kills hundreds of thousands every year, which has decreased, by the way, due to heavy regulation on coal industry, not because of capitalism. And keep in mind that happened to a lot of toxic pollutants as well. Why do you think, say, cadmium pollution has decreased? I'll give a hint: government regulations. Why do you think there hasn't been as much smog in London since the great smog, as opposed to, say, big cities in China or Mexico? Maybe something to do with the clean air act that followed it? In LA the number of worst smog incidents decreased from hundreds to a few, thanks to... strict regulations.
And "pollution problems of yesteryear have been resolved" my arse - since the 1980s the dead zone in the gulf of Mexico has roughly doubled, while the one in the North Sea is improving because of environmental policies; in New Zealand pollution by farmers has lead to a river being too polluted to be touched by humans, according to health regulations; you can't eat fish caught in the Sydney harbour because it contains too much dioxins, and is expected to last for decades, and that is after a clean up; those dioxins were released, coincidentally, by Union Carbide, which also was responsible for Bhopal, which, by the way, still isn't cleaned up thirty years later (and the boss is still wanted in India, but isn't extradited by the US); and you have tonnes of plastic floating around the oceans for years. Yeah, everything is obviously fine and dandy.
Also, come to think of it, I'm not really familiar with any pollution scare stories from 200 years ago, to be honest, considering the industrial revolution was still going on then the situation is also not really comparable to now, is it?
So, since you failed to answer my questions, who owns nature? I suppose the government is responsible there, and has indeed filed lawsuits to compensate their expenses for cleaning up chemical spills etc. But if they are responsible, surely they also have the power to regulate emissions into it. Besides, doesn't this make it fair game to dump whatever you want in the ocean in international waters?
Second, since you haven't answered how capitalism is supposed to combat pollution.. I assume the rationale is that if a company fucks something up, the affected can sue em to get compensated. This will lead to companies pre-empting this by preventing major pollution in the first place, right? If you can agree to that, I can outline a long list of problems with that
PS I know I shifted towards pollution, but regarding resources, the only thing capitalism addressed (together with scientific advancement) is replacing a used up resource with something else. Using the budget analysis, we spent all our savings, but luckily we can still mortgage the house..
Good post
Pinning hopes on "free market capitalism" to address and solve environmental issues has inherent problems and conflicts-of-interest. First of all, 'free markets' is a misnomer, because they can't function 'free' of regulations or laws. Secondly, 'capitalism' means those with the most capital (money) also have the most power and leverage over politicians and legislators. Deep pockets can buy lobbyists, lawyers, even 'expert scientists' who will distort or deny science itself.
That corporate capital also flows to information via journalism, news media, social media....and before ya know it we have fights in a propaganda war, instead of addressing real issues with long-term, global impacts. It'd be nice if the extreme right would stop denying there are environmental problems caused by man, that man should address, and it'd be nice if the extreme left would stop hating on man so much that we're considered an interloper species, and destroyers of the planet.
So you're saying capitalism doesn't go against pollution at all, but it's great at adapting to new circumstances like a ban? I guess that shows that government bans are a-okay then!Rand and I may see this differently, but capitalism combats pollution by adapting to new circumstances. Some of those circumstances can be outright phaseouts/bans of pollutants that society truly wants to ban. We've been able to do that with a number of ozone-depleting pollutants.
But these kinds of phaseouts are much more effective than all these taxing schemes, which I increasingly suspect are popular with bureaucrats simply because they see money.
I would also like to point out the vast majority of government interference to combat pollution are not tax schemes but regulations and bans, on things like emissions, dumping waste, etc., and that it's also not that unreasonable to tax pollution considering the government tends to be the one footing the bill on it, and the main reason it's used in the first place is as an economic incentive as an alternative to regulations and bans, to have capitalism find the solution, not the other way around.
Capitalism doesn't "combat" pollution at all. If it were doing so it wouldn't be capitalism.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Capitalism targets problems and deals with them, you just need the right incentives.
If the problem is a lack of finite resources (as this OP campaign is about) then capitalism is great at resolving that issue and finding either more or better ways to exploit resources. It is totally ignorant of history and reality to presume that scientific and technological developments won't be able to develop further.
Luddites
You do know that our earth is actually finite? As in: Has known mass, radius and thus also finite resources?
That's not "luddism", my dear. Maybe you should look up the term as you're not knowing what it means.
There's this joke of a man who jumps of a skyscraper. He has fallen 200 meters and thinks to himself: "Well, up to now everything has been just fine! No reason to worry, I'm sure the rest of the way will be equally good."
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
No one is saying we need to dismantle electrical looms to preserve jobs, but there is still a finite amount of electricity to be had on this here Earth. You, quite literally, seem to believe there is a magical solution to generating infinite amounts of power and chemicals, just because that's what capitalism calls for. The Komsomol couldn't have done a better job at brain-washing.
I do like the cute smilie, though.
Edit: God damnit Khen don't tell him about the etymology of luddite
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Don't worry. Just like Lewk doesn't really get Christianity, Rand seems to be equally incapable of understanding Luddism.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Or the simple experiment of a bacteria colony on a petri dish, but the free market will fix it.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
Yea, and I verily say to you my brothers, put verily forth thy faith into ye free markets for they verily shall fix everything! Hallelujah!
/edit: Not enough verily
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Where incentives = profits right? Because it wouldn't be capitalism* if incentives = good of humanity, but no profits, or even a net monetary loss.
*It could still be capitalism, but it would be a poor application of it.
Quorum Sensing
. . .
I'm not sure whether that's free markets or fascism.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
I'd like to think that humanity is more intelligent than a bunch of amoebas but frankly, given our track record, I'm not that sure.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
You need look no further than Randy and his magic market elves to find depression and disappointment in your species.
In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.
That's extraordinarily naïve and presupposes that there are perfect solutions--that are PALATABLE to us--to which we can arrive through capitalism. What you're expressing is just another version of the same faith that "informs" the religious and it is a faith that is totally removed from a reality in which we often find ourselves to be "too late" or find ourselves fatally constrained, eg. by the physical world, by ethical considerations, etc.Capitalism targets problems and deals with them, you just need the right incentives.
If the problem is a lack of finite resources (as this OP campaign is about) then capitalism is great at resolving that issue and finding either more or better ways to exploit resources. It is totally ignorant of history and reality to presume that scientific and technological developments won't be able to develop further.
Luddites
And that's without even getting into the "right incentives" handwaving
"One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."
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