Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 33

Thread: Limits and Constraints of "Small Government"

  1. #1

    Default Limits and Constraints of "Small Government"

    Consumption Safety: human foodstuffs, animal feed, toys, paints, drywall, medicines, biotech devices, cell phones, household appliances, automobiles. Just to name a few.

    How is our everyday world supposed to work with "small government", when so much is based on large businesses, interstate transfers, and globally imported/exported products?

    I really don't want to buy/use/consume things with hidden toxins or dangers, whether it's from my state, across national borders, or from across the globe. I really don't want to be among the unfortunate injured people, trying to get in on a class-action suit after harm has been done.

    How do "Small Government" advocates explain and solve this?

  2. #2
    The usual lolbertarian line is that people can a) research every product and involved production cycle themselves, clearly impossible for anyone not doing it for a living 2) pay some private agency to do what the current gubment agencies do, only better, more efficiently and without STEALING THE SWEAT OFF OUR BROW rar rar.

    This sounds slightly less retarded when considering the cluster-fucks that are US regulatory agencies and how well US authorities enforce the various recommendations these agencies make, but that's less of an argument against gummit agencies than it is for the US being profoundly fucked up culturally.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    Yeah, but you're not a Small Government advocate, are you Nessie?

    I'd like to reduce our bloated bureaucratic agencies, and make them more efficient. The main stream way of saying that comes out as "Reduce the Size of Government". But at some point, size seems less the problem than scope, or ability, or principle.

  4. #4
    Example: the 50 United States are not united on this. Some states have stricter guidelines than our federal government (FDA, CDC) and some are looser. If I want an herbal remedy for migraines or insomnia, it might depend on what state I live in as to what product I can buy. As a general rule, FDA can decide not to study or endorse the safety of something, but that won't necessarily keep it off consumer shelves. That's often left to states laws. Whether it's an herb or a dozen eggs.


  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Consumption Safety: human foodstuffs, animal feed, toys, paints, drywall, medicines, biotech devices, cell phones, household appliances, automobiles. Just to name a few.

    How is our everyday world supposed to work with "small government", when so much is based on large businesses, interstate transfers, and globally imported/exported products?

    I really don't want to buy/use/consume things with hidden toxins or dangers, whether it's from my state, across national borders, or from across the globe. I really don't want to be among the unfortunate injured people, trying to get in on a class-action suit after harm has been done.

    How do "Small Government" advocates explain and solve this?
    DUH. Corporations will just regulate themselves, silly. And those that don't will be punished by the Market. In the end, its the consumers that will win with all the lower prices and innovation. Don't you get it???
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    But at some point, size seems less the problem than scope, or ability, or principle.
    Size only matters to:

    A. People and companies that pay a lot of money in taxes that go to stuff they don't and won't need, like Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.

    B. Corporations that recognize functional regulatory agencies are going to result in more operating expense.

    For the rest of us, size should be secondary to effectiveness. The real question ought to be "Is our government doing what we want/need it to do at a price we are willing to pay?"
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  7. #7
    No reply from the Small Government folks?

    It's easy to say, "Cut government spending!" without offering specifics. Who really wants to get rid of the CDC, FDA, CPSC, EPA, FAA or other regulatory agencies. Would cutting them to the bone make them better, or put us at more risk?

    For the rest of us, size should be secondary to effectiveness. The real question ought to be "Is our government doing what we want/need it to do at a price we are willing to pay?"
    True choobie, but there's a distinct group whose opinion is that when big failures are front and center (oil drilling, financial crisis, levees breaking, food and drug recalls....) it's because gummint was Too Big to be effective. Well, if that's true, then what specifically would they cut or reduce?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    True choobie, but there's a distinct group whose opinion is that when big failures are front and center (oil drilling, financial crisis, levees breaking, food and drug recalls....) it's because gummint was Too Big to be effective.
    And that is such a simple minded, manipulative, bullshit, lie. Government agencies only get noticed when they fail, and they fail for all kinds of reasons, some being they don't have the required resources to do their job, some being whatever administration's in power is actively preventing them from doing their job and others having to do with revolving staffing doors with the industries they're regulating leading to corruption and apathy. There's all kinds of ways things go wrong in giant bureaucracies, and to wipe away all the detail, all the thinking, and declare "goverment's too big, that's why" then cut funding is a formula to guarantee failure. (and justify outsourcing more key government functions ---- win/win for conservatives... )
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  9. #9
    Still waiting for those folks to reply. That is, if they've thought it through and have some specifics. Might be a long wait?

  10. #10
    Wouldnt their answer simply be that you already pay for a group of people to tell you whats safe?

    What difference between a government branch doing it and a private company doing it, aside from that the private company (preferably companies) will do it better and cheaper, and better yet, you get to choose whether you want to pay them or take the risk, as opposed to having the money taken right out of your hand without your explicit consent?

    Presumably anyway.

    Also, do you not think youre being a bit self-congratulatory for someone who hasnt even had anyone reply to her yet? As if all those thousands (millions?) of libertarians and small-government conservatives just havent come across the problem of safety regulation before...
    "Son," he said without preamble, "never trust a man who doesn't drink, because he's probably a self-righteous sort, a man who thinks he knows right from wrong all the time. Some of them are good men, but in the name of goodness, they cause most of the suffering in the world. They're the judges, the meddlers. And, son, never trust a man who drinks but refuses to get drunk. They're usually afraid of something deep down inside, either that they're a coward or a fool or mean and violent. You can't trust a man who's afraid of himself. But sometimes, son, you can trust a man who occasionally kneels before a toilet. The chances are that he is learning something about humility and his natural human foolishness, about how to survive himself. It's damned hard for a man to take himself too seriously when he's heaving his guts into a dirty toilet bowl.

  11. #11
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam/Istanbul
    Posts
    12,462
    Well, I just found out that politicians once more are talking about dissolving the organisation where I work. Supposedly because we're too big, too inefficient and too expensive. That would mean the work we do gets split up between municipalities (lovely how politicians forgot they didn't want that when they thought up 'us', because it made unemployment something that would differ with the place you lived at) and some smaller units. So that takes us roughly back to a system that didn't work but if that's what they want they pay, so they get to tell how the money is spent. What's funnier though is that this is supposed to save money too. But over the last 8 years our workforce has been reduced by a good 30% and we were facing a lot more cuts there. Now they want to charge civil servants with the same job. Never mind that the civil service has managed to reduce its numbers by a whopping 2% over the same time '

    Just in case you wonder; I'm not really worried. I am utterly used to not having job security. Also chances are that my job would wind up in one of those specialist units that's going to survive decentralisations. And if I really lose my job I'm going to retire for good in Istanbul and live of the rent I get from my home in Amsterdam.
    Congratulations America

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Spawnie View Post
    Wouldnt their answer simply be that you already pay for a group of people to tell you whats safe?

    What difference between a government branch doing it and a private company doing it, aside from that the private company (preferably companies) will do it better and cheaper, and better yet, you get to choose whether you want to pay them or take the risk, as opposed to having the money taken right out of your hand without your explicit consent?

    Presumably anyway.
    For the things I meant---our oil drilling debacle, the financial melt down, New Orleans flooding, 500 million eggs recalled, Tylenol and Toyota hazards---what "private company" would/could have been in charge of those things, making them better and cheaper?

    Also, do you not think youre being a bit self-congratulatory for someone who hasnt even had anyone reply to her yet? As if all those thousands (millions?) of libertarians and small-government conservatives just havent come across the problem of safety regulation before...
    For the forum members here, who often talk about Smaller Government is Better (simply because it's smaller?)!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    For the forum members here, who often talk about Smaller Government is Better (simply because it's smaller?)!
    So, none of the Small-Is-Better-Because-It-Costs-Less-And-No-Other-Analysis-Needed crowd ever gave you a reach around on this one? Huh.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  14. #14
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Choobs gave a great reason why you should want small government in the If I was President thread.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    Choobs gave a great reason why you should want small government in the If I was President thread.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  16. #16
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    yerself.

    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  17. #17
    Chacha, like the republicans, just wants to make sure his government can fit inside the bedroom.

    I wish his posts there were a joke, but based on his personality he probably does believe he is fit to determine who may and who may not procreate. Forced sterilizations for the unacceptable, maybe?
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Chacha, like the republicans, just wants to make sure his government can fit inside the bedroom.

    I wish his posts there were a joke, but based on his personality he probably does believe he is fit to determine who may and who may not procreate. Forced sterilizations for the unacceptable, maybe?
    Why is this here and not in the thread with the actual post
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    That's the problem with those who think they have moral or intellectual certitude coupled with the need to tell other people how to live...and they are on both sides of the aisle Lolli.

    Which is an argument for small government. Choobs would hate it if My Guy/Gal was in charge of the government cause of the power he/she would have due to the size and scope of the government.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Why is this here and not in the thread with the actual post
    Because it was brought up here...
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  21. #21
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    @ Ness

    They were asking about 'why small government?'. I posted a somewhat har har post and Lolli chimed in. They are somewhat linked.
    Last edited by Veldan Rath; 09-01-2010 at 02:41 PM. Reason: OR...just what Lolli said.
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Because it was brought up here...
    But if you want to critique Chaloobi's insanity, it'd be cleaner if it was done in the thread discussing it, rather than as a response to Veldan's straw man in the serious forum.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    That's the problem with those who think they have moral or intellectual certitude coupled with the need to tell other people how to live...and they are on both sides of the aisle Lolli.

    Which is an argument for small government. Choobs would hate it if My Guy/Gal was in charge of the government cause of the power he/she would have due to the size and scope of the government.
    Depends on how you look at it. I like knowing an airplane engine isn't duct taped together, my car's gas tank isn't going to explode in a fender-bender, food doesn't have melamine in it, or the Advil I swallow isn't coated in e-coli.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    But if you want to critique Chaloobi's insanity, it'd be cleaner if it was done in the thread discussing it, rather than as a response to Veldan's straw man in the serious forum.
    I didn't consider Veldan's post a strawman. I don't agree with him about a small government necessarily being better, but it was a response to the serious forum thread it was in.

    Your eye-rolling response to it was not, however.
    We're stuck in a bloody snowglobe.

  25. #25
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Depends on how you look at it. I like knowing an airplane engine isn't duct taped together, my car's gas tank isn't going to explode in a fender-bender, food doesn't have melamine in it, or the Advil I swallow isn't coated in e-coli.
    This is why I really didn't want to post in this thread. Very few would argue with some of the 'Big' stuff that oversight from the government can provide.

    It's the stuff that the idiots in power do to get involved with the day to day life.


    @ Ness...A strawman?

    No, not really. The current power of the US Fed would scare the shit out of me if the Religious Right took over (again).
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Veldan Rath View Post
    This is why I really didn't want to post in this thread. Very few would argue with some of the 'Big' stuff that oversight from the government can provide.

    It's the stuff that the idiots in power do to get involved with the day to day life.
    Then list things you'd "cut". Funny thing about the supposedly fiscal conservatives (in politics)....they're the ones who want to be involved in marriage, birth control, stem cell research, mosque building and the like.

  27. #27
    Stingy DM Veldan Rath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Maine! And yes, we have plumbing!
    Posts
    3,064
    No, FISCAL Conservatives are not.

    SOCIAL Conservative do.

    Jebus.

    (Note: the 2 are not mutually exclusive of course but can be exclusive, I'm a Fiscal C, and a Social L.)
    Brevior saltare cum deformibus viris est vita

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    Chacha, like the republicans, just wants to make sure his government can fit inside the bedroom.


    I wish his posts there were a joke, but based on his personality he probably does believe he is fit to determine who may and who may not procreate. Forced sterilizations for the unacceptable, maybe?
    Sex is fine and should be encouraged. Breeding? That's another story. All children are the responsibility and the resources of the state. The state should therefore have a say in all breeding. Forced sterilization (and mandatory genetic engineering when the technology has ripened), while its tempting, I recognize the importance of genetic diversity. It isn't clear that even people with obviously bad genes shouldn't be breeding. Soon, though. Soon we may know.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by littlelolligagged View Post
    I didn't consider Veldan's post a strawman. [...]

    Your eye-rolling response to it was not, however.
    Welp
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  30. #30
    Late at night, watching some cable news show with a conservative radio host saying we should reduce federal government, beginning by dismantling SS, Medicare and Medicaid. They're not constitutionally sound programs, should never have been started, aren't in line with capitalism and it's SSSocialism. So she says.

    Then she goes on to say "I don't want to see old ladies living in trailers eating catfood, and I also want the money back I've paid into SS for 25 years", but she doesn't say what the alternative is AFTER she dismantles SS, Medicare and Medicaid, and gets her money back. Unless it's seeing old ladies living in trailers eating catfood.


Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •