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Thread: Greece, the gloves are off

  1. #361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So let's say you have a recession and tax revenue falls by 20%. Do you increase taxes by enough to get rid of that shortfall?
    So let's say that I notice a move of the most important eurozone state towards a zero-deficit policy. Then let's say that I see this state pushing other states in the same direction. Does that make me the biggest proponent of that policy or something? The reason why I find Randblade such a dimwit is that he doesn't understand that if entities that big start to move you better take notice, or ignore it at your own perril.

    And now you also know why I am not going to answer your question.
    Congratulations America

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    You're so funny, now you're even against programs that are extremely conservative in their economical outlook
    No, sticking your head in the sand is not 'extremely Conservative'.

  3. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    No, sticking your head in the sand is not 'extremely Conservative'.
    I'll have to take your word for that.

    In the real world; the governments of France and Austria have announced they intend to introduce constitutional curbs on budget deficits and the EC is being pushed to introduce an EU wide ban of naked short selling. (Which Germany, such a coincidence, has already introduced only days ago)
    Last edited by Hazir; 05-22-2010 at 07:21 PM.
    Congratulations America

  4. #364
    I'm guessing rich Greeks are going to have to start paying taxes.
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  5. #365
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    So let's say that I notice a move of the most important eurozone state towards a zero-deficit policy. Then let's say that I see this state pushing other states in the same direction. Does that make me the biggest proponent of that policy or something? The reason why I find Randblade such a dimwit is that he doesn't understand that if entities that big start to move you better take notice, or ignore it at your own perril.

    And now you also know why I am not going to answer your question.
    Indeed: If they start to move.

    So what moves have they made. No, pretty words don't count, what real
    moves have been made? An alcoholic can say they won't drink anymore, but it doesn't mean we take them at their word.

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Indeed: If they start to move.

    So what moves have they made. No, pretty words don't count, what real
    moves have been made? An alcoholic can say they won't drink anymore, but it doesn't mean we take them at their word.
    Yet another nonsensical post by Randblade; who thinks that 'nothing is happening' if countries don't have new laws and budgets overnight.
    Congratulations America

  7. #367
    No another nonsensical post from Hazir who patently is ignoring anything that is actually happening in the real world.

  8. #368
    Fiscal crises threaten Europe's generous benefits
    Financial crisis threatens Europe's cherished system of social welfare benefits


    Michael Weissenstein, Associated Press Writer, On Sunday May 23, 2010, 4:55 pm EDT
    LONDON (AP) -- Six weeks of vacation a year. Retirement at 60. Thousands of euros for having a baby. A good university education for less than the cost of a laptop.

    The system known as the European welfare state was built after World War II as the keystone of a shared prosperity meant to prevent future conflict. Generous lifelong benefits have since become a defining feature of modern Europe.

    Now the welfare state -- cherished by many Europeans as an alternative to what they see as dog-eat-dog American capitalism -- is coming under its most serious threat in decades: Europe's sovereign debt crisis.

    Deep budget cuts are under way across Europe. Although the first round is focused mostly on government payrolls -- the least politically explosive target -- welfare benefits are looking increasingly vulnerable.

    "The current welfare state is unaffordable," said Uri Dadush, director of the Carnegie Endowment's International Economics Program. "The crisis has made the day of reckoning closer by several years in virtually all the industrial countries."

    Germany will decide next month just how to cut at least 3 billion euros ($3.75 billion) from the budget. The government is suggesting for the first time that it could make fresh cuts to unemployment benefits that include giving Germans under 50 about 60 percent of their last salary before taxes for up to a year. That benefit itself emerged after cuts to an even more generous package about five years ago.

    "We have to adjust our social security systems in a way that they motivate people to accept regular work and do not give counterproductive incentives," German Finance Minister Wolfgang Schaeuble told news weekly Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung on Saturday.

    The uncertainty over the future of the welfare state is undermining the continent's self-image at a time when other key elements of post-war European identity are fraying.

    Large-scale immigration from outside Europe is challenging the continent's assumptions about its dedication to tolerance and liberty as countries move to control individual clothing -- the Islamic veil -- in the name of freedom and equality.

    Deeply wary of military conflict, many nations now find themselves nonetheless mired in Afghanistan on behalf of what was supposed to be a North Atlantic alliance, shying away from wholesale pullout while doing their utmost to keep troops from actual combat.

    Demographers and economists began warning decades ago that social welfare was doomed by the aging of Europe's baby boomers. Some governments had been trimming and reforming, but now almost all are scrambling to close deficits in order to prevent a wider collapse of confidence in the euro.

    "We need to change, to adapt ... for the sake of the protection of our social model," European Union Commissioner Joaquin Almunia of Spain told reporters in Stockholm Thursday.

    The move is risky: experts warn the cuts could undermine the growth needed to pull budgets back on a sustainable path.

    On Monday, Britain unveils 6 billion pounds ($8.6 billion) in cuts -- mostly to government payrolls and expenses. The government has promised to raise the age at which citizens receive a state pension -- up from 60 to 65 for women, and from 65 to 66 for men. It also plans to toughen the welfare regime, requiring the unemployed to try to find jobs in order to collect benefits.

    Britain says it will limit child tax credits and scrap a 250-pound ($360) payment to the families of every newborn. Ministers are reviewing the long-term affordability of the country's generous public sector pensions.

    Funding for Britain's nationalized health care service will be protected under the new government, however, and should rise each year to 2015.

    France's conservative government is focusing on raising the retirement age. Many workers can now retire at 60 with 50 percent of their average salary. Extra funds are available for retired civil servants, those with three or more children, military veterans and others.

    A parliamentary debate is planned for September. Unions in France are organizing a national day of protest marches and strikes on Thursday to demand protection of wages and the retirement age.

    In Spain, billions in cuts to state salaries go into effect next month, and the Socialist government has frozen increases in pensions meant to compensate for inflation for at least two years.

    "They've hit us really hard," said Federico Carbonero, 92, a retired soldier. He said he was unlikely to live long enough to see the worst of the pension freeze, but had no doubts he would have to start relying on savings to maintain his lifestyle.

    Spain is cutting assistance payments for disabled people by 300 million euros ($375 million) and did away with a three-year-old bonus of 2,500 euros ($3,124.25) per new baby. It also has proposed hiking the retirement age for men from 65 to 67.

    Countries in northern Europe have done a far better of reforming social welfare and have unemployment systems that focus on re-employing people instead of making their unemployment comfortable, said Gayle Allard, a professor of economic environment and country analysis at the Instituto de Empresa in Madrid.

    Denmark and other Nordic countries are known for the world's highest taxes and most generous cradle-to-grave benefits. Denmark has implemented a system known broadly as "flexicurity," which combines flexibility for employers to hire and fire workers with financial security and training to prepare for new jobs.

    Denmark had a 7.5 percent unemployment rate in the first quarter of this year, well below the EU average of 9.6 percent. Swedish and Finnish unemployment stood at 8.9 percent. Norway, with some of the world's most generous unemployment benefits fully funded by oil for the forseeable future, has Europe's lowest jobless rate, just 3 percent in April.

    Southern European countries that have not moved toward reforming welfare in the same ways are paying a steep price.

    After sharp cutbacks imposed as the condition of an international bailout this month, Greeks must now contribute to pension funds for 40 instead of 37 years before retiring, and the age of early retirement is set to 60 at the earliest.

    Civil servants with monthly salaries of above 3,000 euros ($3,750) will lose two extra months of salary -- one paid at Christmas, the other split between Easter and summer vacation.

    In Portugal, seen as another potential candidate for bailout, the government is focusing on hikes in income, corporate and sales taxes and has avoided drastic changes to welfare entitlements. Unemployment benefits will be cut somewhat and the out-of-work will have to accept any job paying more than 10 percent more than what they would receive in unemployment benefits.

    The government is also stepping up checks on welfare claims, freezing public sector pay and slicing public investment.

    "There's been a lack of willingness to shift away from welfare as purely social protection towards an approach which has been in much of northern Europe in recent years, which is welfare as social investment," said Iain Begg, a professor at the London School of Economics and Political Science's European Institute.

    Otto Fricke, a budget expert for the Free Democrats, the coalition partner of German Chancellor Angela Merkel's Christian Democratic Union, told The Associated Press that no decisions on cuts have been made, but everything is on the table except education, pension funds and financial aid to developing countries. At least one high-ranking CDU member has called for the idea of protecting education to be re-examined, however.

    German public education, which was virtually free until 2005, when some of Germany's 16 states started charging tuition fees of 1000 euros ($1,250) a year.

    Virtually all Germany's students pay that much or less to attend state-funded universities, including elite institutions. Education isn't as cheap elsewhere in Europe but the 3,290 pounds ($4,720) per year paid by British students at Cambridge is still far less than Americans pay at comparable schools like Harvard, where annual tuition comes in just shy of $35,000.

    The idea of cutting education is proving hard to swallow in the face of Germany's promise to contribute up to 147.6 billion euros ($184.5 billion) in loan guarantees to protect Greece and other countries that use the euro from bankruptcy.

    "I am worried that this crisis will also affect me on a personal level, for example, that universities in Germany will raise the tuition in order to pay the loan they give to Greece," said Karoline Daederich, a 22-year-old university student from Berlin.
    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Fiscal...&asset=&ccode=

  9. #369
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    I guess the people who wrote that never heard of Sweden.
    Congratulations America

  10. #370
    Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of the writer.
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  11. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    Sounds like wishful thinking on the part of the writer.
    It mostly is; I'm not saying that everything is going just fine in Europe, but there are more solutions in a continent where people like low taxes but don't think that starving the state is the way to go. Unlike that other continent where the dominant culture is that any taxation is intrinsically evil.
    Congratulations America

  12. #372
    Then share any EU news you know, about who's doing what.

    (UK has some problems with pensions for the Royal Mail, eh?)

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    I guess the people who wrote that never heard of Sweden.
    What gives you that idea? The segment about how Sweden, Denmark and the other high tax Nortern, Nordic countries have cradle to grave welfare and are coping ... What part of that did you disagree with?

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    What gives you that idea? The segment about how Sweden, Denmark and the other high tax Nortern, Nordic countries have cradle to grave welfare and are coping ... What part of that did you disagree with?
    It's a a bunch of hogwash, the nordic countries have a welfare system that is exponentionally more generous than the one we see in any southern EU country. The main problem we have with the southern countries is one of governance. If Greece would collect taxes due it would run a surplus on its budget.

    Claiming that the only difference lies in the nordic countries having a system of workfare and the southerners get easy money is blatant nonsense. The Greek system as such could even be said to work the same albeit with lower costs to the tax-payer. Rather than having lots of people on relatively high paid subsidized jobs the Greeks opted for having a lot of people as lowly paid civil servants.
    Congratulations America

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It's a a bunch of hogwash, the nordic countries have a welfare system that is exponentionally more generous than the one we see in any southern EU country. The main problem we have with the southern countries is one of governance. If Greece would collect taxes due it would run a surplus on its budget.
    But the article said specifically that Sweden, Denmark and others are coping. Are you saying that's hogwash?

  16. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    But the article said specifically that Sweden, Denmark and others are coping. Are you saying that's hogwash?
    It said they were coping because they make people work, and that the southerners aren't coping because of their generous handouts. HOGWASH. Even the complete washout jobless in Denmark get more money than the underemployed civil servants of Greece. The difference is not in how generous the system is, but in how strict the tax-people are.

    What the south needs is not a reform of it's nascent welfare state, what it needs is a system in which they have the funding to pay for the little they have. What would also be nice if they'd have policies that make it more attractive for people to work in the private economy than in underpaid jobs that the government creates by the thousand.
    Congratulations America

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Hazir View Post
    It said they were coping because they make people work, and that the southerners aren't coping because of their generous handouts. HOGWASH.
    Wrong as usual Hazir. You need to improve your reading comprehension and not just what you want to read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Article (Emphasis added)
    Denmark and other Nordic countries are known for the world's highest taxes and most generous cradle-to-grave benefits.
    It's a bit imaginative to claim that the "most generous" system in the world is being claimed to be less generous than the south.

    What the south needs is not a reform of it's nascent welfare state, what it needs is a system in which they have the funding to pay for the little they have.
    It needs both, but in no way imagineable can the welfare in the European states that are struggling be called a "lttle"
    What would also be nice if they'd have policies that make it more attractive for people to work in the private economy than in underpaid jobs that the government creates by the thousand.
    Indeed. I have a few proposals for that: Cut taxes on businesses and income (make private more attractive), don't create thousands and thousands of needless jobs in government (less attractive, pays for option 1). Simples.

  18. #378
    I have to agree with Hazir here. The countries that are going bust now (Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal) are not ones with the most generous welfare states; they are ones with the least effective government.
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  19. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Wrong as usual Hazir. You need to improve your reading comprehension and not just what you want to read. It's a bit imaginative to claim that the "most generous" system in the world is being claimed to be less generous than the south.

    It needs both, but in no way imagineable can the welfare in the European states that are struggling be called a "lttle"
    Indeed. I have a few proposals for that: Cut taxes on businesses and income (make private more attractive), don't create thousands and thousands of needless jobs in government (less attractive, pays for option 1). Simples.
    The wellfare state in Greece is not the problem and excessive taxation very obviously also isn't the problem. I missed the point where they implied all Greek civil servants make thousands a month. That comes as close to a falsehood as it gets.

    The average is well below that, pensions are even lower. Taxes are predominantly levied on those who work for the government and who draw on a pension. Randblade, you are an idiot for thinking that any of your solutions will work for Greece. Greece doesn't need less taxation, it needs effective taxation. It also doesn't need a lesser welfare state but it needs less bureaucracy so that private businesses have a chance. It also needs a government that privatises those parts of the economy that should not be run by the state. Like an airline for example.
    Congratulations America

  20. #380
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I have to agree with Hazir here. The countries that are going bust now (Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal) are not ones with the most generous welfare states; they are ones with the least effective government.
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  21. #381
    Greeks are also expected to "tip" the mail carrier that brings their pensions checks. It's rampant, it's everywhere (from what I've been told). There are two prices for everything--one with a receipt and one *coughcough* without.

  22. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    That's a couple of billions.
    Congratulations America

  23. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Greeks are also expected to "tip" the mail carrier that brings their pensions checks. It's rampant, it's everywhere (from what I've been told). There are two prices for everything--one with a receipt and one *coughcough* without.
    In Italy they even have a fiscal police that check if people have the sales slip and do fine both shopkeeper and customer if they don't.
    Congratulations America

  24. #384
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I have to agree with Hazir here. The countries that are going bust now (Greece, Italy, Spain, and Portugal) are not ones with the most generous welfare states; they are ones with the least effective government.
    Obviously. Nobody is disputing that. The article says that the Nordic countries have the most generous welfare systems in the world and are coping fine, Hazir calls that hogwash. I'm wondering if its the "most generous in the world" claim that is hogwash, or the "coping fine" bit - because for me both are true.

  25. #385
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    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Obviously. Nobody is disputing that. The article says that the Nordic countries have the most generous welfare systems in the world and are coping fine, Hazir calls that hogwash. I'm wondering if its the "most generous in the world" claim that is hogwash, or the "coping fine" bit - because for me both are true.
    You can go fuck yourself Randblade, you know full well that I was talking about the tenor of the piece and its suggested solutions.

  26. #386
    Ah, so when the article said that Sweden had the most generous welfare system in the world, when it said that it is coping ... And you said hogwash, have they ever heard of Sweden ... You didn't actually mean it? You actually agreed with the article regarding Sweden? Is that right?

  27. #387
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    Are you ignoring the part deliberately where the weak government is the source of the problem and not taxation or the lack thereof?

    All your fine little dandy ideas of tax breaks and the like will yield absolutely nothing if the state does not wield the clout to actually enforce its legislation. THAT is the problem here. Everything is else is just partisan hogwash in order to further your political agenda of how the markets ought to be.

    Cutting taxes is a laughable concept if 30% of the already existing taxes are already bypassed anyway and if corruption is so accepted that there's an independent term for it.
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  28. #388
    Name a single person here who claims that tax evasion is not a problem?

    Cutting taxes is not a laughable concept if taxes are applied inconsistently and aggressively against those whom it is applied against. It is possible to have lower tax rates, but more evenly spread out so that everyone pays. Rather than potentially punitative rates against the honest and nothing against everyone else.

  29. #389
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Name a single person here who claims that tax evasion is not a problem?
    Every person here who thinks taxes are too high.

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Cutting taxes is not a laughable concept if taxes are applied inconsistently and aggressively against those whom it is applied against.
    What?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    ...but more evenly spread out so that everyone pays.
    So now you're a socialist?

    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Rather than potentially punitative rates against the honest and nothing against everyone else.
    You're gonna need to remind me what you deem as honest.
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  30. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    So now you're a socialist? .
    No he lives in a fantasy world where Greeks pay taxes and Cameron is going to save the world (again).
    Congratulations America

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