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Thread: SCOTUS, Politics, Speech, and Money

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by EyeKhan View Post
    Employees of corporations have the same right to speech as anyone else. What they should not have is the right to take the resources of that corporation and use them to blare their speech to drown out the speech of most other citizens who don't have access to those resources. And you also make the mistake of conflating the speech of the employee or the stock holder with that of the corporation itself. The people within a corporation are very diverse and have a variety of opinions. That freedom of association is interesting but doesn't apply here - nobody is saying you can't form a corporation, just that you can't use its resources to abuse the political system.
    Employees aren't necessarily stakeholders. But anyways, most of the rest of your argument here is irrelevant - it simply doesn't matter if all the stakeholders agree with everything, as long as they all agree to be associated with the corporation knowing how decisions are made by it. I take issue with your implicit assertion that you're more fit to judge whether stakeholders interests are being served by a corporation than they are.

    (edit: I should define my terms. I'm using stakeholders to roughly mean shareholders (in public companies), owners, or anyone else who has actually bought into the company somehow. More than just being paid by them, for the same reason that the garbage man doesn't count as part of your household.)

    For the public good. If a media outlet reaches millions of people it has a responsiblity not to undermine our system of government. One sided political propaganda does that. If your're advocating policy or candidates, you're making political speech.
    It's just as easily turned against the common good. Doing this is one of the hallmarks of a modern fascist state.

    No, you're enhancing protest. AFAIK its not legitimate protest to silence the opposition. It might be an effective way to win an election, good for one party or one candidate, but its not good for a democratic political process.
    Aren't you trying to silence, or at least quiet down the opposition with this idea?

    No, I'm saying the opposite. Air time has to be granted to the opposition.
    ...equal to the support, is what you've been saying. In the current system the government can't do shit if the opposition wants to start screaming about things, whatever those things are. In your proposal, any side with control could just say "We won't talk, so you don't get to either."

    Minimum time maybe? Then who decides what's worth time, to keep the noise from drowning out the signal? Petitions are way too easy to fill up with however many names you want (see: internet). Money's a good way, since people won't just give that out unless they really do give a shit. But, that's the system you're opposing now, no?

    No, I'm advocating granting all sides equal speech. This is about expanding speech. The recent court ruling will limit speech.
    You're advocating squelching those you don't like and promoting those you do, you're just calling it equal speech. If it were truly equal, the government would just back off as long as nobody's actually silencing anyone else. And no, refusing to help propogate other peoples messages is not silencing them.

  2. #92
    As a stock holder/share owner, if I have to choose between a corporation's profit (for me) or their corporate philosophy, I admit I'll choose my profit margin. This is why I still own stock in companies that don't necessarily share my general personal values.

    As a consumer of certain goods and services (like Google or Walmart or Exxon), I admit I may feel forced to keep using them, even if they plaster every item or web site with adverts saying "Vote for Palin" or something like that, knowing that a small part of my purchase keeps fueling their ability to advertise.

    Only the filthy rich can use their pocketbooks as true social activism. That's part of the problem. First Amendment folks like to make this sound like it's a choice afforded to everyone, but it's really not.

  3. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    As a stock holder/share owner, if I have to choose between a corporation's profit (for me) or their corporate philosophy, I admit I'll choose my profit margin. This is why I still own stock in companies that don't necessarily share my general personal values.

    As a consumer of certain goods and services (like Google or Walmart or Exxon), I admit I may feel forced to keep using them, even if they plaster every item or web site with adverts saying "Vote for Palin" or something like that, knowing that a small part of my purchase keeps fueling their ability to advertise.

    Only the filthy rich can use their pocketbooks as true social activism. That's part of the problem. First Amendment folks like to make this sound like it's a choice afforded to everyone, but it's really not.
    Yes if you are rich you have the ability to purchase more advertisements. So? If your rich you'll also get better health care, a better ride and a larger home.

    Heck under the current financial rules if you are independently wealthy you can finance your own campaigns. Now at least anyone can advertise what they wish (well up to a point, SC still outlaws direct funding or direct cooperation).

  4. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Yes if you are rich you have the ability to purchase more advertisements. So? If your rich you'll also get better health care, a better ride and a larger home.

    Heck under the current financial rules if you are independently wealthy you can finance your own campaigns. Now at least anyone can advertise what they wish (well up to a point, SC still outlaws direct funding or direct cooperation).
    That's corporatism. We already have enough of a circus regarding who runs for offices and how. That's why campaign finance reform came about in the first place.

    I saw Sandra Day O'Connor's interview on CNN. She didn't seem too crazy about the ruling, either. And Alito making faces during the State of the Union address, now that's decorum.

    Maybe you have a point, tho. Seems to be the American Way. Kinda like every stadium/arena named after its corporate sponsor. Our representatives can just wear t-shirts with all their sponsors, like NASCAR or PGA. Maybe Microsoft or Google can fund our next federal building and have their names etched in stone on the edifice. Goldman Sachs Federal Reserve, nice ring.

  5. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Wraith View Post
    (edit: I should define my terms. I'm using stakeholders to roughly mean shareholders (in public companies), owners, or anyone else who has actually bought into the company somehow. More than just being paid by them, for the same reason that the garbage man doesn't count as part of your household.)
    Mutual funds and pension funds don't allow you to pick and choose the corporations you are invested in. Do you have any idea what the ratio is of people who choose a corporation to invest in to people who are passively invested in those same corporations? Corporations don't speak for shareholders.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  6. #96
    Shareholder Proxy votes are usually for boards of directors, and they appoint officers. It can be contentious---anyone remember Ken Lewis? I also recall some power politics with a Ford family member, trying to gain controlling shares to oust leadership, but my memory fails the particulars.

    Anyway, in the spirit of Mutual of Omaha presents Wild Kingdom....it could get really ugly out there in the concrete jungle.

  7. #97
    Maybe you have a point, tho. Seems to be the American Way. Kinda like every stadium/arena named after its corporate sponsor. Our representatives can just wear t-shirts with all their sponsors, like NASCAR or PGA.
    Sure if they don't want to be elected.

    I hate to break it to you but money doesn't decide all elections. Being an incumbent for example is important. General mood of the electorate, your policies, what gaffes you've committed recently and what kind of GOTV team you have.

    What the ruling does is firmly uphold the 1st amendment. The most important speech to protect is the unpopular and offensive speech.

  8. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Sure if they don't want to be elected.

    I hate to break it to you but money doesn't decide all elections. Being an incumbent for example is important. General mood of the electorate, your policies, what gaffes you've committed recently and what kind of GOTV team you have.

    What the ruling does is firmly uphold the 1st amendment. The most important speech to protect is the unpopular and offensive speech.
    What about hate speech? Let's say some big corporation with heavy fundamental views against gays and lesbians, wants to run ads for their candidate, where they go on a holy roller coaster bashing gays and lesbians? On prime time tv?

  9. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What about hate speech? Let's say some big corporation with heavy fundamental views against gays and lesbians, wants to run ads for their candidate, where they go on a holy roller coaster bashing gays and lesbians? On prime time tv?
    Haha, watch the Superbowl next week, they're going to air an anti-abortion commercial.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  10. #100
    Who is They? And that's some spendy air time there.....

  11. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Who is They? And that's some spendy air time there.....
    Super Bowl Anti-Abortion Commercial
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  12. #102
    Heh, this is not your father's Oldsmobile. I don't watch the super bowl, anyway. But they used to be known for their ads. Now the networks are just desperate I guess.

    Can't wait for the Olympics!

  13. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Heh, this is not your father's Oldsmobile. I don't watch the super bowl, anyway. But they used to be known for their ads. Now the networks are just desperate I guess.

    Can't wait for the Olympics!
    Yeah, it's going to be pretty funny watching winter olympics with now snow.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  14. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    What about hate speech? Let's say some big corporation with heavy fundamental views against gays and lesbians, wants to run ads for their candidate, where they go on a holy roller coaster bashing gays and lesbians? On prime time tv?
    So? What about a TV show that routinely bashes religion? (South Park?) What about one bashing politicians (Daily Show?) What about one that bashes (Insert sub group here). Hate speech is nonsense. As long as they are not actually threatening something then go right ahead.

  15. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    So? What about a TV show that routinely bashes religion? (South Park?) What about one bashing politicians (Daily Show?) What about one that bashes (Insert sub group here). Hate speech is nonsense. As long as they are not actually threatening something then go right ahead.
    You're comparing comedy shows and cartoons, in certain time slots on certain channels, with political adverts that are aired all over hundreds of cable channels 24/7, and the radio?

    Someone has to practically be a hermit not to see how pervasive and influential advertising is in this day and age, or how politically sensitive things can be. Talk about things going viral.

    ESPN firing the man who made blog comments about Haiti....

    CBS deciding to air a controversial "advocacy" ad during super bowl....

    It's going to be a propaganda circus when a network can't refuse a "political" ad, groups jockeying for competing spots for their candidate, and the deepest pockets having the loudest voice.

  16. #106
    *OF COURSE THE NETWORK CAN REFUSE A POLITICAL AD* The 1st amendment only protects you from the governments ability to deprive you of the right of speech. You have no right to come on someone else's property and speak unless that person is OK with it.

    In no way is this ruling saying networks have to run political advertisement. It merely states the government has no right to stop this kind of speech.

  17. #107
    What Is the First Amendment For?

    By STANLEY FISH


    Citizens United v. Federal Election commission — the recent case in which the Supreme Court invalidated a statute prohibiting corporations and unions from using general treasury funds either to support or defeat a candidate in the 30 days before an election, and overruled an earlier decision relied on by the minority — has now been commented on by almost everyone, including the president of the United States in his state of the union address.

    I would like to step back from the debate about whether the decision enhances our First Amendment freedoms or hands the country over to big-money interests, and read it instead as the latest installment in an ongoing conflict between two ways of thinking about the First Amendment and its purposes.

    We can approach the conflict by noting a semantic difference between the majority and concurring opinions on the one hand and the dissenting opinion — a 90-page outpouring of passion and anger by Justice Stevens — on the other. The word most important to Justice Kennedy’s argument (he writes for the majority) is “chill,” while the word most important to Stevens’s argument is “corrupt.”

    Kennedy, along with Justices Roberts, Alito, Thomas and Scalia (the usual suspects), is worried that the restrictions on campaign expenditures imposed by the statute he strikes down will “chill” speech, that is, prevent some of it from entering the marketplace of ideas that must, he believes, be open to all voices if the First Amendment’s stricture against the abridging of speech is to be honored. (“[A] statute which chills speech can and must be invalidated.”) Stevens is worried — no, he is certain — that the form of speech Kennedy celebrates will corrupt the free flow of information so crucial to the health of a democratic society. “[T]he distinctive potential of corporations to corrupt the electoral process [has] long been recognized.”

    When Stevens writes “has long been recognized,” he is invoking the force of history and asking us to take note of the reasons why many past court decisions (including one written by then-Chief Justice Rehnquist) have acknowledged the dangers posed by corporations, dangers that provoked this declaration by Theodore Roosevelt in 1905: “All contributions by corporations to any political committee or for any political purpose should be forbidden by law.”

    Behind such strong statements is a twin fear: (1) the fear that big money will not only talk (the metaphor that converts campaign expenditures into speech and therefore into a matter that merits First Amendment scrutiny), but will buy votes and influence, and (2) the fear that corporations and unions, with their huge treasuries, will crowd out smaller voices by purchasing all the air time and print space. The majority, Stevens admits, does “acknowledge the validity of the interest in preventing corruption,” but, he complains, it is not an interest it is interested in, for “it effectively discounts the value of that interest to zero.”

    That’s not quite right. Kennedy and the others in the majority make the proper noises about corruption; they just don’t think that it is likely to occur and they spend much time explaining why corporations are citizens like anyone else (a proposition Stevens ridicules) and why, for various economic and public-relation reasons, they pose no threat to the integrity of the electoral process.

    But even if they thought otherwise, even if they were persuaded by the dire predictions Stevens and those he cites make, they would come down where they do; not because they welcome corruption or have no interest in forestalling it, or discount the value of being concerned with it, but because they find another interest of more value, indeed of surpassing value. That is the value of being faithful to what they take to be the categorical imperative of the First Amendment, which, with respect to political speech, forbids the suppression of voices, especially voices “the Government deems to be suspect” (Kennedy); for if this voice now, why not other voices later?

    Even if there were substance to the charge of “undue influence” exercised by those with deep pockets, it would still be outweighed, says Kennedy, citing an earlier case, “by the loss for democratic process resulting from the restrictions upon free and full discussion.” The question of where that discussion might take the country is of less interest than the overriding interest in assuring that it is full and free, that is, open to all and with no exclusions based on a calculation of either the motives or the likely actions of individual or corporate speakers. In this area, the majority insists, the state cannot act paternally. Voters are adults who must be “free to obtain information from diverse sources”; they are not to be schooled by a government that would protect them from sources it distrusts.

    Notice how general Kennedy’s rhetoric has become. The specificity of Stevens’s concerns, rooted in the historical record and in the psychology and sociology of political actors, disappears in the overarching umbrella category of “information.” The syllogism is straightforward. Freedom of information is what the First Amendment protects; corporation and unions are sources of information; therefore their contributions — now imagined as wholly verbal not monetary; the conversion is complete — must be protected, come what may.

    That, Kennedy is saying, is the Court’s job, to allow the process to go forward unimpeded. It is not the Court’s job to fiddle with the process in an effort to make it fairer or more representative, a point Chief Justice Roberts makes in his concurring opinion when he cites approvingly the Court’s “repudiation,” in Buckley v. Valeo (1976), “of any government interest in ‘equalizing the relative ability of individuals and groups to influence the outcomes of elections.’” Equality may be a good thing; it might be nice if no one had a disproportionate share of influence; but it’s not our job to engineer it. Let the market sort it out.

    The majority’s reasoning reaches back to a famous pronouncement by Oliver Wendell Holmes, who acknowledges in Gitlow v. New York (1925) that there are forms of discourse, which, if permitted to flourish, might very well bring disastrous results. Nevertheless, he says, “If in the long run the beliefs expressed . . . are destined to be accepted by the dominant forces of the community, the only meaning of free speech is that they should be given their chance and have their way.”

    Holmes’s fatalism — let everyone speak and if the consequences are bad, so be it — stands in contrast to the epistemological optimism of Justice Brandeis who believes that if the marketplace is allowed to be completely open bad speech will be exposed and supplanted by good speech (a reverse Gresham’s law): “The remedy to be supplied is more speech, not enforced silence” (Whitney v. California, 1927). Both justices reject state manipulation of the speech market , one because he is willing to take what comes — it is Holmes who said that if his fellow countrymen wanted to go to hell in a hand-basket, it was his job to help them — the other because he believes that what will come if speech is unfettered will be good.

    The justices in the Citizens United majority are more in the Brandeis camp. They believe that free trade in ideas with as many trading partners as wish to join in will inevitability produce benign results for a democratic society. And since their confidence in these results is a matter of theoretical faith and not of empirical or historical observation — free speech is for them a religion with long-term rewards awaiting us down the road — they feel no obligation to concern themselves with short-term calculations and predictions.

    Stevens also values robust intellectual commerce, but he believes that allowing corporate voices to have their full and unregulated say “can distort the ‘free trade in ideas’ crucial to candidate elections.” In his view free trade doesn’t take care of itself, but must be engineered by the kind of restrictions the majority strikes down. The marketplace of ideas can become congealed and frozen; the free flow can be impeded, and when that happens the only way to preserve free speech values is to curtail or restrict some forms of speech, just as you might remove noxious weeds so that your garden can begin to grow again. Prohibitions on speech, Stevens says, can operate “to facilitate First Amendment values,” and he openly scorns the majority’s insistence that enlightened self-government “can arise only in the absence of regulation.”

    The idea that you may have to regulate speech in order to preserve its First Amendment value is called consequentialism. For a consequentialist like Stevens, freedom of speech is not a stand-alone value to be cherished for its own sake, but a policy that is adhered to because of the benign consequences it is thought to produce, consequences that are catalogued in the usual answers to the question, what is the First Amendment for?

    Answers like the First Amendment facilitates the search for truth, or the First Amendment is essential to the free flow of ideas in a democratic polity, or the First Amendment encourages dissent, or the First Amendment provides the materials necessary for informed choice and individual self-realization. If you think of the First Amendment as a mechanism for achieving goals like these, you have to contemplate the possibility that some forms of speech will be subversive of those goals because, for instance, they impede the search for truth or block the free flow of ideas or crowd out dissent. And if such forms of speech appear along with their attendant dangers, you will be obligated — not in violation of the First Amendment, but in fidelity to it — to move against them, as Stevens advises us to do in his opinion.

    The opposite view of the First Amendment — the view that leads you to be wary of chilling any speech even if it harbors a potential for corruption — is the principled or libertarian or deontological view. Rather than asking what is the First Amendment for and worrying about the negative effects a form of speech may have on the achievement of its goals, the principled view asks what does the First Amendment say and answers, simply, it says no state abridgement of speech. Not no abridgment of speech unless we dislike it or fear it or think of it as having low or no value, but no abridgment of speech, period, especially if the speech in question is implicated in the political process.

    The cleanest formulation of this position I know is given by the distinguished First Amendment scholar William Van Alstyne: “The First Amendment does not link the protection it provides with any particular objective and may, accordingly, be deemed to operate without regard to anyone’s view of how well the speech it protects may or may not serve such an objective.”

    In other words, forget about what speech does or does not do in the world; just take care not to restrict it. This makes things relatively easy. All you have to do is determine that it’s speech and then protect it, as Kennedy does when he observes that “Section 441b’s prohibition on corporate independent expenditures is . . . a ban on speech.” That’s it. Nothing more need be said, although Kennedy says a lot more, largely in order to explain why nothing more need be said and why everything Stevens says — about corruption, distortion, electoral integrity and undue influence — is beside the doctrinal point.

    The majority’s purity of principle is somewhat alloyed when it upholds the disclosure requirements of the statute it is considering on the reasoning that the public has a right to be informed about the identity of those who fund a corporation’s ads and videos. “This transparency enables the electorate to make informed decisions.”

    Justice Thomas disagrees. The interest “in providing voters with additional relevant information” does not, he says, outweigh “’the right to anonymous speech.’” The majority’s claim that disclosure requirements do not prevent anyone from speaking is, Thomas declares, false; those who know that their names will be on a list may refrain from contributing for fear of reprisals and thus be engaged in an act of self-censoring. The effect of disclosure requirements, he admonishes, is “to curtail campaign-related activity and prevent the lawful, peaceful exercise of First Amendment rights.”

    Only Thomas has the courage of the majority’s declared convictions. Often the most principled of the judges (which doesn’t mean that I always like his principles), he is willing to follow a principle all the way, and so he rebukes his colleagues in the majority for preferring the value of more information to the value the First Amendment mandates — absolutely free speech unburdened by any restriction whatsoever including the restriction of having to sign your name. Thomas has caught his fellow conservatives in a consequentialist moment.

    The consequentialist and principled view of the First Amendment are irreconcilable. Their adherents can only talk past one another and become increasingly angered and frustrated by what they hear from the other side. This ongoing soap opera has been the content of First Amendment jurisprudence ever since it emerged full blown in the second decade of the 20th century. Citizens United is a virtual anthology of the limited repertoire of moves the saga affords. You could build an entire course around it. And that is why even though I agree with much of what Stevens says (I’m a consequentialist myself) and dislike the decision as a citizen, as a teacher of First Amendment law I absolutely love it.
    http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com...amendment-for/

  18. #108
    Yeah well thanks to this ruling, lawyers are going to earn lots of money proving that groups either did or did not violate the FIRE in a crowded theater threshold for free speech. We might as well begin redistricting our state borders along corporate lines since the geographic lines have been breeched.

    The thing that upsets me most is that the money used to promote this free "speech" does not come from individuals who are likely to agree with it.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  19. #109
    I thought Mr. Fish wrote a great article, especially about the categories of our opinions on the ruling, and how we arrive at What the Amendment is for...

    Thomas has caught his fellow conservatives in a consequentialist moment.
    Plus this.

  20. #110
    Hey GGT you posted an article I like.

  21. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Hey GGT you posted an article I like.
    But you only agree with half of it.


    I doubt Lewk read the whole thing.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  22. #112
    The consequentialist and principled view of the First Amendment are irreconcilable. Their adherents can only talk past one another and become increasingly angered and frustrated by what they hear from the other side. This ongoing soap opera has been the content of First Amendment jurisprudence ever since it emerged full blown in the second decade of the 20th century.

  23. #113
    I wonder if we'll ever know who is doing the talking?

    The Secret Sponsors
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  24. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I wonder if we'll ever know who is doing the talking?

    The Secret Sponsors
    Now THAT is something legislation can remedy. Ain't no right to anonymous donations. Congress is quite free to demand disclosure as deeply into that flow of funds as they want.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  25. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Now THAT is something legislation can remedy. Ain't no right to anonymous donations.
    I agree 100% with your second statement there. The first part though...well...'can' leaves it up to legislators who might already be benefiting from the situation. And consider the size and extent of the lobby in favor of keeping it the way it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Congress is quite free to demand disclosure as deeply into that flow of funds as they want.
    Which party do you feel will push the issue? I believe they are both taking advantage of it.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  26. #116
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    I wonder if we'll ever know who is doing the talking?

    The Secret Sponsors
    Yeah, saw that this morning. And the articles in the NYT this week. And the other hang-wringing articles in the NYT the week before. They all seem to act like this is a recent, Republican-leaning phenomena. While some of the legal rights of this organizations have been expanded, opaque PACs are not new.

    The problem, Fuzzy, is that this isn't really about donations as much as it's about groups who run ads for a candidate (instead of plunking over cash). I think that's where the right to anonymity gets, well, fuzzy.

  27. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Being View Post
    The first part though...well...'can' leaves it up to legislators who might already be benefiting from the situation. And consider the size and extent of the lobby in favor of keeping it the way it is.
    Well that's the fundamental issue with any representative system, isn't it, regardless of whether money is or is not involved.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  28. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Well that's the fundamental issue with any representative system, isn't it, regardless of whether money is or is not involved.
    I'm having a hard time elucidating anonymous ads with a representative system of governance. How is representation working when people hide what they are pursuing.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  29. #119
    So that they aren't attacked for having and promoting a particular viewpoint that may be unpopular.

  30. #120
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    So that they aren't attacked for having and promoting a particular viewpoint that may be unpopular.
    That is oligarchy not representation.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

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