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Thread: Taxation and Morality

  1. #1

    Default Taxation and Morality

    THURSDAY, JULY 29, 2010

    Taxation and Morality


    Not long ago, I went to a local school board meeting in the town where I live north of New York City. The meeting was about the proposed school budget, which voters in our town get to vote on. Our district was spending $28,000 per student, and I got up to the microphone and suggested this was too high, and that high property taxes were starting to have a pernicious effect on the town. Cue the disapproving shaking of heads. He wants to take money from our children!

    The next woman got up to the mic and said that we needed large school budgets to protect our home values. Then she declared those of us in opposition as "greedy." What I wish I had then said was this:

    This town has been unfailingly generous to the school system for decades. In fact, the growth in the school budget has been close to 8%, far outpacing inflation. And yes, while good schools help home values, there reaches a tipping point where high taxes hurt more than good schools help. We passed that tipping point long ago. Now, property taxes are crushing our home values. Just as importantly, they are changing the culture of our town. We are becoming a temporary residence for people with school age children. They stay as long as they have kids in school, then leave. Retirees, who had paid off their mortgages years ago, can no longer remain because of property taxes. The voraciousness of the school system is slowly destroying our town from the inside, and yet you call me greedy?

    The point here is that there is a moral and social component to keeping taxes low - it's not simply about individuals wanting to keep more money in their pockets. This is an argument that, in particular, Republicans need to hear, because while they profess to like low taxes, they retreat into their turtle shells every time a Democrat yells, "Tax cuts are for the rich!"

    Republicans understand that tax moderation spurs economic activity. But not all possess the philosophical underpinning that gives one the confidence to fend off specious attacks. Many don't, in a nutshell, understand the morality of their own position. This makes them weak advocates.

    My town is a great example. Taxes are driving away the elderly and actually breaking up multi generational families. The town is slowly losing its unique culture and institutional memory. Oh, and yes, our home values are getting crushed, but that's not an argument that the left is particularly concerned with. Playing on their pitch, though, they are supposed to be concerned with things like culture and population diversity. So they tell us, almost constantly. And yet their position on matters of tax runs counter to their own goals.

    I remember Reagan's trickle down thesis being mocked, but history shows us over and over again that it is precisely how the world works, and thank goodness for that. Job creation - from CEO down to night janitor - doesn't happen without business creation. Business creation doesn't happen unless those that have capital (the rich!) can be enticed to remove it from the comfort of a bank account and risk it on some new enterprise. There has to be a reward in it, in other words.

    That taxes affect economic behavior would seem to be straightforward enough, but policy makers rarely stop to consider it. Remember the Clinton era luxury tax? It was applied to expensive cars and boats, and the intent was to get more money out of rich people. Do you remember what happened? Rich people stopped buying. In particular, they stopped buying boats. The immediate and unintended consequence of this was that shipyards in Maine went out of business and lots of workers were thrown out of work. Rich people can do just fine without a boat, middle class workers cannot do fine without employment. Where's the morality in that?

    There exists, I would suggest, a "taxation morality curve" that may look like this:


    Sometimes concepts are understood most easily if one looks at the most extreme examples first. Zero taxation anywhere in society - the left edge of my graph - gets a score of "zero" morality. Government couldn't exist, and therefore there would be no property rights or assurance of liberty. Society would be dominated by well armed thieves. This is not conjecture, we can see it today in places like Mogadishu that have no functioning government.
    The other end of the spectrum - full confiscatory taxation - produces the same result. At a 100% marginal tax rate, the entire economy would operate on the black market. Government couldn't exist since it couldn't collect anything. Thus, again, we would have a society dominated by thieves and violent anarchy. Justice would be a distant notion. I will also give this society a morality score of zero.

    Since we know it is possible to construct a moral society somewhere in between, it therefore has to be that there exists a morality curve. This is interesting, because it is then a given that some taxation is highly moral. It pays for the things we need to preserve our rights and liberty. Rights are preserved, for instance, by the existence of our legal system, which must be supported by courts, public prosecutors, etc. Our liberty is preserved by a system of national defense as well as domestic law enforcement. These are not the only examples, but they are certainly the most important.

    What's more interesting, though, is that after a certain point, marginal taxation necessarily decreases societal morality. If the curve ends up at zero, it has to go into decline at some point. As with property taxes in my town, taxation manufactures immoral outcomes. Those immoral outcomes fall hardest on the working classes, not the rich.

    It is no coincidence that my graph looks a whole lot like the Laffer Curve, which postulates that after a certain level of taxation, revenues decline. The existence of the Laffer Curve - as well as the Morality Curve - cannot be in doubt. The open issue is the shape of these curves, i.e. at what point of taxation does revenue or morality decline? I believe the "real" morality curve (and Laffer Curve) looks something like this:


    But back to the process. How, exactly, does taxation create immorality. If you have been following these letters, you know I have looked extensively at state-by-state fiscal and taxation comparisons. Many states like New York, California, and Illinois are in dire straits and need to close enormous budget gaps. Many want to raise marginal rates, particularly on top earners. This is a bad idea with a highly immoral outcome.

    Witness the recent experience of Maryland, where the state legislature raised the top rate on millionaire households to 6.25% from 4.75%. Using static analysis - which postulates that behavior is never affected by rate changes - they estimated that they would collect an extra $106 million in revenue. Instead tax receipts from rich filers - wait for it - fell by $257 million.

    The number of millionaires filing fell by a whopping 30%. Certainly, some had income declines, but fully 12% didn't file, suggesting that most had just up and left. I'm guessing Florida is the beneficiary. (See: http://thenakeddollar.blogspot.com/2...-what-not.html.) You see, the people who have the most resources - and pay the lion's share of the taxes - are precisely the ones that can leave the easiest. In all likelihood, they already have homes in other states. Rush Limbaugh moving to Florida is costing New York close to $50 million over the life of his contract. How many dock workers or bus drivers do you need to cover that loss? LeBron James not coming to New York cost the state $12 million.

    I'm not asking you to feel sorry for LeBron, Rush, or any of the other rich folks. Yes, it's immoral that they have to base where they live based on something as ridiculous as tax rates, but they'll get along somehow. What's really immoral is what happens to the people who don't have the same ability to live where they want. If you run a hedge fund, you can do it from anywhere. If you depend on others for your employment, you can try to move, but you'd have to find someone else willing to hire you. Good luck with that right now.

    Businesses are also much more mobile than in the past. Once upon a time, if the state of Michigan raised taxes on the auto industry, they could count on GM (et al) to swallow hard and pony up. Now, they can outsource. Take a look at Detroit and tell me that's not exactly what happened:


    But more to the point, today's businesses are more information based. Why does an internet company need to be based in New York? It can move tomorrow.

    So what happens is that the lower rungs of the economic ladder are left holding the bag. Taxes spiral upward and services are systematically cut. Poverty and crime escalate, people suffer. If we accept that human misery is a form of immorality - at least, when we know we could have prevented it - then you understand how high levels of taxation are immoral.

    This is a message that all Republicans need to internalize. Only then will they become effective advocates. (Incidentally, I'm not being partisan here. I welcome Democrats to internalize it, too. I'm just not holding my breath.)


    This guy seems to rebut his own argument about morality: it's not the taxes doing damage so much as the behaviors of avoiding taxes.

    Yes, it's immoral that they have to base where they live based on something as ridiculous as tax rates, but they'll get along somehow.

    He's spot on about property taxes for schools and how it impacts communities and the elderly, though that might be because the tax is on the wrong thing (property), than a tax funding public education.


    Poverty and crime escalate, people suffer. If we accept that human misery is a form of immorality...

    According to him, the rich need to spend more money, to Trickle Down, and create jobs for the bottom feeders. But they won't spend if they're taxed too much; ie, it's the taxes that are immoral, not the rich denying employment underneath their station.

    Currently there's about $1.3 TRILLION of corporate cash sitting around, not hiring the unemployed or expanding their companies. They would rather use cheap labor over-seas, or stay lean with profits on efficiency, and say they're waiting for upcoming tax changes. GOP claims to be deficit hawks, but not letting Bush's tax cuts expire would add about $2 TRILLION to our deficit.

    Now I'm going to ask about Economic Morality in a different way than the author---if you knew outsourcing jobs, or refusing a return to 90s tax rates would still make you wealthy but strangle the middle or lower classes, and therefore your whole country---what would you do?

    http://thenakeddollar.blogspot.com/2...-morality.html

  2. #2
    Pimpin' my thread. Companion piece is written by a liberal wonk, who refers to this (taxation, in part) as Common Sense instead of Morality:

    Now Washington is bracing for a donnybrook over the upcoming expiration of the Bush tax cuts. Democrats want to extend them for everyone making under $250,000. Republicans, straying from their reborn faith in balanced budgets at the first glimpse of a tax cut, are planning to go to the mats for extending cuts for the wealthy.

    Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.) describes the debate as "a dress rehearsal" for the 2012 presidential race, suggesting it reflects radically different images of American society. According to Ryan, the fundamental question would be, "Do we want to have an opportunity society with a safety net or a cradle-to-grave society with a welfare state?"

    Put aside the fact that Republicans are voting en masse against a safety net -- even unemployment insurance -- for the "opportunity society," or that Democrats are a far remove from proposing a cradle-to-grave welfare state. The problem with Ryan's formulation is that it reflects an old, outmoded debate, not the reality facing us now.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...080302986.html



    Another article, sent by a friend. This time the author was a director of Reagan's OMB.

    IF there were such a thing as Chapter 11 for politicians, the Republican push to extend the unaffordable Bush tax cuts would amount to a bankruptcy filing. The nation’s public debt — if honestly reckoned to include municipal bonds and the $7 trillion of new deficits baked into the cake through 2015 — will soon reach $18 trillion. That’s a Greece-scale 120 percent of gross domestic product, and fairly screams out for austerity and sacrifice. It is therefore unseemly for the Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, to insist that the nation’s wealthiest taxpayers be spared even a three-percentage-point rate increase.
    He uses terms like doctrine, philosophy, principle, fiscal religion.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/01/op...n&st=cse&scp=1
    Last edited by GGT; 08-04-2010 at 10:21 PM.

  3. #3
    Another bump on inner morality and forced ethics, or how do we get there? Or something else that seems to be uninteresting to everyone here but me?

    http://www.openyear.org/category/earners/



    What you earn makes consumption of Windows, Coca Cola, Google Ads, or iPhones, by those who depend on you, possible. Billionaires don’t become billionaires based on salary, they earn based on the trickle up of the consumption you enable, combined with ownership of a large percentage of a company’s stock. You turn their genius into wealth.

    Billionaires are like everyone else, they may know the right thing to do intellectually, but to get them to actually do it, takes nudging.
    Chances are your local billionaire already has a favored philanthropy. Point out that opening his pay will very likely help him to achieve his philanthropic goals faster. Using the Gates Foundation, as an example, epidemiological research shows that 40% of the problem areas on which they’re focused are, themselves, exacerbated by gross inequality, itself. The adjacent table shows the match up.
    Let your local billionaire know that the middle class is hurting, and they have a responsibility not just to the poor, but also to the middle, who put them where they are. To paraphrase Warren Buffett, “If you’re in the luckiest 1 per cent of humanity, you owe it to the rest of humanity to act on behalf of the other 99 percent.
    Plus some cool charts on Billionaires. So, IMO, it's time to let the Bush tax cuts expire (as they were designed), at least for the top 5% income earners. These guys could live to be 100 since they can buy the best health care, and find estate loopholes. Not sure we could/should wait that long for them to find their conscience.

  4. #4
    That doesn't make the case at all.

    Inequality in dollar terms matters less compared to overall standard of living (however you choose to measure it). The mere presence of billionaires doesn't exacerbate diseases that the Gates Foundation is tackling like malaria.

  5. #5
    Is that what you took away from the last link? But if you want to go by standard of living over the last decade or two, then look at the tripling of income for the top 2%, and the decline in real buying power for the rest of the 98%, mostly for the middle class.

    So I'll repeat, I think it's bogus to suggest that if we let Bush's tax cuts expire for the top income earners, it will be a bullet in their heads, or kill the economy's recovery.

  6. #6
    That's the part you highlighted.

    The brunt of the 2003 tax cuts dealt with dividend and capital gains taxes. Those are honestly the ones I'm most concerned about.

    But I think it's dangerous to assume that wealth is a zero sum game; unless your neighbor is doing two jobs at once, their prosperity doesn't harm you.

  7. #7
    The intention was to highlight Warren Buffet's quote. $1.5 TRILLION is sitting on the sidelines, those profits have already been realized. The dialogue between politicians is how to keep the tax cuts for middle class (that rely on dividends and capital gains) while letting the Bush exclusion expire for the upper echelon. Because they don't really need it as much as their secretary.

    I'm tired of the disingenuous fear-mongering aimed straight at anyone with a 401-K, IRA or mutual fund. Pretty much everyone agrees that the middle class can't pay a 35% rate, but a millionaire/billionaire probably can. They did just fine paying 35% or even 50% years ago, it didn't stop the Mellons or Carnegies from making insane amounts of money, and it won't stop the Buffets or Gateses either.

  8. #8
    Sharing the commentary that slightly pissed me off:

    http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mone...ead%3Fpage%3D2

    Chamber economist: Obama tax increase would be 'bullet in the head' of recovery
    By Jay Heflin - 08/16/10 01:57 PM ET

    U.S. Chamber of Commerce economist Martin Regalia on Monday said the tax increases advocated by President Obama would essentially kill any chance for an economic rebound.

    "That's what you're suggesting, is a corporate bullet in the head," Regalia said. "That is going to be a bullet in the head for an awful lot of people that are going to be laid off and an awful lot of people who are hoping to get their jobs back."

    Regalia made the comment at an American Petroleum Institute event on the tax increases proposed by the Obama administration. Much of the discussion focused on tax cuts enacted by President George W. Bush that are slated to expire at the end of the year.

    Obama has suggested continuing the breaks that benefit the middle class and most small businesses while allowing tax cuts for wealthier entities to expire. Regalia said that plan will fail to boost economic demand.

    "The thing [the administration] sees the least about the economy are the synergies," he said. "Many of these small businesses sell into big business. ... Saying 'I'm going to stimulate the small part of the economy and not the big part of the economy' is a fool's error. It's almost impossible to do."

    Lawmakers are expected to begin debating the fate of the Bush tax cuts in earnest when they return from the August break. Regalia expects a contentious midterm election will keep the issue on the back burner until after ballots are cast in November.

    "We're entering a hot and heavy campaign season that is likely to be noteworthy in terms of the amount of effort spent by both sides," he said. "That complicates, I think tremendously, whether we actually get something done. It's hard to envision handling this particular issue in the heat of the campaign."

    Others have made similar predictions. If accurate, lawmakers will have less than two months to wrap up what will surely be a testy debate over extending the tax breaks.

    Unlike other tax provisions Congress is looking to extend, the Bush tax cuts affect marginal rates. These rates determine the level of taxes that are taken out of paychecks.

    If the debate slips into next year, companies in January will automatically increase the amount of taxes withheld from paychecks.

    The tax increase is already in law and can only be avoided if Congress moves to extend the breaks before Jan. 1.

    "If you were to allow [the tax cuts] to expire with some sort of [promise that] we're going to address them first thing on the docket in February, then the paychecks and the write downs, your depreciation and all that stuff is immediately affected as of the first day of January," Regalia said, adding that the tax increase will be a huge impediment for economic growth.

    "If we don't get the economy growing at more than 3 percent, we will not reemploy the people that have been displaced," he said. "They will die in their current status."
    See that folks? A bullet in the head, kiliing the economy! The workers looking for jobs will DIE if the top earners don't get to keep their tax cut! Because, you see, they will only hire and expand, innovate and invest, if they get special treatment on their billions.

    That's not much better than when the Big Banks held the whole nation (hell, the global financial system) hostage, freaking everyone out, leading to TARP and HAMP and their spawn. Help us out or we'll take the whole economy down as we go!. It's extortion, wielding their political clout. They won't play capitalism unless they get corporatism, they're gonna hold all their toys until they get what they want, and dammit! they already paid top dollar for their lobbyists. Awww, poor babies.


  9. #9
    The capital gains and dividend tax rates will impact the long-term savings and income of millions of Americans.

  10. #10
    Not to mention that the 3% of American taxpayers who will be caught by the higher income tax brackets account for some one quarter of US consumption.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    The capital gains and dividend tax rates will impact the long-term savings and income of millions of Americans.
    That's why it makes sense to delineate between billionaires, millionaires, and the middle classes. It's insane that Buffet pays 15% tax on his enormous income of dividends and capital gains, while his secretary is in a higher tax bracket for her labor wages. We'd all like the tax code to be simpler, but it should also be logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Not to mention that the 3% of American taxpayers who will be caught by the higher income tax brackets account for some one quarter of US consumption.
    Their consumption (of luxury items and services) isn't going to lead us out of this recession. They still made money just fine during the Clinton and Reagan eras, pre-Bush tax cuts. Those cuts were designed to expire after ten years. Now that we've got more billionaires than ever, but a shrinking and strapped middle class, it's time to tax top 2% income the same as a secretary's.

    Besides, the other 97% of people account for the remaining three quarters of US consumption. We can give those folks a tax cut, keep their dividend and capital gains at 15%.

    On the morality side of things, what kind of country do people want to see the US become?

    It's hard to imagine an upper echelon that wants to see fire departments closed, police and teachers laid off, street lights dark, roads unpaved and crumbling.....expecting the middle classes to fund these things with flat or stagnant wages, while the wealthy has seen their income triple in a decade. All those laid off workers compound municipal short-falls, and the vicious cycle continues. High unemployment means more folks applying for food aid, housing aid, Medicaid--tapping the very things taxes fund.

    The top 3% can hire private security, send kids to private schools, escape to their third home in Bermuda, shop at Tiffany's and Sak's. It's the rest of the nation that suffers without tax-funded public services, crappy schools and roads, higher crime, shopping at Walmart.

  12. #12
    Why should the secretary pay higher taxes on her savings, investments and income?

    If Buffet had salaried income, he would pay an income tax. But it's not as if he's not paying an enormous amount in taxes that dwarfs what the secretary is paying. We can't just keep on trying to soak the rich.

    It's unethical to punish money just for the sake of making it. And, as I've said elsewhere, historically (at least in the US) you reach a resistance point if you just keep on trying to raise taxes.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Why should the secretary pay higher taxes on her savings, investments and income?

    If Buffet had salaried income, he would pay an income tax. But it's not as if he's not paying an enormous amount in taxes that dwarfs what the secretary is paying. We can't just keep on trying to soak the rich.

    It's unethical to punish money just for the sake of making it. And, as I've said elsewhere, historically (at least in the US) you reach a resistance point if you just keep on trying to raise taxes.
    It's easy to argue your point by portraying things in your own perspective.

    The secretary pays more percentage of her worth in taxes than Buffet does. That is what I argue as unfair. If everyone were able to support themselves on return on investment then nobody would work. And it's not fair to punnish those who must slave for a living by taxing them more on there labor than on other sources of personal revenue.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Why should the secretary pay higher taxes on her savings, investments and income?
    Yeah, why should she pay higher combined percentage than her billionaire employer?

    If Buffet had salaried income, he would pay an income tax. But it's not as if he's not paying an enormous amount in taxes that dwarfs what the secretary is paying. We can't just keep on trying to soak the rich.
    He makes a token salary of around $100,000 if I recall. It's not "soaking the rich" by asking them to pay more than 15% tax on their investment income. We can't just keep on draining the middle class.

    It's unethical to punish money just for the sake of making it. And, as I've said elsewhere, historically (at least in the US) you reach a resistance point if you just keep on trying to raise taxes.
    I don't see it as "punishment" for making money. The resistance point has already come for middle income people that's tapped out, not the upper 1-3%. It's unethical to expect the lower 97% to carry a higher tax burden as a % of their income. That's why we've argued about a flat tax or VAT that hits lower to moderate income people harder than the wealthy.

    The wealthy did well, their money made money at a time when workers were losing ground, and they'll do fine in the future without Bush's cuts extended. Tiny violins.



    Letting the Bush tax cuts expire won't traumatize the stock market

    By Allan Sloan
    Wednesday, August 18, 2010

    One of the areas where letting the cuts lapse would have the biggest impact is taxes on investment income, much of which goes to a relative handful of very-high-income people. Under President Obama's plan, dividends for "the rich" would be taxed at the same rate as long-term capital gains, which will be 20 percent, rising later to 23.8 percent, up from the current 15 percent.

    Dire predictions abound. History suggests, however, that while the top tax rate on investment income may be a factor driving financial markets, it isn't the factor. A case in point: the 2003 tax cut. It set dividend taxes for the high-bracket crowd at preferential rates for the first time and brought the rate on long-term capital gains to its lowest point since 1941, according to the tax publishing firm CCH.

    .....

    From the start of the income tax through 2003, dividends were taxed as regular income, and capital gains were treated far less favorably than now. Somehow both the republic and the financial markets survived. They'll survive higher rates, too.

    Allan Sloan is Fortune magazine's senior editor at large.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081705638.html

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    It's easy to argue your point by portraying things in your own perspective.

    The secretary pays more percentage of her worth in taxes than Buffet does. That is what I argue as unfair. If everyone were able to support themselves on return on investment then nobody would work. And it's not fair to punnish those who must slave for a living by taxing them more on there labor than on other sources of personal revenue.
    My own perspective? You think I'm a billionaire stock investor?

    You forget that capital gains taxes are also added to dividend taxes. And I also think the secretary is probably paying too much in taxes.

    The main reason we have higher income tax rates than capital gains/dividends is become income is "sticky". It's harder to disincentivize people to have a job. But it is easier to make it less worthwhile to invest and save.

    And also don't forget that dividend taxes impact ordinary CDs, bonds and savings accounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Yeah, why should she pay higher combined percentage than her billionaire employer?

    He makes a token salary of around $100,000 if I recall. It's not "soaking the rich" by asking them to pay more than 15% tax on their investment income. We can't just keep on draining the middle class.

    I don't see it as "punishment" for making money. The resistance point has already come for middle income people that's tapped out, not the upper 1-3%. It's unethical to expect the lower 97% to carry a higher tax burden as a % of their income. That's why we've argued about a flat tax or VAT that hits lower to moderate income people harder than the wealthy.

    The wealthy did well, their money made money at a time when workers were losing ground, and they'll do fine in the future without Bush's cuts extended. Tiny violins.
    When the stocks in everyone's 401ks have reduced volume and dividend payouts because of taxation, what will the middle class do then? And when everyday saver's lose an additional 100% of their lifetime income on their humble CDs to taxes, what will the middle class do then?

    I find it sort of surprising that you don't see the immense middle class benefit these tax cuts had.

  16. #16
    The proposal is to keep the investment tax rates for anyone earning under $250,000 at 15%, but bump it up to *gasp* 20% for those earning more. That way a CEO can't hide behind a falsely low salary while making millions of gains in dividends and stock sales (Buffet) just to take the lower tax rate that should be afforded his secretary.

    I'm surprised you don't get this.

    The problem for everyday saver's and their CD deposits isn't just taxes, it's what the Fed has done to interest rates and monetary policy. The humble savers saw their 401-Ks and mutual funds ruined by the Masters of the Universe that leveraged up Wall Street and Big Banks, not just taxes.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    My own perspective? You think I'm a billionaire stock investor?
    Wannabe? Yes.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  18. #18
    Back to the morality or ethical angle. I'm confused about the wealthy whining, or special interests using their DEATH terminology. It's frustrating to know nearly $2 TRILLION in private wealth is purposely hoarding, lobbying the politicians for special treatments, threatening to move operations over seas. They have the ability to jump start the economy right now, without any gummint hand-holding, but they aren't.

    We had another thread a while ago about the moral choices between pink slips or keeping people employed but cutting wages, what a CEO is expected to "suffer" along with the employees, do shareholders come first or the business ethic of treating employees well, customers even better?

    Not many are talking about what our country is becoming (divided, two-tier, haves and have nots) or what it might look like if things like infrastructure, education, fire and police are left to rot. A certain amount of taxes have to be paid to keep public works and a degree of civility. It's almost nauseating to hear the uber wealthy whine and moan about taxes.

  19. #19
    Investment does not sustain this society, labor does.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  20. #20
    There's been a labor shift, though. CEOs brag about saving $30,000 by firing one secretary and using a smartphone or Blackberry instead. They can use robotics or outsource cheap labor to China or India, paring down the work force to its smallest size. That raises "productivity" but leaves gaping holes in our society with high unemployment. Then the CEO lives in a gated community, flies in private corporate jets, buys second homes in other countries, hides money in off-shore accounts.

    Then wonders why the nation is stumbling.

  21. #21
    I'm confused about the wealthy whining, or special interests using their DEATH terminology. It's frustrating to know nearly $2 TRILLION in private wealth is purposely hoarding, lobbying the politicians for special treatments, threatening to move operations over seas.
    Hoarding? LOL They are being cautious due to the rampant increase in regulation and government control of the economy. They are worried about weather or not the economy is going to recovery. And "they" are not a monolithic entity!

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Hoarding? LOL They are being cautious due to the rampant increase in regulation and government control of the economy. They are worried about weather or not the economy is going to recovery. And "they" are not a monolithic entity!
    *whether*

    Holding, hoarding, whatever. "They" are contributing to the negative cycle, waiting around for the gummint to extend them special privileges. Tail wagging the dog? Instead, they could be plowing ahead as innovators, investing in society's future, growing their wealth that way.


  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    *whether*
    Don't rub it in. We all know he is not any better educated then a public school fourth grader.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    Investment does not sustain this society, labor does.
    Riiiiiiiiight. Remind me how labor-rich areas do? Africa? Asia? Latin America?

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    There's been a labor shift, though. CEOs brag about saving $30,000 by firing one secretary and using a smartphone or Blackberry instead. They can use robotics or outsource cheap labor to China or India, paring down the work force to its smallest size. That raises "productivity" but leaves gaping holes in our society with high unemployment. Then the CEO lives in a gated community, flies in private corporate jets, buys second homes in other countries, hides money in off-shore accounts.

    Then wonders why the nation is stumbling.
    This is how the world has always worked. You really need to stop pretending that the world now is somehow any worse than it was before.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Riiiiiiiiight. Remind me how labor-rich areas do? Africa? Asia? Latin America?
    I'm considering labor to include anyone selling thier time for money. You are in fact a laborer.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I'm considering labor to include anyone selling thier time for money. You are in fact a laborer.
    What's your point? Only the most mobile labor is worth much without domestic capital. Sorry, but neither this nor any other country was made on the back of labor. Every country has labor. Most don't have a GDP per capita of $40k.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    This is how the world has always worked. You really need to stop pretending that the world now is somehow any worse than it was before.
    There's something new and different now, Loki. It's called the internet. During previous shifts from agriculture to manufacturing, manufacturing to services, services to technology .... we didn't have the 24/7 cable news or www news cycle available to so many millions of people. Or the opportunity for practically anyone to join forums or social networks and write our opinions.

    You'll just have to cope with more and more lay people and non-academics being arm chair analysts and opinionators on economics, politics, business ethics, social studies, medicine, education. You name it, and more people consume news from so many links, so many topics, even journalism outside the US that the everyday person didn't used to be able to access. At the touch of a button.

    So you really need to stop pretending that only you (or your university colleagues) know how the world has always worked, or what it looks like now.

  28. #28
    Everyone always likes to pretend that what is happening during their lifetime is qualitatively different than what happened before. Nearly always, they're wrong.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What's your point? Only the most mobile labor is worth much without domestic capital. Sorry, but neither this nor any other country was made on the back of labor. Every country has labor. Most don't have a GDP per capita of $40k.
    Quoted for posterity.

    My point is that Investment does not sustain this society, labor does. No jobs, no society. Not enough jobs, degradation of society. I happily pay taxes so that I can live in the society I was born in. Reagan told rich people that poor people can pay for their own society. Reagan was wrong.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    What's your point? Only the most mobile labor is worth much without domestic capital. Sorry, but neither this nor any other country was made on the back of labor. Every country has labor. Most don't have a GDP per capita of $40k.
    None of the radical innovations from previous centuries could have been put into production without human labor. Trains and railroads, boats and shipping ports, hospitals and surgeries, planes and airports, cars and roadways, combines and megafarms. What's your point?

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