Damn Stephen Hawking and the chair he rode in on...

[Being]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...8/ai_17223636/

That source doesn't state the density of clouds.

This one does,

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/DaWeiCai.shtml

"On average, the density of matter in the space between the 10^11 stars of the Milky Way is 0.1 neutral hydrogen atoms (H) per cubic centimeter."

[EyeKhan]

After Reading Only the OP and the first few Page 1 responses, I have 2 cents to share:

There's two problems with Hawkings warning:
#1. There are no resources here on Earth that are not plentiful practically everywhere else near and far. Except maybe our brand of life. I could make up a scifi story where something like that might be worth conquering for, but it would be a stretch.

#2. He assumes aliens will be like us in their behavior and in their resource needs. The latter is irrelevant per #1 above. The former is a serious mistake but it could go either way. Aliens could be murderous xenophobes. They could also have Jesus like compassion and empathy. Or they could have such different minds that we could never understand each other, which might turn out badly for us. Its impossible to know before you actually find aliens, and of course by then its probably too late.

So the sensible question becomes: Assuming any aliens we contact are vastly technologically superior to us, is it worth the risk to contact them or should we make an effort to hide? (Can anyone say Fermi Paradox Solution #7?)

Of course it does

[Ominous Gamer]

Hawking has never made a case to hide, he has always been a strong supporter of getting the hell off this rock.

"Life on Earth is at the ever-increasing risk of being wiped out by a disaster such as sudden global warming, nuclear war, a genetically engineered virus or other dangers ... I think the human race has no future if it doesn't go into space."

[CitizenCain]

That source doesn't state the density of clouds.

This one does,

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2000/DaWeiCai.shtml

So, clearly someone doesn't know what an average is. Anyone else wanna jump in and edumacate our poor communist?

So the sensible question becomes: Assuming any aliens we contact are vastly technologically superior to us, is it worth the risk to contact them or should we make an effort to hide? (Can anyone say Fermi Paradox Solution #7?)

And how would we go about hiding from a technologically superior, space faring race of aliens? I mean, there's only so much that running under the nearest tree will do to conceal us, you know.

Besides which, the warning doesn't mean we should hide or nuke any spaceship before it lands - it just means that should we be contacted by advanced alien life, we need to be careful about how we approach the situation, lest we meet the same fate as the Native Americans. For starters, we could not make the same mistake the Aztecs did, and welcome our future conquerors as gods (and make it easy for them to slaughter us, herd us onto reservations and steal all our gold tasty gravel).

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Well, how is he wrong?

“If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.”

Sounds airtight to me.

That's what environmental suits are supposed to be

anyways, Hawkings is taking you all for a ride at your expense. I can already hear his machine-laugh.

[Being]

So, clearly someone doesn't know what an average is.

How about you qualify that comment so I have something to respond to.

[EyeKhan]

Hawking has never made a case to hide, he has always been a strong supporter of getting the hell off this rock.

We can hide from aliens and still spread the eggs.

And how would we go about hiding from a technologically superior, space faring race of aliens? I mean, there's only so much that running under the nearest tree will do to conceal us, you know.

Besides which, the warning doesn't mean we should hide or nuke any spaceship before it lands - it just means that should we be contacted by advanced alien life, we need to be careful about how we approach the situation, lest we meet the same fate as the Native Americans. For starters, we could not make the same mistake the Aztecs did, and welcome our future conquerors as gods (and make it easy for them to slaughter us, herd us onto reservations and steal all our gold tasty gravel).

I'm starting to think 'hide' was a poor choice of words. First and foremost hiding would mean not attempting to contact any alien species we observe. For example, if SETI picks up some signal and we determine its of intelligent origin. Assuming its broadcast and not focussed at us, we would hide by not sending our own signal to the source. The second way to hide would be to not send out powerful signals of our own, both intentionally as has been done in the past, or inadvertantly via mass media. This is the kind of hiding I was thinking of.

The third and most extreme way would be to not leave our star system and go out exploring. That decision may have already been made for us due to distance, but if we really really wanted to, we could go despite that obstacle (IMO).

[Ominous Gamer]

The second way to hide would be to not send out powerful signals of our own,

What signals?

[Crowheart]

After Reading Only the OP and the first few Page 1 responses, I have 2 cents to share:

There's two problems with Hawkings warning:
#1. There are no resources here on Earth that are not plentiful practically everywhere else near and far. Except maybe our brand of life. I could make up a scifi story where something like that might be worth conquering for, but it would be a stretch.

How about slaves?
Can't mine those from gas clouds in space.

So the sensible question becomes: Assuming any aliens we contact are vastly technologically superior to us, is it worth the risk to contact them or should we make an effort to hide? (Can anyone say Fermi Paradox Solution #7?)

I'd say no. (not worth the risk)
Talk of FTL's and alternative mineral gathering sites are fun and all, but he wasn't speculating on what they might want, and it's not really relevant.
If a superior species contacts us, they are going to have a reason for doing so, and the odds of those reasons being purely to our benefit, are long odds indeed.

[EyeKhan]

What signals?

Intentional radio signals directed toward aliens. Or inadvertant signals from our radio and television communication.

Not sure what you mean by the pic. The lights of Earth arn't visible very far out. Certainly not from another star. The most likely way they would find us is our radio broadcasts. Or by looking at the shit we put in our atmosphere. That's a dead give away...

[Ominous Gamer]

whoosh

[EyeKhan]

How about slaves?
Can't mine those from gas clouds in space.

Robots would be much better slaves than humans could ever possibly be. And if you have the tech to travel betweent he stars to pic up slaves, it seems you'd have the tech to build a decent robot.

I'd say no. (not worth the risk)
Talk of FTL's and alternative mineral gathering sites are fun and all, but he wasn't speculating on what they might want, and it's not really relevant.
If a superior species contacts us, they are going to have a reason for doing so, and the odds of those reasons being purely to our benefit, are long odds indeed.

What they might want is key, though. And fun to speculate.

[EyeKhan]

whoosh

Well then explain yourself. Damn. I'm not smart enough to guess what you mean.

[Crowheart]

Yeah, it's fun to speculate.

But since we couldn't know what they want, we can only know they want something, and is that something going to be something that benefits us or hurts us?
As long as we're trapped on this planet with no room to maneuver, why risk the real possiblity of them wanting something we aren't going to want to give up?

[']['ear]

After Reading Only the OP and the first few Page 1 responses, I have 2 cents to share:

There's two problems with Hawkings warning:
#1. There are no resources here on Earth that are not plentiful practically everywhere else near and far.

Completely true. CHON is not exactly rare. This is just a B movie trope to justify teh evil aliens. Darwinism apparently being unsuitable.

Except maybe our brand of life.

They hate our way of life! W had it right all along!

As an aside, I wonder if a crazy religion could govern aliens. As you note, the natural resources angle is hogwash. But what if aliens had an equivalent of "God gave us dominion over the birds of the air, the fishes of the sea, and those butt ugly mudpeople of planet three of the qrtzp system?"

Given that every US president publicly professes a deep obedience to God, is this so far-fetched?

The former is a serious mistake but it could go either way. Aliens could be murderous xenophobes. They could also have Jesus like compassion and empathy. Or they could have such different minds that we could never understand each other, which might turn out badly for us. Its impossible to know before you actually find aliens, and of course by then its probably too late.

This I seriously disagree with. If we agree that any advanced species would have arisen out of the hundreds of millions of years crucible of evolution (and I for one insist on that as a premise), then they would likely be cutthroat, combative and self-serving, like us. And they would have been pulled forward by an exceptional couple of percent that have no control over policy, also like us (meaning that the large majority of the species would be relatively dim individuals who can't see beyond the end of the own junk). In fact, isn't this almost by definition? Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect those traits from any evolved organism? I'd be willing to grant that a "space baby" species might have become sophisticated enough to have moved past that, but would such a species really give a crap? It would be like us fussing over ants.

Or alternatively there's a high degree of competition with other latently psychopathic species before one reaches such enlightenment, in which case the cutthroat evolution never stops, and nobody ever moves beyond it, no matter how advanced they become.

Either way, it seems very likely that any species who would be remotely interested in us would likely be narsty SOBs. Unless they have some do-gooder liberals working against their economic interests, that is.

So the sensible question becomes: Assuming any aliens we contact are vastly technologically superior to us, is it worth the risk to contact them or should we make an effort to hide? (Can anyone say Fermi Paradox Solution #7?)

I'd say Hawking is spot on. Parsimony argues to be as conservative as possible with the existence of our species, and defer first contact as long as possible. Not cowering, but to avoid it as long as that doesn't interfere with our progress. Certainly don't seek it out.

And how would we go about hiding from a technologically superior, space faring race of aliens? I mean, there's only so much that running under the nearest tree will do to conceal us, you know.

EM. It is by orders of magnitude our biggest footprint in the universe.

Besides which, the warning doesn't mean we should hide or nuke any spaceship before it lands - it just means that should we be contacted by advanced alien life, we need to be careful about how we approach the situation, lest we meet the same fate as the Native Americans. For starters, we could not make the same mistake the Aztecs did, and welcome our future conquerors as gods (and make it easy for them to slaughter us, herd us onto reservations and steal all our gold tasty gravel).

Heh, totally agree. Like the gravel allusion.

[EyeKhan]

But since we couldn't know what they want, we can only know they want something, and is that something going to be something that benefits us or hurts us?
As long as we're trapped on this planet with no room to maneuver, why risk the real possiblity of them wanting something we aren't going to want to give up?

Why not? Because we might die? We're all going to die anyway. I say let's risk it. If they come and lay eggs in our chests, who cares? I'd rather die knowing than to quiver and hide in ignorance.

I read first contact novella where the aliens were broadcasting signals with designs to build teleporter gateways. The humans who got the signal built the gateway and through it came attacking hordes. The humans managed to close the gate right quick but the aliens at that point knew where they were and sent an attack fleet the hard way over decades of transit time. That story's obviously been done, but the rub was what they were looking for. The alien attackers were actually AIs built by an alien race that lived entirely in VR and were more or less immortal. The AIs would go out looking for other intelligent beings and download all the experiences of individuals from those species and send the information back so the VR aliens could live those experiences. Unfortunately with humans, the download process was to lop off our heads and disintegrate them.

[Crowheart]

Why not? Because we might die? We're all going to die anyway. I say let's risk it. If they come and lay eggs in our chests, who cares? I'd rather die knowing than to quiver and hide in ignorance.

Curiosity killed the cat, eh?
Personally, I'd happily live in ignorance to avoid having eggs laid in my chest, but hey, to each his own..

[EyeKhan]

They hate our way of life! W had it right all along!

What I meant was the way life works on our planet, the various complex chemicals and reactions that we use, etc. It might yeild something of value for aliens.

As an aside, I wonder if a crazy religion could govern aliens. As you note, the natural resources angle is hogwash. But what if aliens had an equivalent of "God gave us dominion over the birds of the air, the fishes of the sea, and those butt ugly mudpeople of planet three of the qrtzp system?"

I would not be surprised at all.

This I seriously disagree with. If we agree that any advanced species would have arisen out of the hundreds of millions of years crucible of evolution (and I for one insist on that as a premise), then they would likely be cutthroat, combative and self-serving, like us. And they would have been pulled forward by an exceptional couple of percent that have no control over policy, also like us (meaning that the large majority of the species would be relatively dim individuals who can't see beyond the end of the own junk). In fact, isn't this almost by definition? Wouldn't it be reasonable to expect those traits from any evolved organism? I'd be willing to grant that a "space baby" species might have become sophisticated enough to have moved past that, but would such a species really give a crap? It would be like us fussing over ants.

You have a dim view of humanity and I hope you're wrong.

It may be that any species that doesn't find a way to be less aggresive and/or individually selfish can never get much beyond the point of being able to self-destruct. After all its not at all certain our civilization will survive the next 100 years.

Either way, it seems very likely that any species who would be remotely interested in us would likely be narsty SOBs. Unless they have some do-gooder liberals working against their economic interests, that is.

It seems true communism might be viable. It isn't for humans because we're as fucked up as you say, but consider the ants. Something like 75% of insect biomass is ant and that's because their supreme cooperative abilities offer tremendous survival advantage. Intelligent beings with that kind of cooperative ability would not necessarily be insanely aggressive/ selfish.

[Unheard Of]

Also, any species advanced enough to have built a magical FTL drive will likely have mastered the technology of building habitats in space anyway, so why the need to conquer planets?

Fun?

[']['ear]

What I meant was the way life works on our planet, the various complex chemicals and reactions that we use, etc. It might yeild something of value for aliens.

Meh, I seriously doubt it. If that technologically advanced, presumably they'd have advanced biology and chemistry. After all, the new thing in medicinal chemistry to to program E. coli to synthesize drug precursors en masse. And thus instead of a 12 step synthesis with precursor A, you have a 6 step synthesis with precursor B. Much cheaper, higher profit margin. It's like what was done with humulin 25 years ago, but with multi-step engineering to get the biosynthetic pathway down.

I would not be surprised at all.

Ideological certitude is probably the single most dangerous invention of intelligence (well, maybe rationalization), and I can't imagine that it would be limited to humans. And no, this is not restricted to religion.

You have a dim view of humanity and I hope you're wrong.

Just a biologist. What baffles me is how somebody can understand evolution and think otherwise. See Nessie's Darwin quote. Pretty much nails it. And trust me, I've struggled long and hard to find something better. It just ain't there if you stick to the facts.

It may be that any species that doesn't find a way to be less aggresive and/or individually selfish can never get much beyond the point of being able to self-destruct. After all its not at all certain our civilization will survive the next 100 years.

Now that's a good point. One could consider it the advanced intelligence corollary of Darwinism: at a certain point, a successful intelligent species is too aggressive, and will inevitably destroy itself in one way or another. Even then Kzin could be considered an example.

But where is the bar set? Reasonable enough to escape self-annihilation does not mean reasonable enough to co-exist with another species. And consider "A mote in God's eye" and whether a different species could trust us enough. Only if they were vastly superior.

It seems true communism might be viable. It isn't for humans because we're as fucked up as you say, but consider the ants. Something like 75% of insect biomass is ant and that's because their supreme cooperative abilities offer tremendous survival advantage. Intelligent beings with that kind of cooperative ability would not necessarily be insanely aggressive/ selfish.

Sure, you could consider a communal system. Now, consider what ants do to other nests of the same species, much less other species. Darwinism still works, even if the unit is a community and not an individual. Consider what we do to other species. It is about 99% "what can I gain from this creature."


edit: that's right, two Niven allusions in the same post.

[Tempus Vernum]

Intelligent beings with that kind of cooperative ability would not necessarily be insanely aggressive/ selfish.

Or they might decide that, for the good of the galactic hive-mind/community, it would be better to annihilate those pesky individuals so they don't run around causing trouble.

[EyeKhan]

Meh, I seriously doubt it. If that technologically advanced, presumably they'd have advanced biology and chemistry. After all, the new thing in medicinal chemistry to to program E. coli to synthesize drug precursors en masse. And thus instead of a 12 step synthesis with precursor A, you have a 6 step synthesis with precursor B. Much cheaper, higher profit margin. It's like what was done with humulin 25 years ago, but with multi-step engineering to get the biosynthetic pathway down.

With this we don't know what we don't know. Consider if they were silicon based or something and didn't have a lot of experience with orgo. I don't know - chemistry seems so vast that there could easily be naturally occuring systems we could not imagine before seeing them in practice.

Just a biologist. What baffles me is how somebody can understand evolution and think otherwise. See Nessie's Darwin quote. Pretty much nails it. And trust me, I've struggled long and hard to find something better. It just ain't there if you stick to the facts.

Now I feel happy. You're the second person in as many days to be channeling Nessus.

Even then Kzin could be considered an example.

IIRC the Kzinti didn't earn their advanced tech - they were tapped as warrior slaves by another race then overthrew them and used their technology to start a conquering spree. Not that that means anything at all, being sci-fi and all...

But where is the bar set? Reasonable enough to escape self-annihilation does not mean reasonable enough to co-exist with another species. And consider "A mote in God's eye" and whether a different species could trust us enough. Only if they were vastly superior.

I didn't read Mote. Do you fear aliens?

Sure, you could consider a communal system. Now, consider what ants do to other nests of the same species, much less other species. Darwinism still works, even if the unit is a community and not an individual. Consider what we do to other species. It is about 99% "what can I gain from this creature."

That's a good point.

Or they might decide that, for the good of the galactic hive-mind/community, it would be better to annihilate those pesky individuals so they don't run around causing trouble.

Not so good. You guys are all depressing.

[Being]

With this we don't know what we don't know. Consider if they were silicon based or something and didn't have a lot of experience with orgo. I don't know - chemistry seems so vast that there could easily be naturally occuring systems we could not imagine before seeing them in practice.

Let's go a step further. Consider they are based on something we don't even know exists; something we can't even imagine because of our limited perception or knowledge of what could possibly exist. They show up without us even sensing their presence and take what they need, leaving us here to die of thirst.

[Nessus]

You're the second person in as many days to be channeling Nessus.

It's so nice of you to equate facts of physical reality with 'channeling' me

[EyeKhan]

Let's go a step further. Consider they are based on something we don't even know exists; something we can't even imagine because of our limited perception or knowledge of what could possibly exist. They show up without us even sensing their presence and take what they need, leaving us here to die of thirst.

V ( )

It's so nice of you to equate facts of physical reality with 'channeling' me

Heh. Have you ever had a better compliment from me?

[CitizenCain]

V ( )

God %$#^ing dammit. I forgot about that starting up again last month... now I've got 5 weeks worth of V to download fetch from TiVo and watch.

When the superior alien race comes, they better bring a vastly improved information management and notification system, or I'm gonna start shooting them in the face.

[EyeKhan]

God %$#^ing dammit. I forgot about that starting up again last month... now I've got 5 weeks worth of V to download fetch from TiVo and watch.

When the superior alien race comes, they better bring a vastly improved information management and notification system, or I'm gonna start shooting them in the face.

I had no idea they were remaking that. Is it still horribly stupid?

Also, you're a bit of a one trick pony with that face shooting thing.

[littlelolligagged]

Also, you're a bit of a one trick pony with that face shooting thing.

Just how many tricks do you think you could turn with ponies?

[CitizenCain]

I had no idea they were remaking that. Is it still horribly stupid?

First four episodes... which aired like 7 (?) months ago... were actually quite good. I can get back to you on the next five, once I've watched them (if you want).

Also, you're a bit of a one trick pony with that face shooting thing.

It's a classic solution for a reason.

I'd offer to punch them in the gonads... but it's not a sure thing that we'll know where those are right away. And maybe they'll be Silicoids or something, with sharp, jagged granite protrusions for penii... and punching that seems just stupid.

Don't wanna make a liar outta myself or anything.

Just how many tricks do you think you could turn with ponies?

Not many, believe me.

Even those ponies have pretty huge members, and believe me when I say that you don't wanna show up at the ER too many times with a perforated colon and horse semen dribbling out of your sphincter.

Nosy fucking doctors start asking all kinds of embarrassing questions and calling all kinds of government agencies and cops...

[Hazir]

Of course it does

Not entirely, but pretty much given the big numbers and that we need only one encounter with an unfriendly alien race to make his fears come true.