When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Are we going to put sanctions on another 3 Russians now?
Hope is the denial of reality
A Malaysia Airways passenger airliner has crashed over Ukraïne. Government is blaming the insurgents, insurgents deny having capability to down a plane flying at cruising altitude.
Congratulations America
And I'm suddenly wondering when the people I know flying that route were traveling..
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Hope your friends are OK Flixy. Many planes travel over warzones at 40,000 feet, though it always bemuses me when on-board flight navigation shows the flight taking a straight line and sharp detour around and away from eg Israel every time.
Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer
Thanks I think they're already on vacation. Horrible for families of those who were on it, though.
Flying over warzones is one thing though, but in this area multiple planes have been shot down the past few days, seems weird to still fly there. While I imagine Ukraine and Russia military can distinguish between military and civilian flights* I could see rebels accidentally shooting down a plane they think is military. If they have weapons that can reach it though.
* mistakes happen of course, like that Iranian plane, but this one didn't take off near, and unlike that Korean airliner I doubt this one was mistaken for a spy plane.
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Well, the usual threat is due to MANPADs, y'know, the shoulder-carried ground-air-missiles.
But those have a maximum ceiling of about 6 km (depending on the type). For a height of 10 km you're probably looking at radar-guided stationary/vehicular launchers and I'd suspect that those are really only accessible to a professional military, due to the training involved. And someone correct me if I'm wrong, but such launchers should also have some kind of system able to pickup the civilian transponders used by commcercial airplanes...
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
reddit post with what seems to be the most up to date info:
http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/co...kraine/cj01zdm
morons shot it down thinking it was Ukrainian
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
Regarding professional military: http://voiceofrussia.com/news/2014_0...allation-1561/
Not a clue about the latter bit.
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So much for the statement of the separatists that they "don't have the means to shoot down such a high-flying plane". Yeah, a BUK will do.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
Dead kid pictures are starting to pop up everywhere
"In a field where an overlooked bug could cost millions, you want people who will speak their minds, even if they’re sometimes obnoxious about it."
One of the reasons I stick to news sites with editors, who tend to avoid such pictures. There are things I'd rather not see.
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Russia gave some of the most advanced military equipment to the nationalist scum who are fighting the Ukrainian government and anyone is surprised that this scum then used the weapons against a civilian aircraft? They just shot down 2 military jets yesterday.
I wonder what happens when these weapons end up in the hands of Chechens.
Hope is the denial of reality
I'm not surprised, really. It's par for the course that the separatists now want to remove the black box themselves and bring it to Russia.
When the stars threw down their spears
And watered heaven with their tears:
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?
You think this might finally turn the German public against Putin, or are they still in a love affairs with him? As long as Germany remains ambivalent about Russia's actions in Ukraine, no serious sanctions will be passed.
Hope is the denial of reality
To be honest, Loki, I'm not sure what they'd hope to gain by intentionally downing a passenger jet. These guys may be scum, but they're not terrorists in the traditional sense of the word. I'm more inclined to think they thought they were shooting down a Ukrainian military transport; they downed an An-26 just this week that was flying at about 21,000 feet. Even though they (or their Russian sponsors) have access to SA-11 and SA-17 systems, meaning they certainly have a pretty capable system for taking out aircraft without countermeasures, that doesn't mean they have good IFF or radar systems (or the knowledge to properly operate them).
I'm not suggesting they're justified or absolved of responsibility, of course, I just don't really see the point in shooting down a completely uninvolved civilian jet.
My thoughts as well.
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It was a mistake. They thought it was a Ukrainian military plane:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/1...airlines-plane
Hope is the denial of reality
Pretty obvious it was the rebels. I mean, it would have to have been an accident. None of the actors there is going to deliberately shoot at a civilian plane, so it would have had to have been someone mistaking it for a military one, and the rebels don't have any planes to mistake for civilian aircraft.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
Plus the government has no reason to try to shoot down any planes considering that the rebels don't have any.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-...170537363.html
I think it's pretty obvious that Putin calls Obama right after the incident to make sure Obama isn't planning military retaliation. Why call if it was the Ukrainian government responsible?
Hope is the denial of reality
An Ukrainian military transport plane cruising at 10.000m a mere 70km from the Russian border? Where did they think this plane was heading?
I guess the Russians lost one EU country opposing harsh sanctions today. Can't imagine being soft on Russia can be popular once the names of some 50+ Dutch passengers on that plane start to get out.
Congratulations America
I suppose there will be passengers from other western countries. Lot's of families as well it's holidays season.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
Americans on board has already been confirmed.
Edit: and French.
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My first thought when I heard about it was that it might have been a false flag operation. This possibility has been removed since the Russian separatists took credit for the downing, but it did make some sense before then. Putin's been fighting this as a PR war, and Russia's been known to play dirty in the past - Alexander Litvinenko comes to mind. Since he'd have been acting through a proxy, he has plausible deniability if the op fails, and a massive PR victory if he succeeded in pinning the blame on Ukraine.
Putin's a nasty guy, but not that nasty. But ultimately, he is to blame for giving these kind of weapons to a bunch of nationalist idiots who are incapable of using their brains.
Hope is the denial of reality
Appearantly typically half of the passengers on those flights are Dutch. 50 is a conservative estimate.
Congratulations America
I'm really not sure. Think of all the civilian deaths he's already caused - although most of those were collateral damage, it's not too difficult a leap to then start justifying intentional deaths.
Mandatory "I still know it didn't happen like that, it was just a hypothetical" to keep at bay certain parties who would jump on me if I didn't say it every single post.
The problem is that there's no real plausible chain of events that could lead to Ukraine shooting down that jet. There's no reason for them to have anti-air units active in the area.
The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun
There is only one: Shooting it down to blame it on the separatist. Why would you otherwise shoot down a plane leaving your country? I mean they had plenty of time stopping the plane all along the way over their country.
Anyway I don't like those conspiracy theories (leave them to Kat to explain it to us), so the mistake is the most plausible explanation so far.
"Wer Visionen hat, sollte zum Arzt gehen." - Helmut Schmidt
For a downing, but more planes were shot down today I think.
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