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Thread: Income inequality in the US

  1. #1

    Default Income inequality in the US

    I ran across two interesting pieces in the Economist this week. In the first piece, they presented a chart collated from a recent paper examining countries not only on their median and mean wealth, but their inequality of wealth in determining which country one would most like to live in if you didn't know which wealth quintile you'd be in. Unsurprisingly, the US did significantly worse on this measure than, say, median GDP per capita in PPP.

    And yet, in the second piece from the Democracy in America blog, the author quotes a number of recent studies that challenge that income inequality has increased at all in the last decade or two, and that real wages for the bottom 10% have actually grown at a pretty decent clip in the last 30 years. Most of the inequality seen in other measures, they contend, are due to distortions in the measurement technique or can be stripped out by eliminating the top 1% of earners (i.e. you have 'super rich' getting richer, but everyone else's income inequality hasn't really gotten any worse).

    So: which viewpoint is likely true? I think it's reasonable to argue that the US is in general a less equal society than many of our rich country counterparts, and always has been. But is it getting worse? Have middle and lower class wages really been stagnant since the 70s? This is a commonly quoted statistic, but I think the reality might be more complex.

    Lastly, how should the above answers affect policy considerations?

  2. #2
    A little nitpick out of the way first

    real wages for the bottom 10% have actually grown at a pretty decent clip in the last 30 years.
    By real you mean actual buying power, not just currency adjusted for inflation?

    As for policy considerations, I have to re-iterate my tired old left-wing rants. Help young people get better education (an area that's not the US's strong suite) without huge disclaimers, dependencies and demands. Bring more people into the work-front of the educated, an area where all modern states must excel sooner or later as the third world gets its bearings. The lowest wages are reserved for those in the making, or those who are already lost. I'd contest it'd do the US better to lose less of them. How that should translate into real politik in a nation as diverse as yours, I have no idea. Placing the displaced isn't an easy thing, but it should be on top of the priority list, esp. in the US where it seems a lot of the displaced end up there due to a lacking safety net.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #3
    To answer your first question: yes, that was the metric used. I'll withhold comment on the rest until we hear from some more people.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    To answer your first question: yes, that was the metric used. I'll withhold comment on the rest until we hear from some more people.
    Some actual people, you mean
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  5. #5
    Are there important cost thresholds for healthcare, education, etc?
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  6. #6
    I also don't buy most of the argument that it's been getting worse. But I do think real income mobility has been harmed by the increasingly difficult business environment in the US. Our society and economy is generally geared towards flexibility, openness and creative destruction. But a lot of our business and regulatory law is not strategically built around those values, which means little pockets of bad business form.

    More cynically, I think much of the writing about this purported inequality has to do with the particular mindset of journalists. As I've said before, the best way to get the adrenaline pumping in a New York Times reporter is to bring up that someone is making over $100,000/year. Our media is under enormous pressures on their financials and business models; the media loves to try extrapolating their stagnant wages and precarious futures onto the whole economy.

  7. #7
    But a lot of our business and regulatory law is not strategically built around those values, which means little pockets of bad business form.
    And BIG pockets of bad business form. The huge stack of rules, regulations and liability issues cripple small business.

    For example I know a local successful business that delivers building material. They recently overhauled their structure and split the company into two companies. One operates the vehicles and employees the drivers and it now works on a contract basis for the original company which is the front end office and handles sales and ordering of supplies.

    Why do this? To limit liability in the event where a driver does something stupid (or even accused of such) and causes a massive wreck with people's lives being lost. In come the vultures... (lawyers)

    So what gain did society have from the mountain of paperwork, the additional accounting and legal fees paid by the company? Zilch, Zip Nada. Complete waste of time and effort all to avoid the *possibility* of something bad happening that probably won't even occur. This kind of risk is absurd and frightening for business owners. And yes there is liability insurance but it also has limitation and high costs as well.

  8. #8
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Ah. And the limit of liability in this case wouldn't happen to be close to zero because it only possesses the vehicles and nothing else?

    I mean, it looks suspiciously like the Gulf Spill scenario where BP first tried to weasel out because it was only their contractor which did wrong.
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    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    Are there important cost thresholds for healthcare, education, etc?
    Yes. Whenever I read those articles with charts, overlays of different charts would help. Often overlooked is the amount of debt used by the middle classes over the last couple of decades, just to "keep up" with rising costs of health care, education and housing, while income has remained flat or growth tepid (adjusted for inflation and all that).

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    A little nitpick out of the way first



    By real you mean actual buying power, not just currency adjusted for inflation?

    As for policy considerations, I have to re-iterate my tired old left-wing rants. Help young people get better education (an area that's not the US's strong suite) without huge disclaimers, dependencies and demands. Bring more people into the work-front of the educated, an area where all modern states must excel sooner or later as the third world gets its bearings. The lowest wages are reserved for those in the making, or those who are already lost. I'd contest it'd do the US better to lose less of them. How that should translate into real politik in a nation as diverse as yours, I have no idea. Placing the displaced isn't an easy thing, but it should be on top of the priority list, esp. in the US where it seems a lot of the displaced end up there due to a lacking safety net.
    The percentage of people with a college degree is at a record high right now. The problem is the rising disparity between the wages of college graduates and non-graduates.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  11. #11
    Ah. And the limit of liability in this case wouldn't happen to be close to zero because it only possesses the vehicles and nothing else?
    Well the vehicles are insured by an insurance company same as any driver on the road is. If a random person hits you or a company vehicle hits you, just because the company may have assets your entitled to try to slam them for millions? That is kinda absurd.

    I mean, it looks suspiciously like the Gulf Spill scenario where BP first tried to weasel out because it was only their contractor which did wrong.
    I don't know the details. IMO but in my example its more like a consumer orders pizza and the pizza delivery man hits someone, you shouldn't be able to go after the guy who ordered the pizza even though he was the one who contracted the services of Pizza hut to get you pizza.

    There should never be a difference between a business and a consumer what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

  12. #12
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    I don't quite see the issue. Either the insurance pays or the guy himself pays. I don't quite see why the company would be liable for the wrongdoings of an individual, even if he worked in the company.

    Liability only comes into play if the company itself does something wrong - like, not maintaining the vehicles properly, not ensuring that the drivers don't drive drunk and the like.

    Sounds to me like they want to skimp on maintenance, reduce wages and generally reduce benefits for the drivers. That is the usual motivation for offloading such an integral part of a company.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    I don't quite see the issue. Either the insurance pays or the guy himself pays. I don't quite see why the company would be liable for the wrongdoings of an individual, even if he worked in the company.

    Liability only comes into play if the company itself does something wrong - like, not maintaining the vehicles properly, not ensuring that the drivers don't drive drunk and the like.

    Sounds to me like they want to skimp on maintenance, reduce wages and generally reduce benefits for the drivers. That is the usual motivation for offloading such an integral part of a company.
    You don't live in America.

    There are tons of examples of employees doing something bad NOT because of company policy but in spite of it and the company still ends up getting reamed.

    For example:

    http://www.pogowasright.org/?p=5627

    *******
    A Kentucky appeals court upheld a $6.1 million award to a former fast food worker who was forced to strip in a McDonald’s restaurant office after someone called posing as a police officer.

    The appellate court on Friday ruled that Illinois-based McDonald’s Corp., knew about a series of hoax calls to restaurants around the country, but didn’t warn employees before Louise Ogborn was strip searched and sexually assaulted as the result of such a call in 2004.

    The appeals court ruled that to reverse the verdict would cut against the weight of the evidence.
    ******

    An employee does something stupid and somehow this is McDonald's fault? Absurd litigation in society.

    Or another example.

    http://www.pogowasright.org/?p=8659

    *******
    Court records indicate that McDonald’s Corp. (NYSE: MCD) and a franchisee have settled a $3 million lawsuit in which a customer said nude photos of his wife were copied from a cell phone he left in a McDonald’s restaurant.

    *******

    Once again, an employee does something foolish/unethical and the company pays.

    Was the employee acting according to McDonald's policies? Nope. But that didn't protect the company.

  14. #14
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Still, I contest that this move was done due to "litigation" - that's just a convenient excuse. I dare say that it was done to lower the wages of the drivers.

    Because THAT is the usual reason for such a move. You probably know the term. It's called "outsourcing".
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  15. #15
    Still, I contest that this move was done due to "litigation" - that's just a convenient excuse. I dare say that it was done to lower the wages of the drivers.
    Well I really can't say for sure since I don't work there but my read is different.

    Because THAT is the usual reason for such a move. You probably know the term. It's called "outsourcing".
    Well that term is usually used with the connotation of jobs going overseas. An issue that I don't particularly have a problem with. Though its annoying as all hell to talk to people on the phone who can't speak English clearly.

  16. #16
    Conclusion: Lewk hates his fellow Americans. Because they are the ones serving on juries, right?

  17. #17
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lewkowski View Post
    Well that term is usually used with the connotation of jobs going overseas. An issue that I don't particularly have a problem with. Though its annoying as all hell to talk to people on the phone who can't speak English clearly.
    Actually, "outsourcing" is not defined so narrowly. Basically it only means: Giving a former inhouse task to another company by contract.

    And you should have a problem with that: It actually means that companies can weasel out of their obligations. See BP as a prime example. If there hadn't been such a public shitstorm, do you really think they'd have spent even one penny on the issue?

    In your own example, the parent company could only lend the vehicles to its daughter. Which means, that, aside from the cash needed to pay the drivers, this daughter company has no real assets.

    So, what happens if this daughter company actually does do something wrong and they'd be obligated to pay (aside from your freak jury judgments)?
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ']['ear View Post
    Conclusion: Lewk hates his fellow Americans. Because they are the ones serving on juries, right?
    They're probably all liberals.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  19. #19
    Inside the Wealth Conspiracy: Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson

    By Jacob S. Hacker and Paul Pierson - Nov 22, 2010 9:00 PM ET
    Bloomberg Opinion

    Four years ago, then-Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson took a moment from his economic cheerleading to acknowledge that, yes, economic inequality had risen.

    Over the previous three decades, the share of pretax national income raked in by the richest 0.1 percent of Americans had more than quadrupled. By the time Paulson spoke, this tiny upper-crust of American households (average 2007 income: $7 million) brought home about $1 of every $8 earned in the U.S.

    Paulson expressed concern about the trend. Yet his basic message was that Americans should get used to it. Growing inequality, he declared, “is simply an economic reality, and it is neither fair nor useful to blame any political party.”

    Today, the gap between hardship on Main Street and profits on Wall Street is even more undeniable. Paulson’s view, though, is as widespread among the prosperous and powerful as ever. We hear again and again that those at the top are simply superstars, empowered by technological change and globalization to make vast fortunes. Public policy or partisan positions, in this common perspective, have little or nothing to do with it.

    The truth is, politicians in Washington haven’t been innocent bystanders in our steady march toward a much more unequal society. For 30 years, rising campaign costs and an explosion of lobbying activity made politicians from both parties more attentive to the concerns of those at the top of the economic ladder. The response has been a string of political decisions -- or deliberate failures to act -- that have abetted the shift of rewards to the upper rungs of the economic ladder.

    Listening to Bankers

    Paulson, in fact, provides a big clue about what happened. He, like so many recent prominent economic officials, straddled the worlds of Wall Street and Washington. President Barack Obama just continued this well-established practice by appointing financier Roger Altman to succeed Larry Summers as the head of his National Economic Council.

    Under Republicans and Democrats alike -- enthusiastically in the former case, more ambivalently in the latter -- Wall Street received an sympathetic ear, even though its practices were enriching just a tiny slice of Americans and posed real risks to the economy as a whole.

    Supporting the high fliers of finance was only one part of what American politicians did to build a winner-take-all economy. They also delivered repeated tax cuts that were exquisitely targeted at the most well-to-do, economic smart- bombs that showered cash on a select few. The effective tax rates of the richest taxpayers -- that is, the amount they actually pay -- plummeted from the late 1970s through the early 2000s.

    Quiet Power

    At other times Washington was a silent partner, sitting on its hands while economic changes rendered existing rules obsolete. New technologies and business models allowed bankers to outflank restrictions on their practices. Increasing capital mobility and regulatory passivity let corporations push out unions. As the foundations of broad-based postwar prosperity crumbled, powerful organizations urged Washington to do nothing, and Washington complied.

    Mark Twain once quipped that “everyone complains about the weather but nobody does anything about it.” Many analysts would have us view the dramatic increase in inequality with a similar spirit -- as a natural condition that we should accept without complaint. We should be skeptical of this view -- and not just because it’s obsolete even with regard to the weather.

    Inequality Isn’t Inevitable

    We should be skeptical because government policies don’t just reallocate income after the fact; they also shape how markets distribute the rewards. We should be skeptical because globalization and technological change, while creating pressures for inequality, don’t dictate economic outcomes.

    Other prosperous economies that are as globalized and networked as we are have seen limited growth in inequality. Moreover, where such tendencies have emerged, their political systems have pushed back. It is the U.S. that stands out as an exception, as it moves closer to the distributional structure characteristic of economic oligarchies such as Russia, Mexico or Brazil.

    The relevance of Washington to growing inequality is bad news for now. Newly empowered Republicans still push an agenda of deregulation, social-spending cuts, and high-income tax cuts that will promote rather than challenge this trend. Recently, Republican Senator-Elect Rand Paul took Paulson’s stance a dramatic step further, responding to a question about inequality by insisting “there are no rich…there are no poor.” Chastened Democrats are unable or unwilling to put up much resistance. Instead, they seem eager to offer an olive branch or two to the winners in our winner-take-all economy.

    In the long-run, though, the relevance of Washington is good news for those who view the trends of the past generation with concern. What happens in our politics matters a lot for how our economy operates, and for how its rewards and burdens are divided. Washington helped build an economy that showers so much on so few. It could help build an economy of shared prosperity as well.

    (Jacob Hacker is a professor of political science at Yale University. Paul Pierson is a professor of political science at the University of California at Berkeley. They are the co- authors of “Winner-Take-All Politics: How Washington Made the Rich Richer -- and Turned Its Back on the Middle Class.” The opinions expressed are their own.)
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-1...l-pierson.html


    Saw this article and remembered this thread. There was also a recent "study" showing that US minimum wage has purchasing power of 1968 levels (but can't find that link)

    Besides US policy (esp Bush tax cuts and our deficit/debt commission), it seems the whole globe is going through this philosophical, political and economical disaster of Winner-Take-All. Watching Iceland, Greece, Ireland going broke and needing bail-outs, watching the US bail-out Big Banks and Financial firms, QEI and QEII.

    Seems The Masters of The Universe have managed to wreak havoc on the whole world. Not sure I'd call it a conspiracy, but it's clear that income inequality = power inequality. Private profits with socialized losses. No wonder tax payers are pissed off at governments and banks, in bed together. Clusterfuck.

    Protesting or rioting, civil unrest, I think it will get worse.....everywhere.....

  20. #20
    Putting aside my belief that most on Wall Street are overpaid, Paulson was correct to state that people should adapt to some level of increased level of "inequality" (whatever that means) compared to the 1950s and 1960s.

    Holding up the payscales of those decades as a model is completely bananas. The US contained a disproportionate amount of capacity due to the Second World War. The government could throw insane tax rates at things like capital gains and expect it to be okay because of the stunning growth. Unionized manufacturers could agree to generous collective agreements because their foreign competition was so weak.

    Well, that age of American arrogance is over. The rest of the world has caught up. We can't expect easy rides anymore. But we can expect overall prosperity if we don't handle this like babies and cry for the economic patterns of 40-60 years ago.

  21. #21
    Dread, I'm not sure you're right on this one (though, as usual, I think GGT is almost entirely wrong as well). We make more value per person than we did in the 50s and 60s; sure the rate of change of that value creation is lower, but we are on the whole richer. Shouldn't Joe Schmoe then see a material improvement in his circumstances? Of course, I'm not sure that he hasn't seen such an improvement, but it's a fair question to ask.

  22. #22
    The problem is that good jobs in the '50s and '60s didn't require many skills (not ones that couldn't be taught on the job anyway). Most of the good jobs today require a college degree, and good analytical and social skills. For one reason or another, a substantial portion of Americans don't have that degree or those skills. The average college graduate today is far better off than an average college graduate half a century ago, and this is despite a sharp increase in the number of college graduates (which should theoretically decrease the value of a college degree).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    Putting aside my belief that most on Wall Street are overpaid, Paulson was correct to state that people should adapt to some level of increased level of "inequality" (whatever that means) compared to the 1950s and 1960s.

    Holding up the payscales of those decades as a model is completely bananas. The US contained a disproportionate amount of capacity due to the Second World War. The government could throw insane tax rates at things like capital gains and expect it to be okay because of the stunning growth. Unionized manufacturers could agree to generous collective agreements because their foreign competition was so weak.

    Well, that age of American arrogance is over. The rest of the world has caught up. We can't expect easy rides anymore. But we can expect overall prosperity if we don't handle this like babies and cry for the economic patterns of 40-60 years ago.
    The New Normal? Payscales of the 50s and 60s may seem like "bananas", but the disparity and inequality wasn't as blatant. People were able to go from poverty-income to middle-income. Sure, the world has changed. But we should still strive for middle-income and middle-class as the largest chunks of our society. Instead of a few wealthy chiefs with many millions of indians.

    The "arrogance" I see these days is concentrated in the top 2-10%, the big corporations with lobbyists, and the Republican party hell bent on policies meant to favor them at the expense of everyone else.

  24. #24
    Remind me what prevents a poor person from going to college and getting a decent salary as a result? Just because most don't doesn't mean they can't. We have a cultural problem, not a social mobility problem.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Dread, I'm not sure you're right on this one (though, as usual, I think GGT is almost entirely wrong as well). We make more value per person than we did in the 50s and 60s; sure the rate of change of that value creation is lower, but we are on the whole richer. Shouldn't Joe Schmoe then see a material improvement in his circumstances? Of course, I'm not sure that he hasn't seen such an improvement, but it's a fair question to ask.
    You might want to check the trend of our Gini Coefficient.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by wiggin View Post
    Dread, I'm not sure you're right on this one (though, as usual, I think GGT is almost entirely wrong as well). We make more value per person than we did in the 50s and 60s; sure the rate of change of that value creation is lower, but we are on the whole richer. Shouldn't Joe Schmoe then see a material improvement in his circumstances? Of course, I'm not sure that he hasn't seen such an improvement, but it's a fair question to ask.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    The New Normal? Payscales of the 50s and 60s may seem like "bananas", but the disparity and inequality wasn't as blatant. People were able to go from poverty-income to middle-income. Sure, the world has changed. But we should still strive for middle-income and middle-class as the largest chunks of our society. Instead of a few wealthy chiefs with many millions of indians.

    The "arrogance" I see these days is concentrated in the top 2-10%, the big corporations with lobbyists, and the Republican party hell bent on policies meant to favor them at the expense of everyone else.
    I should have clarified a few things in the vein of what Loki said-

    1) I think that the overall quality of life has improved and will continue to improve. But some of that improved quality of life may not be as accessible to those with less education or skills than before.

    2) Most distributions of wealth are fine as long as overall wealth increases and is fluid. Our corporations may be making record profits, but our economy is dynamic enough that their positions aren't unassailable. That dynamism is important, arguably more important than fantasizing about the "good old days" when any Joe could walk into Detroit with a GED and get a well-paid assembly-line job with a lifetime pension. Nostalgia is pointless when we're trying to keep an economy humming.

  27. #27
    Humming? How about picking up the gasping corpse from the emergency room floor?

    1) Yes, our standard of living has risen for most everyone in the US, and that's great. Public education is the key for accessibility and continued progress. But we're failing at that. The ones that don't drop out aren't keeping up with the rest of the world. There's been such a systemic LAG between education and skills to match the changing world, that we're playing catch-up for at least 2 generations, maybe 3.

    2) We focus too much on wealth and not enough on the basics, while the definition of Basic has escalated and progressed. This isn't romanticism about The Good Old Days (when an 8th grade education landed a job in a Detroit auto-assembly line), but a condemnation about our slowness to evolve with the world.

    No, we bicker about teacher pensions, the DoE, charter schools, property taxes, costs per pupil, government grants and student aid for college....all about the money aspects....but little toward making the US a First Class A-One nation for education. The proof is in our willingness to cut funding for public education (save some bucks), at a time when education is more important than ever. Go go USA #1!


  28. #28
    I have a feeling that if someone would give you a million dollars, you'd find a reason to complain. You complain about action and inaction. You complain about support and opposition to the same policies. You complain about programs being immune from cuts and then complain about programs not being immune from cuts.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Remind me what prevents a poor person from going to college and getting a decent salary as a result?
    Time and money would be my guess.
    . . .

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Illusions View Post
    Time and money would be my guess.
    Community colleges are virtually free. Most 4-year public colleges can easily be paid for by student loans. Many people are able to get through college while working part-time, and most colleges are fairly flexible when it comes to people who hold full-time jobs.
    Hope is the denial of reality

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