2012 Begins Now

[GGT]

Separating Lewk's GOP rally out of his pot thread (Positive Trend).

<Special request to Lewk --- PLEASE use the quote function as it was intended, and include the poster's name. It's actually easier than copying and pasting, or however you're doing what you do. That way we can all know who said what, in case we want to reply to them without scrolling up or paging back. Consider it a courtesy to all readers here, and not just to whose post you're replying.>

Pasting Lewk's last reply in the Positive Trend thread:

As it was for the last two years, all legislation that is passed is only done so by Democrat consent. Now however they will need to compromise with Republicans and can not simply ram down far left legislation. Personally I'm hoping for gridlock with someone like Romney winning in 2012. Then we can start working on the massive increase in deficits Obama and Democrats have given us.

Democrats controlled the legislative branches from 2007 through 2010. I wonder what most Americans think of when they think of the last four years of the economy...

[GGT]

and my reply.....

I think of the last ten years. Even recent decades, actually. When I hear Republican leadership announce their primary goal is making sure Obama is a one-term President, and there will be NO compromise with Democrats......that sounds clearly obstructionist to me.

[Ziggy Stardust]

As it was for the last two years, all legislation that is passed is only done so by Democrat consent. Now however they will need to compromise with Republicans and can not simply ram down far left legislation. Personally I'm hoping for gridlock with someone like Romney winning in 2012. Then we can start working on the massive increase in deficits Obama and Democrats have given us.

Democrats controlled the legislative branches from 2007 through 2010. I wonder what most Americans think of when they think of the last four years of the economy...

Couple of things. First, I'm not American, but I can recall what one American thought of the economy when Bush was in his last few months as president. That one American was convinced that the economy was doing a-ok. Those lefty scaremongers and their tales of impending doom were chicken littles seeing the sky fall. That one American changed his tune when Obama became president. I don't think that American is looking at the economy objectively but through partisan goggles. I bet he calls it the Obama recession. I feel that American is unfit to comment subjectively on the economy.

Then there's the quote: "I wonder what most Americans think of when they think of the last four years of the economy..." and "Then we can start working on the massive increase in deficits Obama and Democrats have given us.". So, he recognized that the fall of the economy started 4 years ago, but Obama and the Democrats are responsible for it. Holy backwards in Time Traveling Policy Making Batman, this Obama is more of a witchdoctor than I thought.

To summarize Lewk's comments in a way he can understand: To the Whaaaaambulance! "Whaaa Whaaaa!!!!! Democrats and Liberals destroying the economy the Republicans so skillfully made successful!!! Whaaaa!"

I predict that, since America is already crawling out of the recession, in two years time the rhetoric will be: Look, we got into the House and the economy got all better, yay us! Just like they said: Obama got elected and the economy busted. It's all so predictable and transparent.

[EyeKhan]

I predict that, since America is already crawling out of the recession, in two years time the rhetoric will be: Look, we got into the House and the economy got all better, yay us! Just like they said: Obama got elected and the economy busted. It's all so predictable and transparent.

I was thinking the same thing. Then they'll get power and set about fucking everything up again. Crazy shit.

[']['ear]

Lewk is honestly coming in here and saying "the massive increase in deficits Obama gave is?"

ONCE AGAIN:


Notice who initiates big increases in debt. Also, let's recall that of those who substantially increased debt, none faced anywhere near the existential crisis that Obama face.

So Lewk, you prefer that Obama and W had let our financial system collapse? That would have been GREAT for growth!


PS Look at the fracking inflection points!!!!

[Loki]

and my reply.....

I think of the last ten years. Even recent decades, actually. When I hear Republican leadership announce their primary goal is making sure Obama is a one-term President, and there will be NO compromise with Democrats......that sounds clearly obstructionist to me.

Who was obstructing Obama when the Democrats had 60% of the Senate and control of the House and presidency? I'm amazed how otherwise intelligent people can fall this idiotic spin.

I was thinking the same thing. Then they'll get power and set about fucking everything up again. Crazy shit.

If Obama wasn't so incompetent, he could have been making that argument in 2010.

[']['ear]

Loki, you have absolutely no evidence of Obama's "incompetence" except campaign boilerplate and unsupported innuendo. We've asked you over and over to back up your claims, and you just snake off by distorting what WE, say, what SOURCES say, or usually both.

[Steely Glint]

Who was obstructing Obama when the Democrats had 60% of the Senate and control of the House and presidency?

Democrat spinelessness.

[Loki]

Loki, you have absolutely no evidence of Obama's "incompetence" except campaign boilerplate and unsupported innuendo. We've asked you over and over to back up your claims, and you just snake off by distorting what WE, say, what SOURCES say, or usually both.

Remind me what he has accomplished when he had control of all branches of the government. And for someone who reflexively attacks anything remotely Republican or conservative, you really shouldn't be talking. FFS, stop projecting your own morality upon others.

Democrat spinelessness.

If a president can't even "convince" members of his own party, what use is he?

[Steely Glint]

Well, he's not a Republican. So there's that.

[EyeKhan]

If Obama wasn't so incompetent, he could have been making that argument in 2010.

Yes, the inability to remind everyone how bad the Republicans fucked the country up is mind boggling. But that's what Republicans get with their right wing media network and unlimited, secret source money-speech.

[Loki]

Yes, the inability to remind everyone how bad the Republicans fucked the country up is mind boggling. But that's what Republicans get with their right wing media network and unlimited, secret source money-speech.

Odd that you weren't making the same complaint in 2008, when the media was firmly on Obama's side, and the left raised far more money than the right. I guess it's only a problem when your idol doesn't benefit. It's also interesting that when the Republicans are in charge, any economic problem is their fault. When the Democrats are in charge, any economic problem is the fault of either the Republicans or the markets. Do you even try to be consistent?

Well, he's not a Republican. So there's that.

I.E. He gave money to anyone and everyone to avoid hard decisions and made absolutely no moves at genuine financial reform.

[EyeKhan]

Remind me what he has accomplished when he had control of all branches of the government. And for someone who reflexively attacks anything remotely Republican or conservative, you really shouldn't be talking. FFS, stop projecting your own morality upon others.

Holy Moly Lok, he got health reform and financial reform passed. Hate them or not, those are both gigantic milestones.

If a president can't even "convince" members of his own party, what use is he?

What use is checks and balances when the party is so lock-step it short circuits the system? The necessity to convince is how the system is supposed to work.

[Ominous Gamer]

I'm curious how the (un)employment problem will come up for 2012, it was used againist Obama's policies a lot in this election when making Democrats seem to liberal, but the problem is that most job losses happened before Obama's policies came into effect.

Remind me what he has accomplished when he had control of all branches of the government.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me.../promise-kept/

[Steely Glint]

And, of course, the democrats being complete pussies, who just let the Republicans completely frame and dominate the debate because they're cowering in fear of a shrill minority of retards.

[EyeKhan]

Odd that you weren't making the same complaint in 2008, when the media was firmly on Obama's side, and the left raised far more money than the right. I guess it's only a problem when your idol doesn't benefit. It's also interesting that when the Republicans are in charge, any economic problem is their fault. When the Democrats are in charge, any economic problem is the fault of either the Republicans or the markets. Do you even try to be consistent?

#1. How the fuck do you know what argument I was making in 2008? What else are you going to pull out your ass today?

#2. I will always make that argument no matter who is in power. Money does not = speech. Corporations and institutions do not = citizens. And the source of political advertising should never be secret. Period.

#3. Please argue for my amusement that the current economic troubles were caused by the Obama administration's policy. You might as well argue the wars were caused by the Obama Administration too. And global warming too, don't forget.

[Loki]

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me.../promise-kept/

Good to know that he kept such major promises as "changing standards for determining broadband access" and "increasing minority access to capital", while doing nothing to deal with: the gigantic fiscal deficits (and in fact, making them far, far worse), the ridiculous trade deficit, the exponentially expanding entitlement programs, financial reform that's not based on simply demonizing businessmen and cutting some of their wages, immigration, public sector pensions, military priorities (yay, he took tens of thousands of troops from one theater and put them into an even worse one), or generally make any tough decisions. But you're right, he did say a lot of things that made people happy knowing that Obama cares about them.

[Loki]

#1. How the fuck do you know what argument I was making in 2008? What else are you going to pull out your ass today?

You were around in 2008. You weren't attacking the Democrats for taking advantage of their huge fund-raising superiority.

#2. I will always make that argument no matter who is in power. Money does not = speech. Corporations and institutions do not = citizens. And the source of political advertising should never be secret. Period.

See above.

#3. Please argue for my amusement that the current economic troubles were caused by the Obama administration's policy. You might as well argue the wars were caused by the Obama Administration too. And global warming too, don't forget.

No, it's not Obama that has passed a massive stimulus package, increased spending on every program under the sun, and seems to show no sign of taming the deficit.

And, of course, the democrats being complete pussies, who just let the Republicans completely frame and dominate the debate because they're cowering in fear of a shrill minority of retards.

Ah yes, the Democrats don't act because they're good-natured but cowardly. The Republicans are the spawn of Satan trying to destroy the US and the world. Attempting to have a rational argument with you people is pointless.

[Ominous Gamer]

Good to know that he kept such major promises as "changing standards for determining broadband access" and "increasing minority access to capital

I'm actually surprised you read to item #4, when their are 20 items per page, and 7 pages, of whats been accomplished. You usually post without reading the links at all.

Maybe it would have been better if you reframed the question to exclude legislation that would make you look stupid/wrong?

[Ziggy Stardust]

I feel like I'm back in AtariCC

[Loki]

I'm actually surprised you read to item #4, when their are 20 items per page, and 7 pages, of whats been accomplished.

I skimmed all seven pages. The quality of that website is about the same as that of my torn socks. Apparently Obama promising to do something (i.e. no permanent bases in Iraq) is an example of him keeping his promise.

[EyeKhan]

You were around in 2008. You weren't attacking the Democrats for taking advantage of their huge fund-raising superiority.

No, in fact I railed against all the secret money that backed the democratic candidates. Oh wait-

See above.

Kiss my ass Loki, I just laid out for you exactly what I believe whatever the fuck you think you remember from 2008. Lets have some links to threads where I supported secret political spending just so long as it benefited democrats. Any evidence at all would be nice.

No, it's not Obama that has passed a massive stimulus package, increased spending on every program under the sun, and seems to show no sign of taming the deficit.

At least with Obama's horrific spending there's an actual point to it - instead of pissing away surplusses with completely unnecessary tax cuts, handing allies to Iran and trying to build violent tribal backwaters into nations all at a cost of trillions of dollars. Or would you have preferred an economic depression right now instead? You should pick your arguments better, like something you have a leg to stand on.

[LittleFuzzy]

Holy Moly Lok, he got health reform and financial reform passed. Hate them or not, those are both gigantic milestones.

What financial reform? I must have missed something, because I don't recall any financial reforms. Just some not particularly impressive partial tax increases and increases to spending which are keeping the alarming rise of deficit spending that Bush 2 initiated. How is keeping that rapidly rising deficit either reform or a milestone?

As for health reform, this leads us back to the fundamental disagreement you and I have. You think expansion and coverage is reform, and is the first step to fixing the system. It's not, it's simply extension of something very broken, and makes any attempt to actually FIX things harder. Reform would have involved cost-containment, reduction of the massive amount of middle-men and delay, efforts to expand the pool of health-care providers, removal of the excessive overhead and restrictions on actual patient care which are driving specialists out of their fields, etc. Health care reform wasn't passed, it was made incredibly more difficult, because that was easier to do politically. That is not political leadership, and it's only a milestone if you think mandating everyone have insurance is more important than trying to fix what's been pricing them OUT of the damned, incredibly expensive, and underperforming system.

I'm mostly ignoring Loki, but he and Hazir have one thing right. Whatever Obama was like on the campaign, in office he's been a political coward. He's avoided every hard choice that has come his way in the last two years.

[Ominous Gamer]

What financial reform? I must have missed something, because I don't recall any financial reforms.

He managed credit reform, which protected both consumers and businesses from some of the more abusive and deceptive practices of the industry.

[Loki]

Or would you have preferred an economic depression right now instead? You should pick your arguments better, like something you have a leg to stand on.

I automatically assume that anyone who makes this argument is an idiot. There's absolutely no proof that not having a stimulus would have led to a depression. In fact, Germany didn't really have a stimulus, and it has seen its unemployment rate plummet and has one of the highest growth rates in Europe now. All the stimulus did was temporarily keep some people in their jobs at a monumental cost to the economy. Look to Japan if you want to see what happens when the government tries to keep companies from laying off workers at all cost. The reality is that the only thing that promotes long-term employment is solid economic growth, and Obama has undermined the prospects of that growth with his fiscal policy.

[EyeKhan]

I automatically assume that anyone who makes this argument is an idiot.

Well, coming from you I will take no offense.

[Being]

I automatically assume that anyone who makes this argument is an idiot. There's absolutely no proof that not having a stimulus would have led to a depression. In fact, Germany didn't really have a stimulus, and it has seen its unemployment rate plummet and has one of the highest growth rates in Europe now. All the stimulus did was temporarily keep some people in their jobs at a monumental cost to the economy. Look to Japan if you want to see what happens when the government tries to keep companies from laying off workers at all cost. The reality is that the only thing that promotes long-term employment is solid economic growth, and Obama has undermined the prospects of that growth with his fiscal policy.

Um, Germany has some of the highest government subsidies in most of the free world. I guess you don't have to call that stimulus if you don't want to but...

[Loki]

Well, coming from you I will take no offense.

Care to tell me your rationale for making that argument other than once again stealing the talking points of leftist talking heads?

[EyeKhan]

Care to tell me your rationale for making that argument other than once again stealing the talking points of leftist talking heads?

Like Being said, in might depend on what you want to call stimulus. On the other hand, until not so long ago (less than a year iirc), Germany was the largest exporter in the world. The US is not even close despite being a much larger economy. Clearly our two economies are very different so maybe your comparison between the two is as sensible as apples and oranges. Numbers are juicy on the surface, though, arn't they? As long as you don't think too much about it, it makes your case, eh? How very conservative of you.

[Loki]

Like Being said, in might depend on what you want to call stimulus. On the other hand, until not so long ago (less than a year iirc), Germany was the largest exporter in the world. The US is not even close despite being a much larger economy. Clearly our two economies are very different so maybe your comparison between the two is as sensible as apples and oranges. Numbers are juicy on the surface, though, arn't they? As long as you don't think too much about it, it makes your case, eh? How very conservative of you.

What that means is that Germany was more affected by the global recession than we are. Despite that fact, it's in far better shape than we are now (both short-term and long-term). So again, give me an actual reason why throwing a trillion dollar in the garbage can actually helped us. According to Obama's own (false) estimates, the stimulus prevented the unemployment rate from rising 1-2%. Is that what you want to sacrifice the American economy for? Two years of a slightly lower unemployment rate? And you'll of course ignore the fact that the terrible economic climate fostered by Obama is directly responsible for companies being unwilling to hire new workers. That has had a far more profound effect on the unemployment rate than the stimulus.