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Thread: Female genital mutilation okay in small doses, says American Academy of Pediatrics

  1. #211
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I actually read it in full, I was curious.

    That's known as a list of bullet points for an opinion. Not a or even a meta-study.
    You said: "They did not discuss it."

    They did discuss it, albeit shortly and lined up the most important arguments both pro and contra. Honestly, you don't need any more research.

    What about this argument for example?

    it is reasonable to put off circumcision until the age at which such a risk is relevant and the boy himself can decide about the intervention, or can opt for any available alternatives.
    Why does the boy have to be circumcised when he absolutely cannot say anything about the matter?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  2. #212
    I have to admire dreads attempt to PR us into a red vs blue "militants" vs "agnostics" discussion here.

    Funny since the two descriptions dont pair...
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  3. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    You said: "They did not discuss it."

    They did discuss it, albeit shortly and lined up the most important arguments both pro and contra. Honestly, you don't need any more research.

    What about this argument for example?
    Lining up arguments != discussing research.

    @Spawnie- Drawing some distinction between foreskin militants and foreskin agnostics is pretty accurate -- some people don't particularly care and shrug, while others think this is a crime against humanity. That's why you don't see large numbers of pro-circumcision Web sites out there. Because it's foreskin militants vs. foreskin agnostics.

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Lining up arguments != discussing research.

    @Spawnie- Drawing some distinction between foreskin militants and foreskin agnostics is pretty accurate -- some people don't particularly care and shrug, while others think this is a crime against humanity. That's why you don't see large numbers of pro-circumcision Web sites out there. Because it's foreskin militants vs. foreskin agnostics.
    You still did not adress my question: Why is it okay to mutilate a baby when it can't speak for itself and the procedure is not necessary in any way?

    Violates the Hippocratic Oath, by the way.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  5. #215
    Because it's not mutilation.

    See? This can go round and round forever.

  6. #216
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Because it's not mutilation.

    See? This can go round and round forever.
    You still did not answer the question. At this age, the procedure is completely and totally unnecessary. You're trying to dodge the issue.

    Again: WHY CAN'T IT WAIT UNTIL THE CHILD IS OLD ENOUGH TO DECIDE FOR HIMSELF?

    And it definitely can be argued that circumcision is a form of mutilation.

    Some tribes practice some ritual mutilation, e.g. scarification, as part of a rite of passage (e.g. initiation ritual). burning, flagellation or wheeling. In some cases, the term may apply to treatment of dead bodies, such as soldiers mutilated after they have been killed by an enemy.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutilation

    And before you go off the deep end again and only argue against the definition, try to answer the question for this time, will ya?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  7. #217
    I wonder, since a nonbutchered cock is so filthy, how did the societies that didnt practice circumcision survive without someone to come along and lop off a bit of their cock on principle?
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  8. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    I wonder, since a nonbutchered cock is so filthy, how did the societies that didnt practice circumcision survive without someone to come along and lop off a bit of their cock on principle?
    Not going to get involved in the argument, but I'll point out societies which practiced ritual cannibalism survived, even with the hideous risks of prion disease. Hell, not even 18th-19th century London killed the British Empire.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Not going to get involved in the argument, but I'll point out societies which practiced ritual cannibalism survived, even with the hideous risks of prion disease. Hell, not even 18th-19th century London killed the British Empire.
    So, now you're comparing cannibalism to circumcision? Nice, Dread will have a stroke
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #220
    Well, you do know where bubble gum comes from, right?
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  11. #221

  12. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Why are you laughing?

    The traditional Chinese practices of lÃ*ngchÃ* and foot binding are forms of mutilation that have captured the imagination of Westerners, as well as the now tourist centered "long-neck" people, a sub-group of the Karen known as the Padaung where women wear brass rings around their neck.[1] The act of tattooing is also considered a form of self-mutilation according to some cultural traditions, such as within the Muslim religion.[2][3] A joint statement released by the United Nations and numerous other international bodies opposes female genital cutting (female circumcision) as a form of mutilation.[4] Denniston et al. have argued that male circumcision is a form of mutilation;[5] their arguments have been criticised by Benatar and Benatar.[6]

  13. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    And before you go off the deep end again and only argue against the definition, try to answer the question for this time, will ya?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Great expectations
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  14. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Again: WHY CAN'T IT WAIT UNTIL THE CHILD IS OLD ENOUGH TO DECIDE FOR HIMSELF?
    Repeated.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steely Glint View Post
    It's actually the original French billion, which is bi-million, which is a million to the power of 2. We adopted the word, and then they changed it, presumably as revenge for Crecy and Agincourt, and then the treasonous Americans adopted the new French usage and spread it all over the world. And now we have to use it.

    And that's Why I'm Voting Leave.

  15. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Great expectations
    Yeah. It's the usual style - try to open a completely different battlefield by targetting something else.

    Again: WHY CAN'T IT WAIT UNTIL THE CHILD IS OLD ENOUGH TO DECIDE FOR HIMSELF?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  16. #226
    I'm not sure if just being smug counts as a red herring, but that doesn't keep him from trying
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  17. #227
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    Well, this only proves another saying of mine:

    Slavish adherence to tradition only proves that your mind is incapable of anything else.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  18. #228
    This is why I say folks are foreskin militants and others are foreskin agnostics. If you believe that the foreskin is a cherished, vital and Godly skin flap, of course you would be militant about when/how/if someone gets it removed. If you believe that it's a skin flap one can live with or without (and there may be some benefits to just not having it), you're agnostic and won't take sides.

  19. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    That's a perfectly fair assessment of the situation and the views presented, well done
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  20. #230
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    This is why I say folks are foreskin militants and others are foreskin agnostics. If you believe that the foreskin is a cherished, vital and Godly skin flap, of course you would be militant about when/how/if someone gets it removed. If you believe that it's a skin flap one can live with or without (and there may be some benefits to just not having it), you're agnostic and won't take sides.
    Geeze man, you still did not answer the question. Is your brain fried or something?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  21. #231
    Is yours? If you're a foreskin agnostic, you don't care if parents choose when a child is an infant. Just like if you're an ear piercing agnostic, you don't care if someone gets their baby's ear's pierced.

    If you're a foreskin militant, you keep asking the same incredulous question over and over because you can't imagine that someone could be a foreskin agnostic, despite the hundreds of millions of perfectly happy circumcised people.

  22. #232
    I refuse to believe you're this dense, but are just trolling/strawmanning, which is pretty damn lame from a moderator
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #233
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    Yeah, his brain is fried. And he still did no answer the question. I think it's because he does not have an answer and thus chooses the easy way out: Trolling.

    What about the not-so-happy-because-they-lost-all-methods-of-procreation-due-to-complications circumsized people?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  24. #234
    Dread, using the term MILITANT shows how you want to dismiss this, by demonizing one side. Won't work.

    Comparing infant ear lobe piercing to foreskin circumsion is doubly wrong. Different skins and procedures. Although I do agree neither should be performed on an infant, and both are considered cultural cosmetics, foreskin amputation is permanent---penile tissue won't grow back or repair itself. That's why it falls under the term MUTILATION.

  25. #235
    ear piercing ≠ circumsion

    Dread, listen to yourself.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 06-04-2010 at 04:09 PM.

  26. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    I refuse to believe you're this dense, but are just trolling/strawmanning, which is pretty damn lame from a moderator
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    Yeah, his brain is fried. And he still did no answer the question. I think it's because he does not have an answer and thus chooses the easy way out: Trolling.

    What about the not-so-happy-because-they-lost-all-methods-of-procreation-due-to-complications circumsized people?
    Once again: If you're a foreskin agnostic, you don't care if parents choose when a child is an infant. Just like if you're an ear piercing agnostic, you don't care if someone gets their baby's ear's pierced.

    If you're a foreskin militant, you keep asking the same incredulous question over and over because you can't imagine that someone could be a foreskin agnostic, despite the hundreds of millions of perfectly happy circumcised people.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Dread, using the term MILITANT shows how you want to dismiss this, by demonizing one side. Won't work.
    I'm doing quote the opposite. I'm trying to make it clear why different people have different views on this, and why one group (the militants) finds the other's simply unacceptable. I'm not using the word "militant" pejoratively.

  27. #237
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    Dread, I love ya but,

    ANSWER THE FRAKING QUESTION

    Even if you were 'agnostic' about, your kid might not be, so why not wait?

    It's unnecessary to do, you just can not admit that it is not an intellectually defensible thing to do.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  28. #238
    So are braces. I'm not going to wait for my kid to be 18 before I get him braces if needed,

  29. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    So are braces. I'm not going to wait for my kid to be 18 before I get him braces if needed,
    Beware the dentist trap. They sell more unnecessary crap than home shopping network.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  30. #240
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
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    BRACES????

    Really?

    Braces can be a necessary procedure...is circumcision?
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

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