What the hell is libertarianism?

[CitizenCain]

Wait, are you saying that the US is economically dominant because of WWII? Really? 65 years later?!?!

Every commentator I ever read considered that over and done 30 years after at the latest. Otherwise, how could German and Japanese economies have kicked such serious butt in the 80s?

Every commentator I've read didn't see the recent economic meltdown coming either.

Evidence that what economic commentators say may or may not bear any resemblance to reality.

Try parsimony: the US invested far more than anybody else in basic research, and our economic dominance is based almost exclusively on science and technology. In contrast, our manufacturing dominance was gone decades ago. Hey, around the time that Japan and Germany surged in the 80s!

See Loki's post.

The figures that put the US funding on science and technology research as significantly higher than the rest of the developed world (as opposed to having it approximately on par) include the research done by those free market research labs (Bell Labs and the like)... which I find ironic, given how much we hear that the private sector can't drive basic scientific research. Good thing Bell Labs and IBM and the like didn't get that memo.

No it isn't. What it means is there are many 'projects' which are key to producing a great nation that a government is required to accomplish precisely because the government is (*often*) concerned with making a great nation whereas the private sector is chiefly concerned with serving itself even at the expense of making a great nation.

Horse shit. Bell Labs. Totally private funded (by one of those evil, mega-corporations that hate the country), and yet it alone, (to say nothing of the research arms of other large private firms) has arguably made more breakthroughs and advances in basic science and technology than the whole of the US federal government.

And anyway, if you want to live in a "great nation," move to China. The whole history of political liberalism is the history of putting the welfare and rights of individuals before the importance of having a grand empire or a "great nation."

[EyeKhan]

Horse shit. Bell Labs. Totally private funded (by one of those evil, mega-corporations that hate the country), and yet it alone, (to say nothing of the research arms of other large private firms) has arguably made more breakthroughs and advances in basic science and technology than the whole of the US federal government.

Breakthroughs with people educated in the US public school and university system and likely funded at least in part with lots of "pork barrel" grants.

And anyway, if you want to live in a "great nation," move to China. The whole history of political liberalism is the history of putting the welfare and rights of individuals before the importance of having a grand empire or a "great nation."

I'm more interested in a great civlization. I'd like the rest of the secrets of life, the Universe, and Everything to be puzzled out in US institutions, but if we give up on ourselves and slide back into some version of a 19th Century Anti-Utopia, I'm fine if the EU or China does it. At some point it's humanity's success and not a national success....

[Loki]

When did you become such a staunch nationalist?

[CitizenCain]

I'm more interested in a great civlization.

So, serious question, which you can answer after Loki's question...

What's keeping you here? China's huge on that "great civilization" thing, even to the point where they don't allow things like basic human rights to get in the way of that goal. So why are you still here, and not in China? (Or, is it possible that you're overstating the value you attach to being part of a "great civilization?")

[Flixy]

The US isn't exactly unique when it comes to funding basic research either.

Sure, but I'm guessing it helped most scientists fled/were deported to the USA. I mean, before the war, Germany was the big player in physics, and after the war not so much anymore.

[EyeKhan]

When did you become such a staunch nationalist?

Didn't I just sort of say the national thing didn't matter so much??? "...I"m fine if the EU or China does it."

So, serious question, which you can answer after Loki's question...

What's keeping you here? China's huge on that "great civilization" thing, even to the point where they don't allow things like basic human rights to get in the way of that goal. So why are you still here, and not in China? (Or, is it possible that you're overstating the value you attach to being part of a "great civilization?")

You call that a serious question? You really wonder why I don't abandon my job, my family, my country, everything I know, and move to a foreign culture, a developing nation no less, with people I can't even speak to, when here in my own country we *do still have* government investment in the things that interest me so long as I stay here and keep voting for sensible government? That's a serious question for you?

You have clearly grown bored with this discussion.

[CitizenCain]

You call that a serious question?

Yes.

And your over-the-top indignation answers it nicely. You may say you care about a "great society," and being a "great nation" is important to you... but apparently not important enough for you to tolerate any inconvenience.

So, like I said, if you want to be part of a "great nation," move to China. Otherwise, stop using it as a justification for your arguments, because you clearly don't believe it in practice.

[']['ear]

Every commentator I've read didn't see the recent economic meltdown coming either.

This is evidence for your wild assertion? And you didn't address the "crippled" Japan and Germany in the 80s.

The figures that put the US funding on science and technology research as significantly higher than the rest of the developed world (as opposed to having it approximately on par) include the research done by those free market research labs (Bell Labs and the like)... which I find ironic, given how much we hear that the private sector can't drive basic scientific research. Good thing Bell Labs and IBM and the like didn't get that memo.

The productivity of such private labs peaked in the 50s and 60s. you know, back when a couple of geeks could change the world with a clever chemistry of physics notion. Now it takes a decades, huge teams, and tens or hundreds of millions.

So let's talk about this half century, OK? Rather than the era of flat tops, Marilyn Monroe and horn rimmed glasses.

[CitizenCain]

This is evidence for your wild assertion? And you didn't address the "crippled" Japan and Germany in the 80s.

Loki did.

The productivity of such private labs peaked in the 50s and 60s.

[Citation needed]

you know, back when a couple of geeks could change the world with a clever chemistry of physics notion. Now it takes a decades, huge teams, and tens or hundreds of millions.

So let's talk about this half century, OK? Rather than the era of flat tops, Marilyn Monroe and horn rimmed glasses.

I *am* talking about this half century. Hell, for that matter, I could be talking about this month. (From Friday, less than one week ago... )

http://www-03.ibm.com/press/us/en/pr...ease/29983.wss

I guess it was only a matter of time, since they "photographed" that atom last year with the same basic technology. Which they invented.

[EyeKhan]

Yes.

And your over-the-top indignation answers it nicely. You may say you care about a "great society," and being a "grat nation" is important to you... but apparently not important enough for you to tolerate any inconvenience.


So, like I said, if you want to be part of a "great nation," move to China. Otherwise, stop using it as a justification for your arguments, because you clearly don't believe it in practice.

First the over the top indignation was supposed to be humorous. Second this is my nation, it's pretty great, and as long as libertarians and the far right wing don't get their way it will probably stay great. So really, it's you who ought to move. If you don't like taxes, I hear they don't pay much in Greece.

[']['ear]

Sigh. Citing Loki as an authoritative source, the irony of YOU demanding linkage of people, and the power of the anecdote all wrapped into one.

Bravo IBM, working in a vacuum and revolutionizing science!

you're right Cain. You're always right, everybody else is always wrong. I bow to you.

[Being]

[CitizenCain]

First the over the top indignation was supposed to be humorous. Second this is my nation, it's pretty great, and as long as libertarians and the far right wing don't get their way it will probably stay great.

Well, like I said, may you get what you want and be damned by life's other tragedy.

I just hope you live long enough to see "the entitlement generation" take over.

So really, it's you who ought to move. If you don't like taxes, I hear they don't pay much in Greece.

I'd move in heartbeat if there was anywhere to move to.

Sigh. Citing Loki as an authoritative source, the irony of YOU demanding linkage of people, and the power of the anecdote all wrapped into one.

Bravo IBM, working in a vacuum and revolutionizing science!

you're right Cain. You're always right, everybody else is always wrong. I bow to you.

See?

Perfect example of why it's a better use of my time to mock your drug-dealing, guerrilla warfare past than attempt a serious discussion.

Is that why you don't like IBM? Their part in the congressional hearings over Iran-Contra?

[Nessus]

I'd move in heartbeat if there was anywhere to move to.

Given your constant frustration with taxation and civilized society, the stupidity of people and your professed willingness to go out and kill people willy-nilly, you moving to Afrika and starting up your own little revolutionary army seems like a more sensible and realistic suggestion than Chambalaya moving to China.

[CitizenCain]

Given your constant frustration with taxation and civilized society, the stupidity of people and your professed willingness to go out and kill people willy-nilly,

I am not willing to kill people "willy-nilly." I always have my reasons for wanting to kill people.

And frankly, given the incredible in-roads the Nazis made with eugenics, and you being the forum's resident fem-Nazi, I'd think you of all people should understand the need to exterminate the stupid and wrong-thinking folks of the world.

you moving to Afrika and starting up your own little revolutionary army seems like a more sensible and realistic suggestion than Chambalaya moving to China.

Because a libertarian moving to a dictatorship and/or Muslim theocracy makes more sense than someone who wants to be part of a "grand society" moving to the world's only current "grand society?"

Interesting thinking, but... you're very wrong.

Just as well, I hate the heat anyway. Now if you could find me an unincorporated part of Canadian/Russian/Scandahoovian tundra where the laws and tax rates don't apply... we may have found the future site of my dream home/hydroponic drug farm. But certainly not Africa, with the heat and the Muslims and the tyrants and the Negros. <shudder> Seriously, surrounded by religious, Negroid tyrants in heat? Sounds like hell... so you first.

[Nessus]

I am not willing to kill people "willy-nilly." I always have my reasons for wanting to kill people.

And frankly, given the incredible in-roads the Nazis made with eugenics, and you being the forum's resident fem-Nazi, I'd think you of all people should understand the need to exterminate the stupid and wrong-thinking folks of the world.

Nowhere in my post did I say I didn't.

Because a libertarian moving to a dictatorship and/or Muslim theocracy makes more sense than someone who wants to be part of a "grand society" moving to the world's only current "grand society?"

Interesting thinking, but... you're very wrong.

Just as well, I hate the heat anyway. Now if you could find me an unincorporated part of Canadian/Russian/Scandahoovian tundra where the laws and tax rates don't apply... we may have found the future site of my dream home/hydroponic drug farm. But certainly not Africa, with the heat and the Muslims and the tyrants and the Negros. <shudder> Seriously, surrounded by religious, Negroid tyrants in heat? Sounds like hell... so you first.

Please cut the "grand society" shit with me, I'm really not interested in playing libertarian word games. Communism and socialism are not the same thing, unless you want me to do the same kind of logical leap you explained to me earlier and conclude that anarchism is the logical conclusion of libertarianism.

And the main point of the suggestion was that you'd instigate your own revolution and build that gun-toting, freedom-loving Utopia from the ground up. One of the biggest Internet libertarian irritants seem to be the moochers, free-loaders and other worthless people not willing to lift themselves from the mire by their bootstraps. The libertarian is a mover and a doer, a dynamic and driven individual without a hint of a neckbeard or a poor social disposition. Certainly it'd be much more in character for a libertarian to try and make the changes in society he or she so much desires? It's what Galt would do!

As for the pigmentation handicap and disgusting religion so prevalent near the equator, well. You have to work with what you're given. The civilization of the white man, moving towards secular humanism, seems to entail a pretty plethora of ideals and ideas that gravitate societies towards socialist practices. If one of the axioms of a society is the worth of a human life a priori, the whole lifting by ones bootstraps ideal becomes a bit passé. So if one were to try and create the libertarian garden of Eden on Earth, it'd pretty much have to be in a less civilized area. Which kind of leaves either brown people land, or other barren wastelands. I guess you could give it a go in northern Russia, but their separatist movements tend to have Mohammedan ties as well. I guess you could use poker winnings to hire other WASP males to conquer some land, kill the indigenous bucks and claim the females. Anyway, it's your revolution, you work it out!

[CitizenCain]

Please cut the "grand society" shit with me, I'm really not interested in playing libertarian word games.

I wasn't playing that with you, I was suggesting a location to 'loobi where all his "grand civilization"/all- glory-to-the-state dreams could come true.

Communism and socialism are not the same thing, unless you want me to do the same kind of logical leap you explained to me earlier and conclude that anarchism is the logical conclusion of libertarianism.

I'd be fine with that, assuming, of course, you'd use an actual example of anarchism. (And not an example of what happens when too many governments try to occupy the same area.)

And the main point of the suggestion was that you'd instigate your own revolution and build that gun-toting, freedom-loving Utopia from the ground up. One of the biggest Internet libertarian irritants seem to be the moochers, free-loaders and other worthless people not willing to lift themselves from the mire by their bootstraps. The libertarian is a mover and a doer, a dynamic and driven individual without a hint of a neckbeard or a poor social disposition. Certainly it'd be much more in character for a libertarian to try and make the changes in society he or she so much desires? It's what Galt would do!

Hey, if you wanna take on the world's lone superpower with a handgun and the box of ammo in *your* nightstand, feel free. But frankly, it's a stupid idea that inevitably ends in your destruction... so it really sounds like it's more up a socialist's alley.

As for the pigmentation handicap and disgusting religion so prevalent near the equator, well. You have to work with what you're given. The civilization of the white man, moving towards secular humanism, seems to entail a pretty plethora of ideals and ideas that gravitate societies towards socialist practices. If one of the axioms of a society is the worth of a human life a priori, the whole lifting by ones bootstraps ideal becomes a bit passé.

Yes, yes, having someone else provide for your existence in exchange for nothing is a human right in Europe. We know. But, apparently, so are vacations... so perhaps Europe's ideas about human rights aren't your strongest argument here.

I guess you could use poker winnings to hire other WASP males to conquer some land, kill the indigenous bucks and claim the females. Anyway, it's your revolution, you work it out!

Because only white males are libertarian? Try again.

But the idea about slaughtering the males of an area and taking their women is a good one... maybe we'll start with Scandahoovia... I've always wanted a Swedish chick as a pet.

[Nessus]

Your herrings and strawmen look lovely this morning, guess I shouldn't've expected much else

[CitizenCain]

What, like you actually wanted another socialism vs sane government libertarianism thread?

That was a big, boring waste of time at the other place - you think it'll be any different here?

[Nessus]

My recollection of the last couple times we tried it, you threw your hands in the air in disgust, which I suppose is as good indicator as any that you were bored. I'm just not a big fan of wild tangents and Internet big-man stuff. And from the looks of it Chambalaya's at least trying to have a discussion about it with you, your Chinese Jedi mind tricks notwithstanding. But you are correct in that it probably wouldn't be much different here or much anywhere else online, making fun of libertarianism is a pretty popular hobby on the Intertrons!

[CitizenCain]

My recollection of the last couple times we tried it, you threw your hands in the air in disgust, which I suppose is as good indicator as any that you were bored.

You weren't? Maybe my threshold for the number of times I can read or re-write the same position is lower than yours, but either way, I can't see how anyone could have found it fun.

But you are correct in that it probably wouldn't be much different here or much anywhere else online, making fun of libertarianism is a pretty popular hobby on the Intertrons!

People sitting around at home collecting welfare checks and teenagers living in their parents' basement need someone to make fun of, I suppose. Seems that people willing and able to earn a living without mooching off of mommy and daddy (or uncle Sam) are the logical target for that demographic.

[Nessus]

*pat pat*

[']['ear]

I'm wondering about how one could portray in cartoon the fact that libertarians are "fiscal conservatives and social liberals," yet it seems that when they vote, 98% of them choose "fiscal conservative." They always pick the money over the social, yet they wonder why so many people consider libertarian synonymous with "selfish."

[GGT]

I'm wondering about how one could portray in cartoon the fact that libertarians are "fiscal conservatives and social liberals," yet it seems that when they vote, 98% of them choose "fiscal conservative." They always pick the money over the social, yet they wonder why so many people consider libertarian synonymous with "selfish."

They don't buy pet food, but just give their pets dinner scraps, or throw them out the door to hunt for food, but they'll go to the vet for parasitic meds because they got worms, ticks or fleas by foraging for their food?

[Young Mage]

I'm wondering about how one could portray in cartoon the fact that libertarians are "fiscal conservatives and social liberals," yet it seems that when they vote, 98% of them choose "fiscal conservative." They always pick the money over the social, yet they wonder why so many people consider libertarian synonymous with "selfish."

Not everything is black and white, you should maybe factor in a few more variables. I'd burn all the big-nosed-JP Morgans in the world if it meant saving a couple of dollars in this economy.

[']['ear]

Not everything is black and white, you should maybe factor in a few more variables.

How many times have I said this to Lewk? I long ago arrived at the conclusion that moderation was best in most things, especially politics. My point was that while the "fiscal conservative+social liberal" definition of libertarian is spot on, it is telling that when push comes to shove, they'll vote conservative almost every time. That tells you a lot about the root cause of their philosophical stance.

I'd burn all the big-nosed-JP Morgans in the world if it meant saving a couple of dollars in this economy.

Wha?
1) Burn?
2) Big nosed?
3) JP Morgans?
4) A couple of dollars?
5) In this economy?

This might be the most weird-assed post I've seen from somebody other than Kath in months.

[Young Mage]

How many times have I said this to Lewk? I long ago arrived at the conclusion that moderation was best in most things, especially politics. My point was that while the "fiscal conservative+social liberal" definition of libertarian is spot on, it is telling that when push comes to shove, they'll vote conservative almost every time. That tells you a lot about the root cause of their philosophical stance.

I robbed a man because my daughter is dying of cancer and I'm working three jobs. I still don't have enough money to buy her the proper medicine. Should I go to jail?

Wha?
1) Burn?
2) Big nosed?
3) JP Morgans?
4) A couple of dollars?
5) In this economy?

This might be the most weird-assed post I've seen from somebody other than Kath in months.

Figure out who JP Morgan is
Figure out which race has big noses
Figure out who the biggest Jew to walk this planet was
Connect the dots and come back to me.

[CitizenCain]

How many times have I said this to Lewk? I long ago arrived at the conclusion that moderation was best in most things, especially politics. My point was that while the "fiscal conservative+social liberal" definition of libertarian is spot on, it is telling that when push comes to shove, they'll vote conservative almost every time. That tells you a lot about the root cause of their philosophical stance.

No, it tells you that if you give the government more money, no matter its intentions, it will have more power when it eventually decides to abuse it. (And based on the current administration, "eventually" == one month, at the outside.)

You only need look at the Obama administrations virtually identical record (to the Bush Jr. administration) on social liberties to explain why libertarians don't bother voting Democrat - the Democrats are every bit as bad about social liberties as the Republicans are, just from the other side of the aisle. And historically, they charge more (though that may have changed with neo/compassionate conservatism).

Also, that cartoon is poorly drawn and retarded. If house pets were Democrats, they'd own 40% of your house and insist on laws to prevent discrimination against any animals. olololololol, ZOMG1111!!.

[']['ear]

Cain: the GOP will ban abortions (of interest to all tom cats, a role which you claim), require "papers" and demand to see them, insure that drugs stay outlawed, chase illegal brown people essential for our economy out of the country, institute Christian madrassas funded by taxpayers, etc etc. We both know that the Republicans are FAR more socially conservative, despite a few exceptions like gun control. So spare us the rationalizations, huh? Libertarians that vote Rep chose money over social, those that vote Dem choose social over money. It's pretty simple, and your inclinations are also pretty simple to divine.

Figure out who JP Morgan is

I've known longer than you've been alive. I even know who Jaypee Morgan is, and watched her on a bad yet strangely hilarious TV show in the70s.

Figure out which race has big noses

Arabs? Are you taking a crack at being a bigot now?

Figure out who the biggest Jew to walk this planet was

Probably Goliath, given that there is no genetic distinction between pure ethnic Jews and the surrounding peoples.

Connect the dots and come back to me.

So very clever. And so very proud of himself. And so very non-funny.

[CitizenCain]

Arabs? Are you taking a crack at being a bigot now?

Jews. It's Jews who have big noses. According to popular sentiment, we're supposed to ignore the fact that Jews and Arabs are from the same racial/ethnic group (and thus, virtually identical, biologically), and only focus on the big noses of Jews, while ignoring the fact that it's a common Arab (as well as Mediterranean and Slavic) trait.

Just so you know - you wouldn't want to be embarrassed by bringing up this kind of inconvenient and undesirable factoid, next time you're hanging out in the company of white supremacists. Seriously, in those circles, it's almost as bad as letting slip that you once slept with a black chick!

And no matter how you try to explain it away - it was on a dare, I was drunk, I was blindfolded - they never let you forget about it, and always make fun of you for it. I swear, if they don't drop it soon, I'm gonna stop going to the meetings.