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Thread: The Government Debt Train Nudges Closer To Collision

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I've made suggestions clear in the past in threads that you posted in. But my larger point is we should abandon universal health care and stop thinking that it works in budget terms. We should strive for policy solutions make health care affordable in most circumstances to most people without nationalizing the whole damn thing.
    #1 - This is not nationalizing anything, unfortunately. #2. It can and will work if we decide to make it work. Priorities.

    But more importantly, didn't you notice in the opening post that Germany also got a debt warning? Pretty much all of the major industrialized nations except Japan and Australia are overleveraged. I was reading a copy of Institutional Investor on the subway yesterday and saw a full page ad for French debt. Seriously, our budgets have been blown out of whack.
    Have you considered the reason those nations are having debt problems has more to do with the on-going Mega-Recession than with their health care systems? You take a snapshot of their fiscal situation in the most desperate of times and conclude they can't have universal health care? Wow. Lets start with a conclusion and make the evidence fit!

    The amazing thing is people don't seem to be able to accept this. We don't have the income, and we don't have the capacity for another trillion dollars of debt.
    The amazing thing is how you've swallowed the conservative propaganda hook line and sinker, trying and hoping to be defeated before you start. Why don't you start with the conclusion that YES, universal health care is the humane and compassion thing to do, YES it is a basic human right, YES we must make it work and we are starting HERE and NOW. Then move on to yeah, America's health care system is spending TONS of money it doesn't need to spend and the next step in making it all work for all our citizens is to find ways to stop doing that. Then that money that was wasted on things that didn't need to be done, and all the people who did that unnecessary work, can now be re-position for making the universal part of our new and improved health care system work for everybody. Yay!

    If you start with - oh nos, we can'ts afford to change this, it costs too much, taking away peoples money is wrong, the market will fix it so we just need to sit back and do nothing, lets stop before we start and keep on the wrong path forever! Then you lose. The first step is to take a step.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    (again in an arguably unconstitutional or at least unethical way, we'll have to see) .
    Bills have been passed this way time and again. To claim this is extraordinary is to again parrot conservative talking points.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  2. #92
    The healthcare debate is raging in the Land of Singles as well!!

    There, there are steps but no dollars
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    The healthcare debate is raging in the Land of Singles as well!!

    There, there are steps but no dollars
    Recruiting for your spam fest? I'm in.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  4. #94
    Source: Bulletins written by Nancy-Ann DeParle. Director, White House Office of Health Reform.

    9 -- that's number of states and the District of Columbia where there is still no specific law that makes it illegal for insurers to reject applicants who are survivors of domestic violence by citing the history of domestic violence as a pre-existing condition.1
    Unfortunately, the gender inequalities across our broken heath care system don't end there. In many states, insurance companies can still discriminate on the basis of gender -- charging women higher premiums than men simply because of their gender or denying coverage because of so-called "pre-existing conditions" like being pregnant, experiencing a prior pregnancy complication, or having undergone a C-section. And health plans in the individual market often do not cover basic maternity care.

    50/50 If you’re an American under the age of 65, there's roughly a 50/50 chance that you will find yourself without coverage at some point in the next decade.1
    Simply put, losing insurance can happen to anyone.
    At yesterday's health reform event, President Obama told the story of Natoma, a self-employed woman in Ohio who found herself in the position of losing her health insurance after yet another rate hike from her insurance company:

    "She realized that if she paid those health insurance premiums that had been jacked up by 40 percent … she couldn't make ends meet. So January was her last month of being insured. Like so many responsible Americans -- folks who work hard every day, who try to do the right thing -- she was forced to hang her fortunes on chance... And on Saturday, Natoma was diagnosed with leukemia…
    "Part of what makes this issue difficult is most of us do have health insurance, we still do.... But what we have to understand is that what's happened to Natoma, there but for the grace of God go any one of us."

    For Natoma and the millions of other Americans forced to face the burden of medical bills they can't pay while at their most vulnerable.

    1 -- in every six dollars in the U.S. economy is spent on health care today.1
    If we do nothing, in 30 years, 1 out of every three dollars in our economy will be tied up in the health care system.2
    Skyrocketing health care costs aren't just crippling the U.S. economy -- they're emptying the pocketbooks of American families. If we do not enact health insurance reform, individual and family spending on premiums and out-of-pocket health care costs could increase 79 percent in just 10 years.

    41 -- is also the percentage of adults under the age of 65 who accumulated medical debt, had difficulty paying medical bills, or struggled with both during a recent one-year period.

    625 -- that's the number of people who lost their health insurance every hour in 2009.1
    A statistic like that tells a frightening story -- losing insurance can happen to anyone. How many more Americans have to lose their health insurance and how many more businesses have to drop coverage before we fix our broken health care system?

    8 -- that's the number of people every minute who are denied coverage, charged a higher rate or otherwise discriminated against because of a pre-existing condition.1
    8 is also the number of lobbyists hired by special interests to influence health reform for every member of Congress in 2009.

    $1,115 -- that's the average monthly premium for employer-sponsored family coverage in 2009. Annually, that amounts to $13,375, or roughly the yearly income of someone working a minimum wage job.1
    It gets worse: a recent survey found that if we do nothing, over the next ten years, out-of-pocket expenses for Americans with health insurance could increase 35 percent in every state in the country.

    3 million -- that's the decrease in the number of middle-income earners who obtained health insurance from their employers from 2000 to 2008.1
    And 3 times -- is how much faster health care premiums are rising compared to wages.2
    While our broken health care system is hurting everyone, it's the middle class that's feeling it the most. A report just out from the non-partisan Robert Wood Johnson Foundation shows that the middle class became uninsured at a faster pace than those with less or more income.
    Last edited by ar81; 03-18-2010 at 06:38 PM.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  5. #95
    In many states, insurance companies can still discriminate on the basis of gender -- charging women higher premiums than men simply because of their gender or denying coverage because of so-called "pre-existing conditions" like being pregnant, experiencing a prior pregnancy complication, or having undergone a C-section.
    I can attest to that fact.

    It's not just insurance companies at fault for this, physicians share some "blame" as well. Takes us back thru the vicious cycle of CYA defensive medicine (when in doubt, do a c-section; once a c-section always a c-section), relying on high tech more often than needed (the mammogram debacle), and relying heavily on pharma for everything from acne to menopause (hormones).

    Big Pharma runs expensive tv ads, there's a pill for everything, and everyone wants it? I guess they figure the high costs of advertising are off-set by the millions more in consumer revenue, rush to the doc and ask for the latest Rx, they cave under pressure and pull out the script pad. What do they care, why does the patient care.....if they've got a script plan with $10 co-pay, "it's affordable".

    I'm rather sick and tired of paying full cost and inflated price, to cover the gap in coverage from other people's insurance plans. But that's the way this freeeee market seems to work.

  6. #96
    Why are we still discussing healthcare when Loki has already diagnosed us? Our problem is that we are JEALOUS
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  7. #97
    I don't know! I posted some factoids about other nations' debt and budget problems, it's not just the US.

    Maybe Dread just wanted to say Kill the Bill.


  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    No, the big picture is that you can't afford your present system, because it's wasteful and ineffective.
    Any national healthcare system NOW is going to be built on the present system. That is politically inevitable.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Any national healthcare system NOW is going to be built on the present system. That is politically inevitable.
    I'm surprised you're telling me, because you can't really deduct from what I said that I think you can start from a tabula rasa. It seems more like Dread doesn't quite get that; in this debate he's debating like the Randblade type 'europhile'. That means; he says he's in favor of something but sets the standards so high that everybody knows that's not going to happen.
    Congratulations America

  10. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Any national healthcare system NOW is going to be built on the present system. That is politically inevitable.
    That's our other problem. Everything is politically bipolar now. Instead of going on the assumption that things WILL change nationally, and figuring out how to proceed forward....one side says No, Stop. Some people don't want to change anything. Others are hung up on the process. For some it's their political future, making their fund raisers happy, or the lobbyists, or what they call "their base of voters".

    It's no wonder polls show an all-time low level of trust and satisfaction for our elected officials. I think they rate below used car salesmen now.

  11. #101
    Another problem with our politicians in this mess---if almost every state lists government and healthcare services as their top employers, and something like 40/50 states are broke with massive budget deficits, the thought of changing the status quo scares the bejeezus out of them.

    If healthcare services cut their fat, they have no idea where all those providers will find another job, and they'll eat up unemployment insurance. The first to go will be janitors and food services, then social services and personal care aides, the senior centers and para-transit. Granny will be in a nursing home or stuck at home, with no one to take care of her. Now the seniors are scared.

    Free clinics and subsidized clinics can't get funding, dialysis centers are shut down, "public hospitals" can barely keep their doors open. Where do these patients go now? Where do these employees go now? Struggling urban centers with a census of poor or near-poor don't have a local tax base, the ex-urban areas can't accommodate the influx. There's only so much you can do with property taxes, just ask the schools.

    If the government is trying to cut or furlough state employees, adding more makes no sense. Cutting their fat and redundancy begs the same question---where do all these laid off workers go to find work, when already 6 people are vying for every open position? Moving them all to the federal level just means more with a federal pension, and legacy costs. But legacy costs are part of that problem!

    The Easy Button was pushed. Big insurance, big pharma, big provider networks, and big employers won. And big voter blocs like AARP and seniors. There's no other employment niche to replace the Bigs, and employment taxes take care of the seniors.....so it will be made into a vast mess of bigger tentacles.

    Same thing happened on a micro level with Wall St and NYC. They need that revenue from taxes on the traders and speculators, the brokers and analysts, movers and shakers, Big Banks. Making them smaller, or more accountable and less risky, means taking away some of their profit. And no, Goldman Sachs won't continue doing God's work by helping fund free clinics. Setting up a non-profit charity is all they could muster. The rest will just have to "trickle down" to the maids, nannies, baristas, cabbies, and dog walkers.

  12. #102
    Current statu quo is making huge profits on the current system.
    They do not want change. Clinton tried in the past and failed.

    Go to Costa Rica, use its nationalized universal healthcare system, and you will see a difference.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by ar81 View Post
    Current statu quo is making huge profits on the current system.
    They do not want change. Clinton tried in the past and failed.

    Go to Costa Rica, use its nationalized universal healthcare system, and you will see a difference.
    No thanks, I hear Rush Limbaugh might live there.

    No offense AR, but why do you 'talk funny'? Maybe it's a language thing, but you sound like a robot or something.



    Anywho, it would be great if our supposed innovators and entrapaneurs, or our next productive niches were easier to identify. Either that or yeah, might be tons of Americans moving to China? They don't need any more cheap labor, so we could be left with a very skewed 2-tier society here.

  14. #104
    I am horribly asleep. Beep, beep.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I'm surprised you're telling me, because you can't really deduct from what I said that I think you can start from a tabula rasa. It seems more like Dread doesn't quite get that; in this debate he's debating like the Randblade type 'europhile'. That means; he says he's in favor of something but sets the standards so high that everybody knows that's not going to happen.
    Dread and I are mostly on the same page, though he seems more pessimistic about what might be possible in other situations than I am. I don't WANT the sort of reform being talked about in Washington, or by posters like Chaloobi, to happen right now. The fact that it must, inevitably be built on the present system is sufficient to oppose it.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Dread and I are mostly on the same page, though he seems more pessimistic about what might be possible in other situations than I am. I don't WANT the sort of reform being talked about in Washington, or by posters like Chaloobi, to happen right now. The fact that it must, inevitably be built on the present system is sufficient to oppose it.
    What kind of Reform do you want? Or are you too busy Reforming California that the union gets pushed aside?

  17. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Any national healthcare system NOW is going to be built on the present system. That is politically inevitable.
    It is also a foot in the door to centralized insurance regulation which, besides being beneficial to consumers, paves the way for true interstate competition. Do you think any reform will EVER be built completely outside of the present system?
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  18. #108
    My bet is that this government will achieve nothing.
    With nihilist republicans who only know how to say "NO" to everything and democrats who only know how to say "Wah!".
    US would go from one bubble to another, downhill.

    And perhaps in 15 or 20 years we may see US recovering from this crisis.
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  19. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Dread and I are mostly on the same page, though he seems more pessimistic about what might be possible in other situations than I am. I don't WANT the sort of reform being talked about in Washington, or by posters like Chaloobi, to happen right now. The fact that it must, inevitably be built on the present system is sufficient to oppose it.
    So that means that regardless of what you say otherwise you don't really want to change a broken system.
    Congratulations America

  20. #110
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So that means that regardless of what you say otherwise you don't really want to change a broken system.
    There's a lot of that going around lately. It's practically viral.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So that means that regardless of what you say otherwise you don't really want to change a broken system.
    I'm not sure which part of what Fuzzy said is difficult to understand, but how exactly is a system that's broken 2x units better than one that's broken x units?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  22. #112
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So that means that regardless of what you say otherwise you don't really want to change a broken system.
    It means that despite your protestations, you have a xenophobic disregard for anything that's not European.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  23. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I'm not sure which part of what Fuzzy said is difficult to understand, but how exactly is a system that's broken 2x units better than one that's broken x units?
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    It means that despite your protestations, you have a xenophobic disregard for anything that's not European.
    Okay. So where are the suggestions and ideas from you two? It's very easy to criticize or polarize. We are all really skilled that way.

    I don't recall either one of you proposing alternatives or better solutions.

  24. #114
    I am xenophobic towards Earthlings... I come from Mars...
    Freedom - When people learn to embrace criticism about politicians, since politicians are just employees like you and me.

  25. #115
    Renal Disease, Renal Failure. Sometimes congenital/inherited. Often secondary to other conditions like hypertension, or long term medication for other things that fries the kidneys. Maybe a temporary state from dehydration.

    I just watched a delayed broadcast of Keith Olberman's show, where he described his father's struggle, hallucinations, and ultimate demise. A very powerful and personal story, peppered with facts and other non-emotional things related to insurance and .....

    Jesus H Christ!

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Okay. So where are the suggestions and ideas from you two? It's very easy to criticize or polarize. We are all really skilled that way.

    I don't recall either one of you proposing alternatives or better solutions.
    I think that people who can't afford healthcare should be left to the grace of God. It's not anybody's fault those people can't get a job that provides benefits or pays enough that they can afford their own care. The solution is survival of the fittest; every man for himself.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  27. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I think that people who can't afford healthcare should be left to the grace of God. It's not anybody's fault those people can't get a job that provides benefits or pays enough that they can afford their own care. The solution is survival of the fittest; every man for himself.
    That is not funny or cute or clever. That sort of dark sarcasm does not translate over the web. Not at all.

    Are you a bot like AR?

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    That is not funny or cute or clever. That sort of dark sarcasm does not translate over the web. Not at all.

    Are you a bot like AR?
    It's actually a very common way of dealing with things. As long as I've got mine I'm not going to rock the boat. If people without jobs can't afford to live here maybe they should move to Canada.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  29. #119
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    It's actually a very common way of dealing with things. As long as I've got mine I'm not going to rock the boat. If people without jobs can't afford to live here maybe they should move to Canada.
    Sure, we all know that. The other mantra is "We can't afford this!" Well, I'm not buying that. Not for a minute. There are only a couple of posters so far who seem dead set against reform (no pun intended) but they're also the ones who've brought NO new ideas to the table.

    This has been brewing for years, decades even. Maybe it's because I can actually relate to this in real time, over time, whereas the younger members only know this from what they learned in middle school. Or what their parents said.

    If they're still in academia, it's still academic. If they're new to the work force, they are probably like all new workers and tax averse....wanting to hold onto their cash, trying to "get ahead". Maybe they haven't experienced our health system first-hand yet, other than to walk into their university clinic with a rash or sore throat. Perhaps they haven't had children yet, or taken care of elderly parents, or buried them yet, or even been critically ill themselves. So it's a theoretical problem, not a real one.

  30. #120
    So basically a solution that is based on a broken system is doomed to fail forever?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

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