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Thread: Should Gaza's civil servants be paid in old gumdrops?

  1. #1

    Default Should Gaza's civil servants be paid in old gumdrops?

    The title is unnecessarily provocative, the "facts" (such as they are in this sort of situation) may be debated, and the contribution (if there is any) of the salary issue to the present escalation may not be as great as the analyst believes, but the suggestion at the end is, I think, an interesting one for when the dust settles and Israel once again emerges triumphant.

    Are we willing to accept some of the risk that may come with paying people their salaries or would that be like not bombing rocket-launching Hamasified hospitals? We could pay them in expired gumdrops that can be traded for food, water and batteries.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/op...west.html?_r=0

    JERUSALEM — AS Hamas fires rockets at Israeli cities and Israel follows up its extensive airstrikes with a ground operation in the Gaza Strip, the most immediate cause of this latest war has been ignored: Israel and much of the international community placed a prohibitive set of obstacles in the way of the Palestinian “national consensus” government that was formed in early June.

    That government was created largely because of Hamas’s desperation and isolation. The group’s alliance with Syria and Iran was in shambles. Its affiliation with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt became a liability after a July 2013 coup replaced an ally, President Mohamed Morsi, with a bitter adversary, Gen. Abdel Fattah el-Sisi. Hamas’s coffers dried up as General Sisi closed the tunnels that had brought to Gaza the goods and tax revenues on which it depended.

    Seeing a region swept by popular protests against leaders who couldn’t provide for their citizens’ basic needs, Hamas opted to give up official control of Gaza rather than risk being overthrown. Despite having won the last elections, in 2006, Hamas decided to transfer formal authority to the Palestinian leadership in Ramallah. That decision led to a reconciliation agreement between Hamas and the Palestine Liberation Organization, on terms set almost entirely by the P.L.O. chairman and Palestinian Authority president, Mahmoud Abbas.

    Israel immediately sought to undermine the reconciliation agreement by preventing Hamas leaders and Gaza residents from obtaining the two most essential benefits of the deal: the payment of salaries to 43,000 civil servants who worked for the Hamas government and continue to administer Gaza under the new one, and the easing of the suffocating border closures imposed by Israel and Egypt that bar most Gazans’ passage to the outside world.

    Yet, in many ways, the reconciliation government could have served Israel’s interests. It offered Hamas’s political adversaries a foothold in Gaza; it was formed without a single Hamas member; it retained the same Ramallah-based prime minister, deputy prime ministers, finance minister and foreign minister; and, most important, it pledged to comply with the three conditions for Western aid long demanded by America and its European allies: nonviolence, adherence to past agreements and recognition of Israel.

    Israel strongly opposed American recognition of the new government, however, and sought to isolate it internationally, seeing any small step toward Palestinian unity as a threat. Israel’s security establishment objects to the strengthening of West Bank-Gaza ties, lest Hamas raise its head in the West Bank. And Israelis who oppose a two-state solution understand that a unified Palestinian leadership is a prerequisite for any lasting peace.

    Still, despite its opposition to the reconciliation agreement, Israel continued to transfer the tax revenues it collects on the Palestinian Authority’s behalf, and to work closely with the new government, especially on security cooperation.

    But the key issues of paying Gaza’s civil servants and opening the border with Egypt were left to fester. The new government’s ostensible supporters, especially the United States and Europe, could have pushed Egypt to ease border restrictions, thereby demonstrating to Gazans that Hamas rule had been the cause of their isolation and impoverishment. But they did not.

    Instead, after Hamas transferred authority to a government of pro-Western technocrats, life in Gaza became worse.

    Qatar had offered to pay Gaza’s 43,000 civil servants, and America and Europe could have helped facilitate that. But Washington warned that American law prohibited any entity delivering payment to even one of those employees — many thousands of whom are not members of Hamas but all of whom are considered by American law to have received material support from a terrorist organization.


    When a United Nations envoy offered to resolve this crisis by delivering the salaries through the United Nations, so as to exclude all parties from legal liability, the Obama administration did not assist. Instead, it stood by as Israel’s foreign minister, Avigdor Lieberman, called for the envoy’s expulsion on the grounds that he was “trying to funnel money” to Hamas.

    Hamas is now seeking through violence what it couldn’t obtain through a peaceful handover of responsibilities. Israel is pursuing a return to the status quo ante, when Gaza had electricity for barely eight hours a day, water was undrinkable, sewage was dumped in the sea, fuel shortages caused sanitation plants to shut down and waste sometimes floated in the streets. Patients needing medical care couldn’t reach Egyptian hospitals, and Gazans paid $3,000 bribes for a chance to exit when Egypt chose to open the border crossing.

    For many Gazans, and not just Hamas supporters, it’s worth risking more bombardment and now the ground incursion, for a chance to change that unacceptable status quo. A cease-fire that fails to resolve the salary crisis and open Gaza’s border with Egypt will not last. It is unsustainable for Gaza to remain cut off from the world and administered by employees working without pay. A more generous cease-fire, though politically difficult for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, would be more durable.

    The current escalation in Gaza is a direct result of the choice by Israel and the West to obstruct the implementation of the April 2014 Palestinian reconciliation agreement. The road out of the crisis is a reversal of that policy.

    Nathan Thrall is a senior analyst at the International Crisis Group covering Gaza, Israel, Jordan and the West Bank.
    Last edited by Aimless; 07-30-2014 at 08:56 PM.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  2. #2
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #3
    I'm failing to see how Israel would benefit from helping Hamas run Gaza. What am I missing?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4
    It's the last thing they would be expecting! Fuck with their minds, man.
    The light that once I thought compassion still casting shadows in your action
    The words you shared were cold transactions that bring me to curse what you've done
    When you're up there absorbed in greatness with such success you've grown complacent
    I hope you scorch your many faces when you fly too close to the sun

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm failing to see how Israel would benefit from helping Hamas run Gaza. What am I missing?
    You're missing the fact that Hamas isn't the only entity that's trying to make Palestinian lives better. But Israel is definitely making their lives worse....which makes any "effort" even more complicated.

  6. #6
    Your initial premise is wrong.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Your initial premise is wrong.
    How so?

  8. #8
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    Loki clearly is one of those people who doesn't believe in 'where you stand is where you sit'. In this setting that means that Hamas is evil incarnate no matter in what role you cast it.

    Funny how people like Loki manage to make me feel like Hamas needs defending.
    Congratulations America

  9. #9
    Hamas' main goal is the destruction of Israel, not the improving of the lives of the Palestinians (except in the very narrow sense of getting them more land). They've had plenty of time to prove otherwise.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm failing to see how Israel would benefit from helping Hamas run Gaza.
    Well, for starters, Gaza would actually be run. Hamas is not officially in power. Just over 40,000 civil servants (formerly paid by Hamas), their dependents and everyone doing business with them would suddenly find they have better lives under the new regime even without Hamas officially being in power, undermining the support Hamas has for its more violent shenanigans.

    Do you believe the 40k government administrators and other civil servants are, for the most part, terrorists? If you had to come up with a number, what portion of their salaries do you think would go towards Hamas's military activities rather than towards things like food, electricity, gas, medical care etc? How much would taking that risk cost Israel in the medium-to-long term after it has successfully destroyed all of Hamas's hospitals rockets and removed their tunnels?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  11. #11
    Have you not noticed that de dacto rule is just as effective as de jure rule? What difference does it make who's officially in power if Hamas troops have a near monopoly on the use of force in Gaza (and the only exceptions belong to groups that are even worse than Hamas)?

    I have nothing against most of those workers. I'm debunking your argument that Israel somehow benefits from helping Gaza. Any improvement in the lives of Gazans will be attributed to Hamas and "resistance". That means the PA gets further discredited, increasing the chance for a pro-Hamas uprising in the West Bank. Is that a good outcome for you?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  12. #12
    Well it sure will now, now that it's come to another episode of violent "resistance"

    If Israel does not benefit at all, ever, from helping Gaza, am I to understand that your recommendation instead is to destroy Gaza? Kill them all?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  13. #13
    You mean it didn't in the years between the fighting?

    Israel benefits in helping Gaza once Gaza is not run by Hamas. And there's a difference between positive and negative harm. It's immoral for Israel to actively harm the Gazans. But there's nothing immoral about not helping them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The title is unnecessarily provocative, the "facts" (such as they are in this sort of situation) may be debated, and the contribution (if there is any) of the salary issue to the present escalation may not be as great as the analyst believes, but the suggestion at the end is, I think, an interesting one for when the dust settles and Israel once again emerges triumphant.

    Are we willing to accept some of the risk that may come with paying people their salaries or would that be like not bombing rocket-launching Hamasified hospitals? We could pay them in expired gumdrops that can be traded for food, water and batteries.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/18/op...west.html?_r=0
    There are some 70k PA civil servants in Gaza who are paid, by PA funds that come from a combination of customs duties transferred to the PA by Israel and international aid. They have been paid to stay home ever since the Hamas-led coup in 2006 that ousted the Fatah-controlled PA from the Gaza Strip. Hamas then developed a parallel administration (after refusing to work with Fatah) but has had trouble paying for them because they as an organization are terrorists committed to the destruction of their neighbors by any means necessary. As you can imagine, funding for their entirely superfluous civil administration has been limited to the likes of Qatar.

    As it is, the Palestinian civil service is absurdly bloated and corrupt, even before you get to Kafkaesque stories like 70,000 workers being paid to stay home while another 40,000 carry out some of their jobs but don't get paid. I see no reason for Israel to get involved in such a mess; I certainly see no reason for Israel to hand Hamas a gift that would allow them to act independently of their more moderate brethren.

    We've already seen ostensibly 'humanitarian' aid to Gaza being redirected to violent activities on a massive scale. I see no reason why we should make matters worse by giving them cold, hard cash.


    On the broader issue of the unity government in your NYTimes piece. The column was flawed, but I do think there's an interesting debate to be had about whether Israel should engage with a Fatah-Hamas unity government. On the one hand, Hamas falls far short of the three 'conditions' for engagement put forth by the Quartet et al (even if the 'government' says they agree to it, when one of the two members in said government disagrees on all three points, it's a bit hard to parse what they mean by 'agree'). In the absence of any sign of Hamas being reasonable, it's very challenging for Israel to believe they have an honest party on the opposite side (in contrast, Israeli and PLO negotiators, while disagreeing on conditions vehemently at times, have developed a certain rapport - ditto for Israeli and PA security personnel). It's also very politically challenging.

    That being said, I read a fascinating account - I believe in the New Republic? - about the breakdown in Kerry's peace talks last April (which directly preceded the unity government). While it seems clear there were a lot of missteps on all sides, it does seem to me like they were a bit of a sham for the simple reason that any deal would not have been able to ensure quiet on Israel's southern border. Either Hamas needs to be replaced by Fatah - forcibly, if necessary - or they need to be tamed somehow. I don't know if the unity government was the right idea, but it might be better than the alternatives. Hamas was clearly reeling and got a bum deal, so it's certainly possible that it was the best 'bad' deal Israel could have expected. Even so, though, I still understand their hesitancy about engaging with an organization that is still committed to their utter destruction.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Well, for starters, Gaza would actually be run. Hamas is not officially in power. Just over 40,000 civil servants (formerly paid by Hamas), their dependents and everyone doing business with them would suddenly find they have better lives under the new regime even without Hamas officially being in power, undermining the support Hamas has for its more violent shenanigans.
    I find this naive in the extreme. Hamas will absolutely get credit if their parallel civil service is legitimized.

    Do you believe the 40k government administrators and other civil servants are, for the most part, terrorists? If you had to come up with a number, what portion of their salaries do you think would go towards Hamas's military activities rather than towards things like food, electricity, gas, medical care etc? How much would taking that risk cost Israel in the medium-to-long term after it has successfully destroyed all of Hamas's hospitals rockets and removed their tunnels?
    I have precious little sympathy for this argument. Gaza has had multiple opportunities for peaceful development. First, after the handover of almost the entire Strip to PA control in the Jericho agreement in 1994. Second and much more comprehensively, after the disengagement in 2005. In the first case, Palestinian workers had the opportunity to work in Israel and dramatically improve their living circumstances. This ended with the intifada and increasing suicide bombings coming from Gaza and Area A/B of the West Bank. Second, after disengagement Israel handed over greenhouses worth a good $15 million to the PA (which were then destroyed by 'joyful' mobs); Israel pledged to slowly open borders to increasing trade and economic links, and even explored the idea of a joint industrial zone at the Gaza/Egypt/Israel border (the previous joint Israel/Gaza industrial zone, in Erez, had been shutdown after repeated terrorist attacks - costing 30,000 high paying Palestinian jobs). All of this ended after the fratricidal coup in 2006 and the increased tempo of cross-border attacks. Israel couldn't leave border crossings in the hands of an organization committed to destroying Israeli communities and killing Israeli citizens - especially when they had openly boasted of their interest in bringing more sophisticated weapons into the Strip to kill more 'Zionists'.

    Time and time again the people of Gaza have been given opportunities to turn away from violence and embrace economic opportunity. They're in an incredibly good position - they are situated next to the most sophisticated and vibrant economy in the entire region, many of them still know Hebrew, and Israel always needs workers in 'immigrant' jobs (currently filled by Thais and Filipinos, but used to be filled by Palestinians working up the value chain). They even could have explored teaming up with Israeli energy companies to exploit their offshore gas and oil resources. Instead, they've rejected economic development time and time again with ruinous violence. They've redirected international aid (like the building materials they claim to need to badly) for continuing violent attacks against Israel, and have refused even in principle a peaceful solution. I see no reason why Israel should extend a hand again for 'economic development'. Gaza needs to get its house in order before they should expect any further help. That almost certainly includes getting rid of Hamas, or a massive change in how the organization functions.
    Last edited by wiggin; 07-31-2014 at 04:32 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You mean it didn't in the years between the fighting?

    Israel benefits in helping Gaza once Gaza is not run by Hamas. And there's a difference between positive and negative harm. It's immoral for Israel to actively harm the Gazans. But there's nothing immoral about not helping them.
    I'm surprised you bring up morality given the debatable moral (as well as legal) status of eg. the blockade, the large number of civilian casualties, the destruction of civilian infrastructure etc. To pretend that these things are either morally neutral or clearly and unambiguously positive is disingenuous to say the least. Clearly neither Israel nor its supporters, including yourself--and, on leap-days, even myself--are principally opposed to causing harm regardless of whether it is positive or negative and that you choose to draw the line at wholesale destruction isn't particularly interesting. I can't help but wonder what is the morally appropriate way to make reparations for positive harm but I don't think discussing the morality of any aspect of this conflict--past or present--will be fruitful.

    My question is not about morality. Rather, it is about what is in the long-term interests of the Israeli state--or at least its present government--as well as in the interest of a lasting peace, in light of your claims.

    Let's say Israel's only wish for Christmas is a Gaza that is not run by Hamas. If Israel continues in this fashion, will it help bring about a Gaza free from Hamas and its ilk, ie. a future in which "Gaza is not run by Hamas" and in which Israel will benefit from helping Gaza? Will it then come to the negotiating table and work towards a long-term solution that may culminate in a sovereign Palestinian state?

    Is there any chance that Israel's actions (or inactions you prefer) may instead ensure many more years of support for Hamas or even worse groups along with far more humanitarian suffering?



    As I see it, you may as well be saying this:

    Israel helps Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel non-helps Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel indirectly harms Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel directly harms Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    What do you believe is a plausible alternative course of action or inaction that doesn't lead to Israel's or Gaza's annihilation but rather to a lasting peace? Because, if there is none, maybe it is in Israel's best interests to just destroy Gaza and be done with it. That way at least one side benefits thoroughly while the other side will no longer be around to be harmed.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  16. #16
    There is no course of action that will lead to lasting peace. We'll all be long dead before the situation changes sufficiently for peace to be remotely possible. Virtually every single factor that causes conflict is present, while virtually no factor that produces peace is present. You're being incredibly naive if you think that changing a few of those factors will magically increase the chance of peace from 0% to 51% (or 10% for that matter).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    I'm surprised you bring up morality given the debatable moral (as well as legal) status of eg. the blockade, the large number of civilian casualties, the destruction of civilian infrastructure etc. To pretend that these things are either morally neutral or clearly and unambiguously positive is disingenuous to say the least. Clearly neither Israel nor its supporters, including yourself--and, on leap-days, even myself--are principally opposed to causing harm regardless of whether it is positive or negative and that you choose to draw the line at wholesale destruction isn't particularly interesting. I can't help but wonder what is the morally appropriate way to make reparations for positive harm but I don't think discussing the morality of any aspect of this conflict--past or present--will be fruitful.
    On the question of morals, Israelis are indeed exercised by this. That's why, even in the middle of a war Israel provides fuel, power, medical supplies, food, and even medical care to Palestinians in Gaza. My reading of the Israeli attitude is that they have a responsibility to keep Gaza from starving to death... but beyond basic necessities, they don't feel at all exercised about the situation for reasons detailed in my previous post. The blockade is certainly legal, and they do their best to make it moral as well.

    This isn't to say that life in Gaza is good. Far from it. Rather, it's to say that Israel works hard to keep Gaza from falling into a full-blown humanitarian crisis while keeping up the pressure on Hamas from a blockade. And, frankly, it appears to have worked.

    My question is not about morality. Rather, it is about what is in the long-term interests of the Israeli state--or at least its present government--as well as in the interest of a lasting peace, in light of your claims.

    Let's say Israel's only wish for Christmas is a Gaza that is not run by Hamas. If Israel continues in this fashion, will it help bring about a Gaza free from Hamas and its ilk, ie. a future in which "Gaza is not run by Hamas" and in which Israel will benefit from helping Gaza? Will it then come to the negotiating table and work towards a long-term solution that may culminate in a sovereign Palestinian state?

    Is there any chance that Israel's actions (or inactions you prefer) may instead ensure many more years of support for Hamas or even worse groups along with far more humanitarian suffering?



    As I see it, you may as well be saying this:

    Israel helps Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel non-helps Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel indirectly harms Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel directly harms Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    What do you believe is a plausible alternative course of action or inaction that doesn't lead to Israel's or Gaza's annihilation but rather to a lasting peace? Because, if there is none, maybe it is in Israel's best interests to just destroy Gaza and be done with it. That way at least one side benefits thoroughly while the other side will no longer be around to be harmed.
    Israel's strategic logic is that Hamas can't be toppled from the outside (or, rather, it can't be toppled from outside and replaced by anything better). They also can't be ignored for the simple reason that they're continually working up clever new ways to kill Jews. So how to handle them? Most of the time, they work to put pressure - but not unbearable pressure - on Gaza and Hamas. They limit Hamas' ability to pay their people, they cut down on smuggling of weapons and other goods, they isolate Gaza as much as possible. Meanwhile, they try to keep the people of Gaza from exploding by keeping them fed/etc. At the same time, the work with Fatah to provide a reasonable alternative - West Bank economic activity has done a lot better than Gaza for obvious reasons, and the PA has a lot more money to work with. Then, they leave things up to the people in Gaza.

    I don't know if they are striking the right balance here. I suspect that too strong of a partnership with Fatah would make Fatah lose, rather than gain, support - but at the same time handing Fatah some prominent victories (such as prisoner releases, limitations on settlement building, framework agreements) would probably help them more. I also wonder if they're managing the right balance of pressure on Hamas and Gaza. But their underlying logic is not too bad given the shit salad they're dealing with. Hamas tries to turn every situation into a 'victory' for the 'resistance', and their propaganda doesn't do a half-bad job of making such a case. Yet the Palestinian people aren't completely fooled either; they see how their life under Hamas rule has deteriorated, and I suspect many of them would like a more moderate government (or at least one that doesn't start a war with a vastly superior enemy every few years).

    Change in Gaza can only come from within, and it's going to take a long time. But Israel can at least nudge it along by keeping Hamas on the ropes.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Well, for starters, Gaza would actually be run. Hamas is not officially in power. Just over 40,000 civil servants (formerly paid by Hamas), their dependents and everyone doing business with them would suddenly find they have better lives under the new regime even without Hamas officially being in power, undermining the support Hamas has for its more violent shenanigans.

    Do you believe the 40k government administrators and other civil servants are, for the most part, terrorists?
    No.

    If you had to come up with a number, what portion of their salaries do you think would go towards Hamas's military activities rather than towards things like food, electricity, gas, medical care etc?
    My guess is 15-20%, (more if they actually get paid well) if it comes from outside sources, and the diversion to Hamas is often not truly voluntary.

    And not paying them in currency would not help matters. At best you'd end up with something like forced bartering of vouchers for cash. If it's particularly hard to barter, people making real use of any voucher system will be threatened and hurt. Groups like Hamas have had plenty of time to learn how to control the population they're operating in.

    And before you say anything, Israel absolutely does not help matters. Which is why I say "a pox on both their houses." But an Israel that doesn't act this way probably would not make a significant difference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    As I see it, you may as well be saying this:

    Israel helps Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel non-helps Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel indirectly harms Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    Israel directly harms Gaza --> support for Hamas increases --> Israel is destroyed

    What do you believe is a plausible alternative course of action or inaction that doesn't lead to Israel's or Gaza's annihilation but rather to a lasting peace? Because, if there is none, maybe it is in Israel's best interests to just destroy Gaza and be done with it. That way at least one side benefits thoroughly while the other side will no longer be around to be harmed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    There is no course of action that will lead to lasting peace. We'll all be long dead before the situation changes sufficiently for peace to be remotely possible. Virtually every single factor that causes conflict is present, while virtually no factor that produces peace is present. You're being incredibly naive if you think that changing a few of those factors will magically increase the chance of peace from 0% to 51% (or 10% for that matter).
    These two situations are largely correct (not in the Israel is destroyed conclusion but Israel's relationship with the area, its people, or their leaders does not improve or gets worse with each of those). Conflict is not an area where it takes two to tango. It only takes one. And both sides, even if many want peace, are inescapable leashed to extremists who don't, at least not on any realistically possible terms. And no, destroying Gaza wouldn't improve the Israeli position because the reaction to that would be worse.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  19. #19
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    I'm sick about Hamas defenders that bombard us with pictures of dead people and destroyed buildings as with Israel defenders telling us how 'minimalistic' the actual attack is and how wonderfully Israel follows up the shooting with humanitarian aid.

    Both sides are just a bunch of pricks who think that denying the other's existence is going to make them magically disappear and who would like the rest of the world believe that merely listening to eachother is a major concession nobody can expect of them. Both sides have chosen to be led by extremists.
    Congratulations America

  20. #20
    Netanyahu is actually at the center on this issue.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  21. #21
    ... and he represents a broad consensus in Israeli politics. The media portray him as a right wing thug, and while he has such in his government (Lieberman for sure, Bennet et al are more neocons than thugs), his position is much more pragmatic and representative of a strong center-right consensus that has developed on security/Palestinian issues.

    Regardless, I think that Hazir is right that there are unreasonable people on both sides. I just think that the really unreasonable nutjobs in Israel get locked up and have minimal political representation, while the really unreasonable extremists among the Palestinians are running the Gaza Strip. When you get broad majorities on Palestinians supporting targeting of civilians (and overwhelming majorities of Israelis rejecting the same), I think you have to approach the conflict with a bit of realism.

  22. #22
    Incidentally, the Gazans did vote Hamas in reasonably free and fair elections (even if Hamas probably doesn't win those elections today). You get what you pay for.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
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    And that proves what ? That everything is roses because extremism is the new normal in Israel ?

    I also don't see Avigdor Lieberman in prison, which he could indeed have landed up in in many countries that consider themselves still friendly towards Israel.

    What I do see is that Israel has managed to become a part of the Middle East like any other, now imagine a real sarcastic tone when I wish them good luck with that.
    Last edited by Hazir; 08-01-2014 at 06:50 AM.
    Congratulations America

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Incidentally, the Gazans did vote Hamas in reasonably free and fair elections (even if Hamas probably doesn't win those elections today). You get what you pay for.
    Those elections were 8 years ago, how long was their tenure for?

    Incidentally the Northern Irish Catholics have repeatedly voted for Sinn Fein (formed as political wing of the IRA).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    ℬeing upset is understandable, but be upset at yourself for poor planning, not at the world by acting like a spoiled bitch during an interview.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    And that proves what ? That everything is roses because extremism is the new normal in Israel ?

    I also don't see Avigdor Lieberman in prison, which he could indeed have landed up in in many countries that consider themselves still friendly towards Israel.

    What I do see is that Israel has managed to become a part of the Middle East like any other, now imagine a real sarcastic tone when I wish them good luck with that.
    No, my point is that extremism isn't the new normal in Israel. Netanyahu commands such a broad consensus because his position is pragmatic but not crazy. Israelis by and large don't trust Palestinians one bit, and have focused on 'conflict management' rather than a peace agreement they see as untenable with the current Palestinian leadership and polis. That doesn't make them extremist, just pessimistic.

    Re: Lieberman, I said he was a right wing thug, not a murderer; his rhetoric is tame compared to that of the Arab Israeli parties in the Knesset... and the reason he's not locked up for his opinions is because of this thing called free speech (which apparently some of Israel's friends could learn about). In contrast, Israeli terrorists are hunted down and locked up within days of an attack - witness the successful apprehension and aggressive prosecution of Mohammad Abu Khdeir's murderers. In Palestinian areas, they get streets named after them, parades in their honor (when they are released from Israeli prison), and pensions. They're certainly not tracked down and imprisoned by Palestinian security forces. These murderers and the people who send them on their attacks are running the government of Gaza. This is not hyperbole, but reality. If you can't see a difference between that and Israel's vibrant (if rambunctious) democracy, then I don't know why I'm even bothering.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Those elections were 8 years ago, how long was their tenure for?
    A government was never formed - Fatah and Hamas couldn't agree to terms for sharing power in the PLC; meanwhile, half of Hamas' newly elected 'parlimentarians' were detained by Israel after the cross-border raid that killed several soldiers and abducted Gilad Shalit. By the middle of 2007, a newly formed (illegal) 'security force' in Gaza took over control of the civil service and ousted Fatah in a brief fratricidal war. (BTW I believe in this thread or another I mistakenly said that war was in 2006; apologies). The PLC mandate is long gone - as is Mahmoud Abbas' mandate as President - but in the absence of any reconciliation between Gaza and the WB it's unlikely to change with fresh elections. The unity government was supposed to lead to elections 'eventually', but who knows when that will be.



    In other news, don't expect this to end any time soon! Hamas attacked Israeli forces through a tunnel about 90 minutes into the 3-day 'humanitarian truce', killing two soldiers and abducting a third - possibly alive. IDF forces are moving into Rafah and trying to cut it off from the rest of the Strip and Egypt, conducting house-to-house searches. The ceasefire is very dead, and I expect the death toll to spike dramatically in the coming days. Just yesterday Israeli media and strategists were mulling over a unilateral withdrawal once the remaining tunnels were destroyed in their 'buffer zone' in a couple days, leaving Hamas with little choice on a cease fire (and little striking power at any rate). That hope is almost certainly gone now.

  26. #26
    And the Palestinian people are celebrating. Go them.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    To be fair, this is certainly a coup for Hamas. This is exactly what they needed to declare 'victory'. They may have lost 2/3 of their weapons, hundreds of operatives, most of their offensive tunnels, and quite a bit of infrastructure (not to mention the civilian toll), but to them a single abduction is a victory.

  28. #28
    This also completely rules out any chance of this conflict ending soon. Hundreds will die as a result.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    I think the cabinet is still weighing their options, but you're probably right.

  30. #30
    WILL THE ZIOBANKERS CHARGE A MARKUP IN THE COMMERCIAL PAPER MARKET FOR PA SLUSH FUNDS.

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