So, how's that separation of church and state coming along in the US?

[wiggin]

Ditto, but I couldn't probalby help to be annoyed a bit all the same that some US judge deems my country a place where people are prosecuted for their believes.

Oh come on, every country does something like this. Some AWOL US soldiers tried to get asylum in Canada and I believe some European countries so they wouldn't have to fight in Iraq, and it was seriously considered (I think some were granted asylum, others weren't?). It's not offensive, it's just that different countries have slightly different rules and value systems when it comes to granting political asylum. The total number of refugees the US takes in every year is huge, and only a tiny fraction of those come from places that aren't shitholes.

The original international guidelines are hardly clear; there's a lot of interpretation involved. *shrugs* Mountain out a molehill.

[Hazir]

Oh come on, every country does something like this. Some AWOL US soldiers tried to get asylum in Canada and I believe some European countries so they wouldn't have to fight in Iraq, and it was seriously considered (I think some were granted asylum, others weren't?). It's not offensive, it's just that different countries have slightly different rules and value systems when it comes to granting political asylum. The total number of refugees the US takes in every year is huge, and only a tiny fraction of those come from places that aren't shitholes.

The original international guidelines are hardly clear; there's a lot of interpretation involved. *shrugs* Mountain out a molehill.

Do you differentiate *much* between the branches of government in another country that may say something negative about your country?

Of course when it's your judges, administration etc doing the 'nasty' it's easier to apply proper relativism and simply say something like 'oh well, judges, what else do you expect of them' and laugh it away.

But Ken is a German, and he doesn't think too much of the US anyway *methinks*.

From a professional point of view I think that the average case-judge barely is up to his/her task. Anywhere. I'm happy we've got triple chambers deciding the more important cases. Would be happier still with juries, but the vast majority of Dutch people think that juries are an invention of Satan or worse.

[wiggin]

Do you differentiate *much* between the branches of government in another country that may say something negative about your country?

Of course when it's your judges, administration etc doing the 'nasty' it's easier to apply proper relativism and simply say something like 'oh well, judges, what else do you expect of them' and laugh it away.

But Ken is a German, and he doesn't think too much of the US anyway *methinks*.

Uhm, I'm not sure what you mean. I didn't care too much about the case of the US soldiers - Andre Shepard applied for asylum in Germany in late 2008 on the grounds of not wanting to fight in Iraq, and I couldn't care less. Canada looks like it's giving asylum to a lesbian soldier who left because of persecution. *shrugs* So what? I would agree that the military probably mistreats homosexuals and may constitute grounds for a persecution claim. I don't agree with Shepard's arguments about Iraq, but he's free to give it a shot, and Germany is welcome him if they want him - we certainly don't.

I guess I just don't see it as Germany trying to meedle in US policy or make some statement about Iraq - it's just a judge somewhere who thinks that the individual case has some merit.

[ImAnOgre]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

[Supermarioman]

I still really don't see why this is a issue.
Family presents logical case for asylum, they get into the U.S. Is this really a big deal?

[Being]

I still really don't see why this is a issue.
Family presents logical case for asylum, they get into the U.S. Is this really a big deal?

They weren't being persecuted.

[Supermarioman]

They weren't being persecuted.

They wanted to Home-school their kids. Germany doesn't allow that. So they go to the U.S where they can.

Seems like a sound case for asylum to me.:/

[Being]

They wanted to Home-school their kids. Germany doesn't allow that. So they go to the U.S where they can.

Seems like a sound case for asylum to me.:/

They weren't being persecuted. Jews in France aren't allowed to wear those funny little hats at public schools, does that mean they should be allowed asylum in the U.S. ?

[Supermarioman]

They weren't being persecuted. Jews in France aren't allowed to wear those funny little hats at public schools, does that mean they should be allowed asylum in the U.S. ?

If the judge approves them, sure, whatever.

[wiggin]

They weren't being persecuted. Jews in France aren't allowed to wear those funny little hats at public schools, does that mean they should be allowed asylum in the U.S. ?

I think a case could be made for it (or the headscarf issue, cross, whatever) if they could make a good argument that it was necessary for their religious belief (incidentally they can't, but let's say they could), and that the police were harassing them if they tried to wear it. Of course, if the rule isn't applied in private schools or home schooling (and not on the streets either) I doubt they'd be able to make a good case. But in principle, I think it could be grounds for asylum, yes.

[Being]

I think a case could be made for it (or the headscarf issue, cross, whatever) if they could make a good argument that it was necessary for their religious belief (incidentally they can't, but let's say they could), and that the police were harassing them if they tried to wear it. Of course, if the rule isn't applied in private schools or home schooling (and not on the streets either) I doubt they'd be able to make a good case. But in principle, I think it could be grounds for asylum, yes.

Would you feel the same if they had converted from one religion to another? And do all religious traditions fit the bill as long as they are illegal in the country the applicant resides but are not illegal in the U.S. ?

[littlelolligagged]

Imagine I'm a nun.

Am I allowed to walk around in France wearing my habit or not?

[GGT]

I think, if I understand the real problem correctly, they want to force the German state to allow home schooling. Which, by the way is illegal in The Netherlands as well. But then again, we have such a wide variety of denominational schools that you have to be a raving lunatic not to find some obscure group tending to your needs.

So my question is....why is home schooling illegal over there? They could just as easily set up certain minimum requirements, to accommodate those who want to home school, like we do in the states.

Some of us don't think it's the best way to get a well-rounded education, but it's probably no worse (and often better) than what some of our public schools offer. Germany got a pretty bad report card for its 8th grade students, last I heard.

[Being]

Imagine I'm a nun.

Am I allowed to walk around in France wearing my habit or not?

I'm almost afraid to ask but what's a not?

[littlelolligagged]

So my question is....why is home schooling illegal over there? They could just as easily set up certain minimum requirements, to accommodate those who want to home school, like we do in the states.

Some of us don't think it's the best way to get a well-rounded education, but it's probably no worse (and often better) than what some of our public schools offer. Germany got a pretty bad report card for its 8th grade students, last I heard.

Minimum requirements? You mean like in Georgia, where a high school diploma (or GED) is considered sufficient to educate your child?

[wiggin]

Would you feel the same if they had converted from one religion to another? And do all religious traditions fit the bill as long as they are illegal in the country the applicant resides but are not illegal in the U.S. ?

Who cares if they converted one way or another? Their relatively harmless religious belief has become a cause of persecution; it was determined for that specific circumstance by an immigration judge to fit the criteria for asylum. *shrugs*

Look, there are plenty of provisos in US asylum laws that allow them to deny people access for any number of reasons, even if they have a legitimate claim to persecution. I'm not going to make some blanket statement since every case is decided individually. But assuming they're not really doing anything wrong, and a government is harassing them as a result of their religion/race/ethnicity/sexual orientation/whatever, why not allow them to come to the US?

[Loki]

Because it implies Germany isn't perfect.

[GGT]

Minimum requirements? You mean like in Georgia, where a high school diploma (or GED) is considered sufficient to educate your child?

Don't all of our states have GED equivalents? I also thought our states have certain rubrics or guidelines and testing for homeschoolers, but it probably varies by state.

Seems to me if Germany has a law against home schooling, even if it's not for religious reasons, that's why the family applied for asylum. So why is it illegal?

[Loki]

The Germans are afraid of extremism, and therefore want the state to tightly control any arena where extremism might manifest itself. Ironic, I know.

[Being]

Who cares if they converted one way or another? Their relatively harmless religious belief has become a cause of persecution; it was determined for that specific circumstance by an immigration judge to fit the criteria for asylum. *shrugs*

Look, there are plenty of provisos in US asylum laws that allow them to deny people access for any number of reasons, even if they have a legitimate claim to persecution. I'm not going to make some blanket statement since every case is decided individually. But assuming they're not really doing anything wrong, and a government is harassing them as a result of their religion/race/ethnicity/sexual orientation/whatever, why not allow them to come to the US?

Is converting in order to seek asylum acceptable?
Is enforcement of a secular law harassment?

[littlelolligagged]

Don't all of our states have GED equivalents? I also thought our states have certain rubrics or guidelines and testing for homeschoolers, but it probably varies by state.

Seems to me if Germany has a law against home schooling, even if it's not for religious reasons, that's why the family applied for asylum. So why is it illegal?

Well we've already seen proof that the education system in Georgia is royally fucked up, but the requirements for homeschooling are quite lax here. There are also some really good homeschooling resources available, but the programs for those tend to fill up really fast, because they are statewide and most counties in Georgia are actually much worse than mine. I mean, I'm against homeschooling in general and I don't blame Marioboy's parents for choosing to do it. I've even considered it for my son, but I actually think the services available to him at school are more valuable than a curriculum that might actually challenge him.

[GGT]

We could spend days and weeks criticizing the US public educational system, but I'm wondering right now about Germany's. I suppose they don't have many Amish over there, since they stop school after 8th grade or so, and are exempt from many DoE standards. Graven images and all that.

[littlelolligagged]

We could spend days and weeks criticizing the US public educational system, but I'm wondering right now about Germany's. I suppose they don't have many Amish over there, since they stop school after 8th grade or so, and are exempt from many DoE standards. Graven images and all that.

Well since most European educational systems are world's better than ours, somehow I seriously doubt there is any comparison at all.

[GGT]

Lolli, you're talking about quality of education, I want to know about the legalities.

[Supermarioman]

Well since most European educational systems are world's better than ours, somehow I seriously doubt there is any comparison at all.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Program...ssment#Results

The U.S placed higher on literacy tests.
Math and Science, not so much, but Germany isn't worlds ahead of the U.S like Japan is.

[GGT]

Finland! Nessie!

Yes, it was in reading and literacy that Germany didn't do very well, wish I could remember the article I read....

edit: Eureka!

In late 2001, an O.E.C.D. study of literacy skills of 15-year-olds stunned Germany by ranking it 21st out of 27 and among the last in terms of social mobility, even though it has Europe’s largest economy. Two years later, the government, Social Democratic at the time, made available €4 billion, or $5.7 billion, to introduce all-day programs at 10,000 schools by 2009. In the end, some 7,200 schools took part, joining a small existing stock.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/18/wo...l?pagewanted=1

[Being]

Wtf happened to asylum?

[littlelolligagged]

Lolli, you're talking about quality of education, I want to know about the legalities.

Isn't quality of education more important?

[GGT]

Isn't quality of education more important?

Wtf happened to asylum?

uhm.....

[wiggin]

Is converting in order to seek asylum acceptable?
Is enforcement of a secular law harassment?

On the first, I would in principle argue that it is not acceptable, but it's awfully hard to prove. Immigration fraud is very common (although it's normally easier and less dangerous just to marry someone, rather than try to get persecuted in your home country), and they try to weed it out. But at the end of the day, if the individual case looks legit, I don't think it matters if they converted or not.

As for definitions of harassment/persecution - it all comes down to the specifics. I think the state forcibly requiring people to do something that is against their religious beliefs is harassment, yes. But then - what about if the state just fined the parents, rather than having police take their kids to school? I'm not so sure - I'm not an expert on the definitions either in the international protocols or in US immigration law. Obviously, there has to be some line the state crosses. I'm not sure exactly where it is.