Political Food?

[Aimless]

It's a sensitive situation. Clearly the person with the food doesn't think it stinks so badly. Much of the aversion may be due to cultural differences, and it can be difficult to handle such a situation without causing the other person to feel shame at (indirectly) being the subject of his colleagues' disgust. For some people, their food is a symbol of their culture and their background. I dunno, may be difficult to grasp for those white westerners who lack a proper food-culture, or those who have been cultured to value bland tastes and an absence of smell/scent. For many of my Bengal acquaintances, Bengal food means a great deal, and when people talk shit about it it's like having someone talk shit about your culture. It's kinda like going on about how the bullied kid in your class smells bad. It may be true, but you can be damned sure there's more to it besides an objective assessment of smell and a constructive desire to help, and you can often count on someone getting hurt.

The above may have little to do with your example, but my experience has been that the people who complain the most about the stink of other people's cooking have been the most racist in general. Anecdotal, I know, but it makes me wary whenever someone complains to me about some foreigner cooking in his corridor

[littlelolligagged]

Being rude should always be inappropriate.

Telling someone their food reeks is unacceptable in any situation. Just like it is unacceptably rude to sit down to dinner at someone's house and tell them you don't like what they are having.

That's the bottom line here, really. You eat what you are served. If you have an opportunity to make a choice, do it.

[Wraith]

Rude, I get. I've had people eat foul smelling foods around me before, and it's never occurred to me to say complain to them about it. Racist though, I don't buy.

[Khendraja'aro]

Being rude should always be inappropriate.

Telling someone their food reeks is unacceptable in any situation. Just like it is unacceptably rude to sit down to dinner at someone's house and tell them you don't like what they are having.

That's the bottom line here, really. You eat what you are served. If you have an opportunity to make a choice, do it.

However, when the kitchen is shared, it becomes a completely different matter, because there's NO CHOICE involved. Sorry, but making the kitchen absolutely unusable for several hours is not my idea of creating a peaceful environment of cohabitation.

Furthermore, that "cultural" angle is just a nice notion, but not actually grounded in reality. http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/...l.pcbi.1000740
Consider the French, who produce some really noxious cheese. However, they don't produce perfumes with cheese odor. Makes one wonder why, if the sense of smell was subjective.

And I did a little research on the dish in question - they all included words like "pungent" or "capricious odor". And all those people here who demand tolerance: What would you say if an Icelander opened a tin can of Hákarl in your kitchen? I mean, the polite Icelander opens that stuff only when being very far away from any sign of civilization.

Sorry, guys, but cultural tolerance only goes so far. Effectively locking several people out of the kitchen is not acceptable on my list. And Aimless, I'd really like you not to be snobbish about your eating culture. Because I don't like it when someone calls our dishes "bland" or that we "white westerners" lack a "proper food culture". Because YOU sure as hell are being RACIST right now, my dear. So, get the hell down from your high horse, because your shit doesn't smell like flowers either. Did I make myself clear?

Oh, and you may find it bland only because we don't drive the taste down your throat with a sledgehammer. So there!

I like it when people demand tolerance and then, in the same sentence even! commit the very same deed they accuse others of.

[Khendraja'aro]

Or, to drive the point home:

You have someone with body odour in your class. However, instead of actually telling him about it, everyone avoids the subject. And keeps clear as much as possible of the person in question.

How is this better? You have upheld your precious tolerance at the cost of the guys' integration into the class, as he'll have find it much harder to fit in.

Sorry, I'm a firm believer in "Get the issues out in the open" instead of "Let's only talk about it behind the person's back." Because in the long run, the latter approach is actually more sustainable.

I mean, are we to allow any and all foreign culture's habits? The Chinese snot rockets, for instance? And why exactly are we called upon to avoid offending foreigners when they are free to offend us?

"Respect is a strange river: It doesn't only go downstream but also upstream."

[littlelolligagged]

Rude, I get. I've had people eat foul smelling foods around me before, and it's never occurred to me to say complain to them about it. Racist though, I don't buy.

Racist is just stupid, yes.

[LittleFuzzy]

I take it, Minx, that you would be in favor of banning alcohol at wedding receptions? Since statistically speaking, at least one person there is going to be an alcoholic or recovering alcoholic, and putting an addict in that situation is way worse for them *whether they think so or not* than buttering a dinner roll in a vegan's presence.

[Cracky]

What ever happened to being courteous to guests?

[Khendraja'aro]

What ever happened to being courteous to guests?

I have no idea.

[Aimless]

Furthermore, that "cultural" angle is just a nice notion, but not actually grounded in reality. http://www.ploscompbiol.org/article/...l.pcbi.1000740
Consider the French, who produce some really noxious cheese. However, they don't produce perfumes with cheese odor. Makes one wonder why, if the sense of smell was subjective.

This is the strangest objection I have ever seen. Do you want your food to smell like perfume? Do you want your perfume to smell of steak? Bottom line is that few people willingly make food that they themselves consider to smell disgusting in the context of food. That you can use a machine to "reliably" discriminate between good and bad odours taken out of context doesn't change that.

Here, from the article you posted:

when tested out of context, odorant pleasantness is relatively constant across cultures as revealed here. To stress this point, we predict that if our odorants were presented to subjects within context, e.g., in foods, than the native Israeli and native Ethiopian participants may have then diverged in their pleasantness ratings. For example, peppermint may be rated as a pleasant smelling food in only one of two cultures. However, both cultures may then find peppermint equally pleasant when presented out of context in a jar. Indeed, many may wonder how the French can like the smell of their cheese. However, it is not that the French think the smell is pleasant per se, they merely think it is a sign of good cheese. To prove the point: the French don't make cheese smelling perfume! In other words, culture influences olfactory hedonics mostly in particular contexts. When out of context, odor pleasantness is less culturally variable, and we argue that it is this context-free component that was captured by our apparatus.

And all those people here who demand tolerance: What would you say if an Icelander opened a tin can of Hákarl in your kitchen? I mean, the polite Icelander opens that stuff only when being very far away from any sign of civilization.

I'm sure you'd have no problems explaining the problem to the Icelander. As you noted, even they wouldn't open a tin of that stuff in a corridor, because even they think that it's pretty rough, or remember how it was for them before they got used to it. Moreover, why are you comparing hakarl to whatever dish it is she was cooking? Was she fermenting fish or something??

And Aimless, I'd really like you not to be snobbish about your eating culture. Because I don't like it when someone calls our dishes "bland" or that we "white westerners" lack a "proper food culture". Because YOU sure as hell are being RACIST right now, my dear. So, get the hell down from your high horse, because your shit doesn't smell like flowers either. Did I make myself clear?

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. I specified a category of white westerners that lack a proper food culture or that prefer bland food, and who may therefore not get that sort of relationship with food or get how people might really enjoy strong-smelling foods. I didn't say that all white westerners lack proper food culture or that they prefer blandness, because that would be patently untrue. Who am I, someone who is pathologically intolerant and provocative??

On another note, I like German food, even though I'm told it's summat crude. It's hearty and tasty and if I could I'd have Bavarian breakfasts every day

Oh, and you may find it bland only because we don't drive the taste down your throat with a sledgehammer.

I'm pretty sure it's because you guys didn't have much in the way of spices until fairly recently.

Or, to drive the point home:

You have someone with body odour in your class. However, instead of actually telling him about it, everyone avoids the subject. And keeps clear as much as possible of the person in question.

How is this better? You have upheld your precious tolerance at the cost of the guys' integration into the class, as he'll have find it much harder to fit in.

Sorry, I'm a firm believer in "Get the issues out in the open" instead of "Let's only talk about it behind the person's back." Because in the long run, the latter approach is actually more sustainable.

To be honest, I've never seen a problem like that be resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but perhaps you have. What I do know is that talking about it behind his back isn't the only alternative to getting it out in the open. Of course, I've seen instances where people are more than willing to make it clear to a person that he smells bad, but with no results--so it became just another part of bullying, like telling a person he's ugly or that he's "weird".

And why exactly are we called upon to avoid offending foreigners when they are free to offend us?

What I was saying in my previous post was that they probably don't realise that they're offending you, and these things should therefore be handled with tact, not with your characteristic lack of it. You may argue that you didn't realise you may be offending them, or making them feel very very small and disgusting, and I'd buy that. Sometimes people just don't take those things into consideration. Eg. when they're so obsessed with how offended they've been, when they're so full of anger at the offense they have been given, by some foreigner no less. Man, some people are really really good at being really offended.

"Respect is a strange river: It doesn't only go downstream but also upstream."

Exactly, so maybe you should consider showing some respect for people by taking into consideration the possibility that they may not realise that they're causing you such great offense, and that they may be hurt by the way you bring it up.

I take it, Minx, that you would be in favor of banning alcohol at wedding receptions? Since statistically speaking, at least one person there is going to be an alcoholic or recovering alcoholic, and putting an addict in that situation is way worse for them *whether they think so or not* than buttering a dinner roll in a vegan's presence.

Er, what? I'm not sure that comparison has anything at all to do with the previous discussion of vegan weddings. Is the bride a recovering alcoholic?? A better comparison may be about expecting alcohol at a Muslim wedding, although I know that many Muslims don't mind if other people drink because what's important for them is that they follow the rules.

What ever happened to being courteous to guests?

What does being courteous to guests have to do with putting aside strongly held political or ideological views? What happened to being courteous to your hosts?

[Aimless]

But yes, I can concede that buttering a roll is probably not worse than drinking next to a recovering alcoholic who hasn't learned to deal with nearby alcohol

[Khendraja'aro]

I'm sure you'd have no problems explaining the problem to the Icelander. As you noted, even they wouldn't open a tin of that stuff in a corridor, because even they think that it's pretty rough, or remember how it was for them before they got used to it. Moreover, why are you comparing hakarl to whatever dish it is she was cooking? Was she fermenting fish or something??

I'll not bother to respond to the rubbish you posted except for this: You obviously did not read a word I wrote. Then you'd actually grasp why I used Hakarl for comparison.

Next time you try to argument your position, it pays if you actually pay attention to what the other side is saying.
And "German food" is crude and tasty? Right. Because Bavaria is all Germany consists of. You just showed your ignorance. And nice try at hiding your racist views.

And no spices until "fairly recently"? Right. There are a shitload of indigenious spices here and if you think Medieval Europe was "fairly recent" then you're really strange.

[Aimless]

I'll not bother to respond to the rubbish you posted except for this: You obviously did not read a word I wrote. Then you'd actually grasp why I used Hakarl for comparison.

Yes, I read it and concluded that it was probably not an appropriate comparison.

Next time you try to argument your position, it pays if you actually pay attention to what the other side is saying.

Dude, you didn't even read your own retarded article moreover, you've been more busy taking offense at my posts than trying to understand where I'm coming from.

And "German food" is crude and tasty? Right. Because Bavaria is all Germany consists of. You just showed your ignorance. And nice try at hiding your racist views.

I'm told German food is relatively crude, compared to eg. Italian or French cuisine. I personally find it very tasty. And I enjoy Bavarian breakfasts. What's your problem?

[Aimless]

And no spices until "fairly recently"? Right. There are a shitload of indigenious spices here and if you think Medieval Europe was "fairly recent" then you're really strange.

Okay congrats you guys have mustard and horseradish. Medieval Europe is pretty recent, esp. if you consider who had access to the imported spices.

Look, German food isn't known for being spicy. Why is that problem? It's just another kind of cuisine, spiciness isn't a requirement for being nice

[Khendraja'aro]

Yes, I read it and concluded that it was probably not an appropriate comparison.

You didn't smell it, so don't tell me what is an "appropriate" comparison. If some stink makes you want to hurl instantly, that is fairly bad, ain't it? Especially if one actually has a high tolerance towards bad smells.

Dude, you didn't even read your own retarded article moreover, you've been more busy taking offense at my posts than trying to understand where I'm coming from.

Dude, you didn't understand the effin' article in the first place, that's why you misquoted it. I mean, you obviously discounted dishes like Hakarl because that did not fit into your argument.

Please explain to me again why there's no cheese perfume?

I'm told German food is relatively crude, compared to eg. Italian or French cuisine. I personally find it very tasty. And I enjoy Bavarian breakfasts. What's your problem?

Right. You obviously have never actually been to Germany. Bavaria itself consists of several zones, each quite different (No, Munich is not representative of Bavaria). The rest of Germany then again is vastly different from Bavaria.

In effect, there is no "German" food. It does not exist. There's no "national cuisine", there's no "national dish", nothing like that, zip, zilch, nada, rien. Unless you want to go with the foreigners' naive view of "Eisbein und Sauerkraut" which, frankly, you'll be actually quite hard-pressed to find on the menus of restaurants.

Okay congrats you guys have mustard and horseradish. Medieval Europe is pretty recent, esp. if you consider who had access to the imported spices.

Look, German food isn't known for being spicy. Why is that problem? It's just another kind of cuisine, spiciness isn't a requirement for being nice

Because you got all snobbish: "Oh, look, we've got all these spices, and your food tastes bland, bah!" One could actually say that you only use those massive amounts of spices because your meat would taste rotten otherwise.

[Aimless]

Dude, you didn't understand the effin' article in the first place, that's why you misquoted it. I mean, you obviously discounted dishes like Hakarl because that did not fit into your argument.

Please explain to me again why there's no cheese perfume?

YOU misquoted it, and it's clear that YOU didn't understand the article any more than you understood what I was saying (because if you had understood that you'd never have posted that article ). I didn't MISquote anything, I took the entire passage from the text of the article. I love the smell of steak but I don't want to smell like steak. Steak smells delicious in the context of food, and it signals yummy food in that context. In the context of body-odor it signals something else entirely. For some vegetarians vegans, the smell of steak is quite unpleasant even in the context of food.

I dismissed your hakarl example because I assume even Icelandic people know that it's pretty rough, much like how Swedes know very well that the smell of fermented baltic herring straight out of the tin is quite vile.

Right. You obviously have never actually been to Germany. Bavaria itself consists of several zones, each quite different (No, Munich is not representative of Bavaria). The rest of Germany then again is vastly different from Bavaria.

Yes, I know this, but I've never had "German breakfast" I have been to Germany, I wasn't too keen on most of the breakfast-foods I encountered there, and tbh my favourite foods from that trip was Turkish mmm...

In effect, there is no "German" food. It does not exist. There's no "national cuisine", there's no "national dish", nothing like that, zip, zilch, nada, rien. Unless you want to go with the foreigners' naive view of "Eisbein und Sauerkraut" which, frankly, you'll be actually quite hard-pressed to find on the menus of restaurants.

Yes, it varies greatly from one region to the next, and I think it's safe to say very few--if any--of those regions are known for spicy hot cuisine. What the hell are you on about anyway?

Because you got all snobbish: "Oh, look, we've got all these spices, and your food tastes bland, bah!" One could actually say that you only use those massive amounts of spices because your meat would taste rotten otherwise.

Which may have been true once upon a time, but hasn't been true for a while--and yet we still have spicy food. Isn't that strange? Maybe it's because we have a long tradition of spicy food that isn't likely to change simply because we have fresh meat

[Aimless]

Eh, look, I didn't mean to say that your food is BAD because it may be bland, I meant simply that for a person who is used to relatively bland food (while the word may have negative connotations, I was using it it to refer to relatively unspicy food) the love of spicy or strong-smelling food may be difficult to get. I like spicy food, but tbh I like food in general. Most of the snobbery in this regard, that I have encountered, has been on the part of some of my Swedish friends and acquaintances, who've been inclined to dismiss eg. Indian food as lacking in "subtlety" or intended to disguise bad flavours.

[Aimless]

But you may wish to reflect on just how upset you were by this exchange--and I didn't even call your food disgusting or smelly. Now imagine how it might feel if you moved to my corridor and we told you your food was smelly and offensive to us. It's not easy

[Khendraja'aro]

YOU misquoted it, and it's clear that YOU didn't understand the article any more than you understood what I was saying (because if you had understood that you'd never have posted that article ). I didn't MISquote anything, I took the entire passage from the text of the article. I love the smell of steak but I don't want to smell like steak. Steak smells delicious in the context of food, and it signals yummy food in that context. In the context of body-odor it signals something else entirely. For some vegetarians vegans, the smell of steak is quite unpleasant even in the context of food.

Actually, no, you still did not understand it. It's the other way around: Some bad smells are partly overridden due to cultural context. If you take away that context, only the bad smell remains. You're mixing up subjective und objective signals here - you'll always know when something smells rotten, regardless of cultural context. You'll always know when something smell sweet and appetizing. You'll always know when something smells dangerous.

The sense of smell itself still remains objective. Bad stays bad. And I'm pretty sure that you'll have to fight very hard to get a child to eat bad-smelling food. There's no "cultural sense of smell". All there is, is a Pawlowian retraining of your interpretation of that smell.

But you may wish to reflect on just how upset you were by this exchange--and I didn't even call your food disgusting or smelly. Now imagine how it might feel if you moved to my corridor and we told you your food was smelly and offensive to us. It's not easy

Some of those goody two shoes told me that some of my dishes might smell pungent to her. Idiotic notion.

And, well, if you don't inform yourself before moving to another culture and simply assume that you can continue all your ways in another culture, that's pretty naive. I mean, go to Indonesia and talk trash about the monarch family. Giving a straight "no" to a Chinese would be another mistake. And so on and so forth.

Expecting that you can cook everything you want in a foreign country? Especially when you know that it is strong-smelling? Sorry, not much excuse for that.

[Nessus]

Pavlovian

[Aimless]

There's no "cultural sense of smell". All there is, is a Pawlowian retraining of your interpretation of that smell.

Smell, like taste and even pain, has a strong psychological component, which may be influenced by culture (eg. what you're exposed to, how you interpret it, how you react to it, how you express your feelings about it)

I didn't realise we were talking about people who consumed spoiled meat as a part of their day-to-day diet or brought rotten food to work, even whille they themselves consider it vile. All I can say is that you must have encountered some very strange people.

And, well, if you don't inform yourself before moving to another culture and simply assume that you can continue all your ways in another culture, that's pretty naive. I mean, go to Indonesia and talk trash about the monarch family. Giving a straight "no" to a Chinese would be another mistake. And so on and so forth.

Expecting that you can cook everything you want in a foreign country? Especially when you know that it is strong-smelling? Sorry, not much excuse for that.

You really will go to great lengths to justify your lack of empathy and your lack of tact, won't you I mean, a normal person might say, "Ah, yeah I can see how it might be tricky. We should perhaps try to inform the offender of how we feel without hurting her feelings and without making a big fuss."

It's funny though. Clearly you'll expect her to conform to your desires because you find the smell offensive and she can probably find something less smelly to cook. It makes sense, kinda like the vegan wedding I just recalled that that's why we're talking about this.

[termite]

ANECDOTE WARNING:

I met two women in their ninety's on Sunday, they're my Grandmothers sisters.

At around 70 they both became vegans and there they were still standing at 92 and 91 respectively - do we claim now that turning Vegan at 70 gave them longevity?

Certainly PETA would, as did the old girls themselves, as would others no doubt. But what if I told you that their father was a butcher that ate mostly meat his entire life and he lived to the ripe (but still disappointed) age of 99?

It's the Genes, not the Beans.

What I loved about this little anecdote though was that the ladies told everyone they were vegans but did not protest us eating all the fine, delicious creations made from an array of dead critters. Nor did they suggest to anyone else that they should do as they have and live on the lesser living creatures (veges).

No, they had very good manners.

[LittleFuzzy]

Er, what? I'm not sure that comparison has anything at all to do with the previous discussion of vegan weddings. Is the bride a recovering alcoholic?? A better comparison may be about expecting alcohol at a Muslim wedding, although I know that many Muslims don't mind if other people drink because what's important for them is that they follow the rules.

But putting the addict at risk is an actual objective harm. I'm also trying to work out that logic system Illusions was trying to grasp. Surely putting someone at objective risk ranks higher than the abstract harm from challenging a person's principles, yes? Even for Vegans, causing harm to another person generally ranks higher than participating in a system which mistreats animals.

[LittleFuzzy]

But yes, I can concede that buttering a roll is probably not worse than drinking next to a recovering alcoholic who hasn't learned to deal with nearby alcohol

Uh. . . that you're successfully controlling yourself at the moment does not mean it's no longer a threat.

edit: Oh, and denigrating those "without a real food culture" is still racist.

[Aimless]

In that case perhaps the recovering alcoholic should stay away from a wedding where he may encounter alcohol if you're referring to my answer to Illusion's vegan trial, then there's a chance I'd conclude that someone should give way if it's necessary--either that the alcoholic should stay away, if he doesn't feel comfortable about being around alcohol and feels that nothing can help him deal with it, or the hosts, if they don't feel like having a wedding without their buddy.

[Aimless]

I'm honestly not sure why we'd approach this sort of thing as a problem that can be answered prior to an eventual conflict without knowing how any of the parties involved feel about the matter. Re. the alcoholic, he can decide that he can handle the wedding, or he can decide that he can't and choose not to attend--in which case his hosts shouldn't hassle him about it, not if they understand his reasons, which are strong.

[LittleFuzzy]

In that case perhaps the recovering alcoholic should stay away from a wedding where he may encounter alcohol if you're referring to my answer to Illusion's vegan trial, then there's a chance I'd conclude that someone should give way if it's necessary--either that the alcoholic should stay away, if he doesn't feel comfortable about being around alcohol and feels that nothing can help him deal with it, or the hosts, if they don't feel like having a wedding without their buddy.

I'm not talking about his examples, I'm talking about your logic. And let me reiterate what I said. SOMEONE *more likely multiple someones* at every reception is going to be an alcoholic, "recovering" or not, statistically speaking. Unless the bride or groom are one of those *and not "recovering" in the slightest* there's probably no principle or conviction demanding the presence of alcohol. So we should just get rid of it entirely, right?

[Aimless]

I'm not talking about his examples, I'm talking about your logic. And let me reiterate what I said. SOMEONE *more likely multiple someones* at every reception is going to be an alcoholic, "recovering" or not, statistically speaking. Unless the bride or groom are one of those *and not "recovering" in the slightest* there's probably no principle or conviction demanding the presence of alcohol. So we should just get rid of it entirely, right?

Maybe we can wait for the alcoholics to bring up the matter and then they and the hosts can have a discussion is there a principle or conviction that demands the attendance of these particular alcoholics?

[Aimless]

I'm trying and failing to understand where we're not getting each other, or on which point we disagree. Does it have something to do with my categorical assertion that politics or ideology always trumps everything else, a priori?

[LittleFuzzy]

I'm trying and failing to understand where we're not getting each other, or on which point we disagree. Does it have something to do with my categorical assertion that politics or ideology always trumps everything else, a priori?

If you believe they also trump reality, then yes. I'm not talking about some negotiation between two parties. Alcoholics are going to be at wedding receptions. It will happen, it will happen frequently. Because there are a lot of them. Often enough they will be key guests.