Michiganders screwed

[EyeKhan]

A report came out yesterday stating that the median income in Michigan has dropped by an average of $12k since 2000. Current real unemployment is estimated at 24-25%. 1/4 Children live in families with incomes below the poverty line, a line which is set well below what is real poverty around here. Kids are routinely growing up with no way to earn the same income their parents did, short of leaving the state. Detroit City has less than 1/2 the population it had 50 years ago - it has the lowest population density of any city in America. The current mayor is moving forward on a plan to move people out of blighted, burned out neighborhoods then fencing the land area off and abandoning it. Or turning it over to urban farming companies. What the fuck? Its depressing.

Thinking right now this doesn't belong in this forum. Rand/Dread/DW - if you want to move it, go ahead.

[littlelolligagged]

I think you should be called Michiganonians, or maybe Michigonians, instead of Michiganders.

What does fencing people out of the hood do, exactly? Do they think fences will keep people out?

[Nessus]

What happened? Industries killed all production line jobs and mass unemployment followed?

[EyeKhan]

I think you should be called Michiganonians, or maybe Michigonians, instead of Michiganders.

What does fencing people out of the hood do, exactly? Do they think fences will keep people out?

The tax base in Detroit can't support the services. The city is composed of downtown and a bunch of surrounding neighborhoods. Some neighborhoods have only a few occupied houses per block and the city can't afford to provide the various services to these people who are so spread out. So they want to downsize the land area of the city with people living on it, that way you can have less garbage trucks, less snow clearing, less road repair, less police and fire coverage, less infrastructure maintenance of all kinds... etc etc. There's a number of big agr companies looking to buy up the vacant land and start farming it. Its crazy.

What happened? Industries killed all production line jobs and mass unemployment followed?

The auto industry first spread away from Michigan and got very efficient, then downsized significantly as marketshare was won over by foreign companies, then collapsed. And those still in auto factory jobs are hiring in at 30% less pay in the new 2-tier wage contracts. Existing employees may 30/hour and new hires make 20/hr. It used to be if your father worked at an auto plant, they would preferentially hire you to work it. But now you get paid less.

[Loki]

What happened? Industries killed all production line jobs and mass unemployment followed?

Crappy education, strong unions, crappy politicians, horrible voters.

[Lewkowski]

Years of mismanagement by liberals. A cesspool of crime and corruption. That is what happened in Detroit. Yes the auto industry played a major role but other cities have had industries go through changes that have hurt and they didn't end up stinking hell hole like Detroit.

[EyeKhan]

Years of mismanagement by liberals. A cesspool of crime and corruption. That is what happened in Detroit. Yes the auto industry played a major role but other cities have had industries go through changes that have hurt and they didn't end up stinking hell hole like Detroit.

Crappy education, strong unions, crappy politicians, horrible voters.

Thank you for the demonstrations of callous ignorance. Loki, you should feel particularly pleased you managed to outdo Lewk at his own game. Congrats.

[Illusions]

Years of mismanagement by liberals.

I'm uncertain how "liberals" plays a part here as various other states/cities that you would consider to be "managed by liberals" in your rationale are strong economic performers. I'm also fairly certain that if I was to find a red state doing worse than Michigan, or a city doing worse than Detroit, you wouldn't chalk it up to "Years of mismanagement by conservatives"...

[EyeKhan]

Note - Michigan's governor and legislature have been controled by Republicans in the last 20 years as much as by Democrats. That's where the ignorance comes into play.


Governor Party affiliations in MI since 1940s:

Kelly - R-1943-47
Sigler-R-1947-49
Williams-D-49-61
Swanison-D-61-63
Romney-R-63-69
Milliken-R-69-83
Blanchard-D-83-91
Engler-R-91-2003 (term limited out)
Granholm-D-2003-Present (term limited out)

Pretty solid mix....

Right now the Senate is Republican and the House is Democrat. The Senate's been that way for some time but the House fairly recently went Democrat. Before that I don't know and I'm having quite a time finding a resource on the net.

[Lewkowski]

Note - Michigan's governor and legislature have been controled by Republicans in the last 20 years as much as by Democrats. That's where the ignorance comes into play.

Well I was referring to Detroit. You may have noticed I mentioned Detroit by name in my post.

[EyeKhan]

Well I was referring to Detroit. You may have noticed I mentioned Detroit by name in my post.

Oh. Well, you may have noticed the thread itself was about the whole state. I just assumed you were talking about the same.

Detroit itself has fallen pray to a number of problems, the biggest of which is racial discord, IMO. After the '67 riots, the white folks bailed en masse from the city to be followed by a steady exit of businesses. The tax base crumbled while the city government exacerbated the problem with public race-baiting to maintain control and a very antagonistic relationship with the suburban communities. Add to that severe incompetance and corruption and you have a city that couldn't do anything to effectively react to its decline. With the city becoming a less and less pleasant place to live, the withdrawal of decent jobs, the black folks of any financial means began leaving for the suburbs as well, leaving a half empty crumbling wreck behind. There are other factors - detroit has no mass transit to speak of, the entire regional economy has been in continuous decline since the early '80s, its reputation for crime and corruption has been nothing short of awful for decades, etc. While its true that black people tend to vote Democratic, its absurd to point to detroit and say "see, liberals ruined detroit." That's kind of stupid

[Nessus]

Jesus Christ America sucks

[Illusions]

Jesus Christ America sucks

Michigan is a part of the United States, Detroit an even smaller part of it, not the whole of the United States. I'm sure there are parts of Finland that suck too.

[Nessus]

Michigan is a part of the United States, Detroit an even smaller part of it, not the whole of the United States. I'm sure there are parts of Finland that suck too.

Aww. I'm sorry.

And yes, there are parts of Finland that suck.

Parts with immigrants in!

[EyeKhan]

Acutally, Michigan's got a lot of natural beauty - unique in a lot of ways, in fact - and a number of towns with a lot of character. (fuckers ) I'll post some pics later. Maybe. If I have the time. Civ5's been taking up all my home system time.

EDIT: Even Detroit's a pretty amazing place - parts of it look post-apocalyptic. Great place to film a zombie movie, IMO.

[']['ear]

The forces that trashed Detroit are not all that different than those that hit other US cities that relied heavily on certain industries. Just plain old manufacturing economics plus white flight. Weren't there many rust belt cities that hit some seriously hard times when the steel industries left? Detroit was just about 10 years behind that, IIRC. Anyway, those cities are coming back somewhat, though the Great Recession still hit some of them harder than most. Also, I'd argue that Detroit was more of a one-industry town than others in the rust belt, so consequently its fall was harder. If certain people weren't trying to score political points, they wouldn't lie their asses off pitching it as something it isn't.

An irony is the great African-American migration of the earlier part of the 20th century. Fleeing lynchings and institutionalized bigotry, they went to the land of milk and honey, where they were less persecuted and got far better jobs. Now, of course, that has reversed. WIll blacks in Detroit go back to the South?

[Lewkowski]

Detroit itself has fallen pray to a number of problems, the biggest of which is racial discord, IMO. After the '67 riots, the white folks bailed en masse from the city to be followed by a steady exit of businesses.

And gee which party in America is obsessed with identity politics? Oh yeah that would be the liberal one. The Democratic party is the party of racism in America today. Affirmative Action, the vicious assault on black Republicans (in fact I doubt anyone can name a prominent black politician on the national level who has NOT been called an uncle Tom by liberals), the attempts to kill any "color-blind" legislation and then to top it all off they have the gall to claim the other party is racist!

[Nessus]

And gee which party in America is obsessed with identity politics? Oh yeah that would be the liberal one. The Democratic party is the party of racism in America today. Affirmative Action, the vicious assault on black Republicans (in fact I doubt anyone can name a prominent black politician on the national level who has NOT been called an uncle Tom by liberals), the attempts to kill any "color-blind" legislation and then to top it all off they have the gall to claim the other party is racist!

[Illusions]

...then to top it all off they have the gall to claim the other party is racist!

The "conservative" party was the one who possessed members staunchly against the Civil Rights Act and were in favor of continuing segregation, with members, like Strom Thurmond, still serving in government positions up until very recently, in Thurmond's case 2003. I hope even you can understand why people feel that way, considering this fact.

I'd also have to say that the "conservative" party is obsessed with identity politics, otherwise it wouldn't try to use issues that deal with sexual preference, religion, Muslims, being a "Mama Grizzly", or a True Patriot/American, ie. identity politics, as wedge issues.

[Lewkowski]

The "conservative" party was the one who possessed members staunchly against the Civil Rights Act and were in favor of continuing segregation, with members, like Strom Thurmond, still serving in government positions up until very recently, in Thurmond's case 2003. I hope even you can understand why people feel that way, considering this fact.

Compare Strong Thurmond to the Democratic Senator who held a high position in the KKK... you know Robert Byrd? The guy who was in office up until he died earlier this year.

In addition a greater proportion of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act. The Republican party is the party of Lincoln.

But we are talking about the past which really is far from important compared to what is happening NOW. And right now the party that supports racism is the Democratic party.

I'd also have to say that the "conservative" party is obsessed with identity politics, otherwise it wouldn't try to use issues that deal with sexual preference, religion, Muslims, being a "Mama Grizzly", or a True Patriot/American, ie. identity politics, as wedge issues.

Identify politics being the idea that you represent something by being part of a certain group. IE race, gender religion. This is absurd. Regardless of the color of someone's skin or their gender that should not make someone vote or not vote for someone. Voting for Obama to be president because he is black is an example of racism just as voting against Obama based on the color of his skin is racism. It doesn't matter if X percentage of seats in congress are held by whatever race, it matters what they do and what is their character.

Liberals are obsessed with race and racial statistics.

[EyeKhan]

Thanks for ruining my thread with all your psycho conservative rantings, Lewk.

[']['ear]

Wondering why >90% of blacks vote Democrat in every election, not just the ones with a black candidate. Or a majority of Latinos in spite of being natural conservatives (hard-core Catholics, which Latinos overwhelmingly are, vote conservative).

I'd say these minorities disagree with you, Lewk. They see something in the Republican party they don't like, while consistently a majority of whites prefer the Republicans. The Republicans are so overwhelmingly white that when they scan crowds with a camera at conventions, the rare faces with some pigment in them stick out like sore thumbs.

Oh, and you're the one who plays the race card all the time. "That's the past, let's talk about the future, and I'll refer to a politician who's been dead for 145 years."

[Loki]

Thank you for the demonstrations of callous ignorance. Loki, you should feel particularly pleased you managed to outdo Lewk at his own game. Congrats.

Which part of that is untrue?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...ollege-student

[']['ear]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...ollege-student

So much for Lewk's "Michigan is liberal and that is why it is $&#*ed up" trope.

BTW, UM is one of the better public universities in the country. Many of its graduate programs are top-notch. In biomed it is known as being among the top of the public Us.

[EyeKhan]

Which part of that is untrue?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_upshot...ollege-student

Um, are you posting that link as evidence that Michigan's economic problems are caused by:

"Crappy education, strong unions, crappy politicians, horrible voters?"

If so I'm not seeing the connection. And which comes first, the crappy politician or the horrible voter? Can you really call a voter horrible if he's only got crappy politicians to choose among? Do you really want either of your posts to be taken seriously or is this just a joke and/or lazy posting?

[Illusions]

Compare Strong Thurmond to the Democratic Senator who held a high position in the KKK... you know Robert Byrd? The guy who was in office up until he died earlier this year.

I'm unsure how a Democrat holding racist opinions negates the idea that Conservatives have been known to hold racist opinions and attempt to pass or uphold racist laws.

In addition a greater proportion of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act. The Republican party is the party of Lincoln.

You can't interchangeably use Conservative and Republican, or compare the Republican party of today to the Republican party of the past, as they held and do hold separate values. Your attempting to claim Lincoln would be a member of the modern Republican party is equally ridiculous as Lincoln went to war with the Confederacy in order to maintain the United States as a whole, with the Confederacy seperating due to its positions on States' rights over Federal laws, in addition to its positions on slavery. You regularly tout States' rights as a superior method of dealing with things, and are arguing in this very thread that enforced equality is racism. How you can hold these contradictory beliefs, let alone use them as debating points is absurd.

But we are talking about the past which really is far from important compared to what is happening NOW. And right now the party that supports racism is the Democratic party.

I can't tell but does the Republican party still support racial profiling when it comes to matters of security? I'd also say that they've adopted other forms of bigotry, because outright trying to go back on the Civil Rights movement would be political suicide.

Identify politics being the idea that you represent something by being part of a certain group. IE race, gender religion.

You mean like being a "Mama Grizzly", Real American, of the Common Man/Joe the Plumber, believing in God, or being Christian?

This is absurd.

Glad you agree.

Voting for Obama to be president because he is black is an example of racism just as voting against Obama based on the color of his skin is racism.

So essentially the crazy portion of the Tea Party, or at least the ones that get air time?

Liberals are obsessed with race and racial statistics.

You really fail to understand the faults in your own viewpoints don't you?

I think an additional problem might be the clarity of my message, so here's a TL;DR - Your party supports racism too, as do some conservatives, it has also been involved in mismanaging things (a real damn understatement given the current state of the country), and has had corrupt members. Your "Liberal" shit? Get over it...

[Loki]

Um, are you posting that link as evidence that Michigan's economic problems are caused by:

"Crappy education, strong unions, crappy politicians, horrible voters?"

If so I'm not seeing the connection. And which comes first, the crappy politician or the horrible voter? Can you really call a voter horrible if he's only got crappy politicians to choose among? Do you really want either of your posts to be taken seriously or is this just a joke and/or lazy posting?

A) You do have a horrible secondary education system.
B) Your people vote for horrible politicians.
C) Your unions have far too much power, which is at least partially responsible for D.
D) Your politicians are directly responsible for A and C.

[']['ear]

Again, all of these apply to the rust belt during the disappearance of the steel industry. Except for B, which is just a horse shit argument any time, anywhere.

[Loki]

Again, all of these apply to the rust belt during the disappearance of the steel industry. Except for B, which is just a horse shit argument any time, anywhere.

Yes, the only real difference is that the ponzi scheme had to collapse at some point, and now it did.

[']['ear]

Apropos of....? Cryptic never makes a telling point in a debate.