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Thread: Academic expertise and democracy

  1. #1

    Default Academic expertise and democracy

    I was just reading an academic article by a prominent civil war scholar, went to her webpage to see if she has any related work, and found the following piece in the Huffington Post:

    When I first began research into religion and global politics, I began by trying to approach it as I had most of my previous research: canvas previous efforts, formulate some new conjectures, and then seek out real-world evidence that might test them. It didn't work...

    ...We should perhaps expect no less difficulty where theorizing about religiously-inspired violence is concerned, but two important points are in order here. First, religiously-inspired actors are rational, but like nationalists, their rationality is different. It follows that second, we need not avoid theorizing about religious actors because their rationality differs from our common understandings.

    That said, what remains is to convince a broad audience that the study of religion and politics -- and in particular religiously-inspired violence -- is crucial; and that building general theories about religious violence can illuminate important features -- not only of religiously-inspired violence -- but of organized violence more generally.

    I and (at present) a small number of colleagues have already undertaken much of this work, but by way of conclusion, allow me to introduce a bit of the empirical side of contemporary religion and politics. Three features in particular are worth noting.
    First, religion is not necessarily the sole driving force of much of the large-scale violence we see today. Nationalism remains a powerful peer competitor. Since 1940 only about one-third of all civil wars had a religious basis, and of these only about half featured religion as a central issue. However, if you look at the nature of ongoing civil wars, half of them now have religion as an element. More often than not religion is married to nationalism. Religion alone is rarely the sole culprit.

    Consider the 1979 Iranian Revolution, which is about as close as we get to a religiously-motivated political event. A common narrative interferes with our understanding of what happened. That narrative invokes the image of religiously-inspired (read: irrational), hot-headed mobs spontaneously rising to overwhelm and overturn established order (the international news media remain somewhat complicit in this: when was the last time you can remember seeing "Iranians" on TV doing anything other than glowering, shouting, or threatening?). But had the Shah not previously made such a hash of Iran's economy and political system, revolution would not have succeeded. The country was ripe for revolution; whether religiously-inspired or not. Ayatollah Khomeini and his followers were enterprising, and acted strategically: they returned from exile just in time to tip the already tottering apple cart (just as Vladimir Lenin did in Russia in 1917). Even in this case, religion and religious motivation were only part of the story. It is this aspect of unraveling religion and its role in violence that has made research into the dynamics so complex and frustrating, yet exciting.

    Second, even where religion is only part of the story, it seems (and we need more research to understand why and how) to make the conflict more intense and more harmful to noncombatants. Such conflicts are also less likely to end short of total victory by one side over another (but this is not necessarily a bad thing in the longer term -- I just finished a book exploring why this is the case).

    Third, just as religious civil wars in the aggregate may not be the most common type of civil war since 1940 (the current decade aside), religiously-motivated acts within a civil war may be rare. More recently I have begun researching the nature of violence in the Caucasus region of the Russian Federation, disaggregating violence motivated by religion from that which is not. It turns out that for the period of 2000-2008, only four percent of the violence can be attributed to religious (Islamist) actors with a purely religious motivation. Yes, that is correct, four percent -- and this during a period in which a supposedly Islamist-supported civil war (if Russia is to be believed) was raging in Chechnya.

    On the other hand, this four percent of violence was more fatal. And, as a proportion of all violence, religiously-motivated violence increased over the period. The same pattern appears to hold true for religiously-inspired suicide terrorism. Research by Assaf Moghadam, for instance, has shown that religiously-motivated suicide terrorism (largely of the Salafi-jihadist variant) resulted in higher casualties than similar attacks motivated by other concerns; and that as a proportion of activity, has been increasing over the past decade.

    In sum, religious actors are as apt to be rational in a broader sense as nationalist, and even state actors. The nature of this rationality needs to be explained in the service of accounting for the tendency of religiously-inspired violence to be more intense than violence inspired by other motivations. Moreover, as the Chechnya case highlights, it is not only from concern that irrational actors make poor foundations for general theories that we haven't had sufficient research, but also from the extreme political utility of framing one's adversaries as irrational: who respects limitations of force against, for example, "wolves?" (It is no accident that animals of various sorts are frequently chosen by states to characterize their adversaries.) Recovering the rationality of our adversaries thus forces us to recognize their humanity, and by extension, to both acknowledge our own failings to treat them justly, and acknowledge limits on how we may act toward them. Understanding religion, religion and politics, and religiously-inspired violence in these terms makes the enterprise as necessary as it is rewarding.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/monica..._b_608366.html

    There's nothing remotely controversial in that post, and the author basically just summarizes relevant knowledge in the field. It doesn't exactly attack leftist sensibilities either (most of the people who visit the Huffington Post are fairly left wing). Yet if you read the comments in that thread, you see a combination of: a complete inability to understand the author's point (which wasn't very complicated), attacks against the author's bias (apparently Harvard is evil or something), and a rejection of the author's views for the vaguest of reasons. And this is on a topic that's not a political wedge issue, which means it's not nearly as polarized as many other issues in politics.

    The point I'm trying to make is how can experts attempt to inform the public and make academic research relevant to it, which would produce a more informed citizenry, with everything that entails, when the public is either too stupid or too ideological to accept or at least properly evaluate those arguments? The more ideological a person is, the more likely they are to vote, but they are also the least likely to accept information that isn't in accord with their preconceptions. For the first time in modern history, regular citizens have the ability to become informed, and do so at a minimal cost to their time, but yet they refuse to do so. Can democracy properly function it light of this reality? Is there any value to academic knowledge when it is impossible to apply?
    Hope is the denial of reality

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    There's nothing remotely controversial in that post, and the author basically just summarizes relevant knowledge in the field. It doesn't exactly attack leftist sensibilities either (most of the people who visit the Huffington Post are fairly left wing). Yet if you read the comments in that thread, you see a combination of: a complete inability to understand the author's point (which wasn't very complicated), attacks against the author's bias (apparently Harvard is evil or something), and a rejection of the author's views for the vaguest of reasons. And this is on a topic that's not a political wedge issue, which means it's not nearly as polarized as many other issues in politics.
    Religion plus politics is a wedge issue for lots of people. At least for those who want to make it so.


    The point I'm trying to make is how can experts attempt to inform the public and make academic research relevant to it, which would produce a more informed citizenry, with everything that entails, when the public is either too stupid or too ideological to accept or at least properly evaluate those arguments? The more ideological a person is, the more likely they are to vote, but they are also the least likely to accept information that isn't in accord with their preconceptions. For the first time in modern history, regular citizens have the ability to become informed, and do so at a minimal cost to their time, but yet they refuse to do so. Can democracy properly function it light of this reality? Is there any value to academic knowledge when it is impossible to apply?
    I don't think it's a refusal to become informed, but being overwhelmed by so much information. Possibly picking out one or two pet peeves and running with it. As you say, first time in modern history we have access to so much, and it's not filtered or organized for the user....it's just "all out there". Combine that with the ability to "post comments", millions of people multi-tasking with media, being distracted with short attention spans..... and it can look like a mess.

    That doesn't mean academic knowledge isn't valuable for the masses, or that the public is "too stupid".

  3. #3
    It's a leftist source. Most leftists believe that the non-Western world isn't that much different to the West, so there's little ideological reason to attack the author's conclusions in that regard (in fact, virtually none of the people there attack the author for that reason).

    I can't recall reading a single well-thought piece about civil war in a mainstream source before finding this. So no, there really isn't that much information out there. One just has to differentiate well-written, well-researched information from opinionated, uncorroborated bullshit. And there's the fact that a vast majority of the people who read that piece and commented on it simply didn't get the author's point.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The more ideological a person is, the more likely they are to vote, but they are also the least likely to accept information that isn't in accord with their preconceptions.
    Well, you've answered your own question so let's get on to a more important and actionable one, where do those preconceptions come from? If you have any control over the formation of preconceptions then you have some control over ideology.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  5. #5
    The point of this thread is that people weren't willing to accept an expert analysis even though it didn't strictly go against their preconceptions.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  6. #6
    It's a leftist source. Most leftists believe that the non-Western world isn't that much different to the West,
    This statement seems ridiculous. I just have never gotten that impression, or where the basis for the claim would come from.

    By knowing the source, one my gauge the intention or goal of the piece, but you don't need to know the source to appreciate it as is, and to determine for yourself whether the information or statement is relevant/legitimate.

  7. #7
    You made it sound like the "mainstream source" was Huffington, and you found that after you'd read the academic article. (I didn't click your link.)

    If you're criticizing reader-comments on Huffington, they may be posting to other posters, or to the Huffington writer. That happens at left and right sources all the time.

    If you're truly concerned about academics reaching the unwashed masses, and encouraging more thoughtful and informed citizenry in our democracy, I'd say start by not calling citizenry stupid/ignorant/stubborn.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The more ideological a person is, the more likely they are to vote, but they are also the least likely to accept information that isn't in accord with their preconceptions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The point of this thread is that people weren't willing to accept an expert analysis even though it didn't strictly go against their preconceptions.
    Well, make up your mind...
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  9. #9
    Let sleeping tigers lie Khendraja'aro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The point I'm trying to make is how can experts attempt to inform the public and make academic research relevant to it, which would produce a more informed citizenry, with everything that entails, when the public is either too stupid or too ideological to accept or at least properly evaluate those arguments?
    We recently had the president of the German chamber of physicians demand a stronger mixture of homeopathy and regular medicine. If even those guys, who should know better, make these inane demands, then who does?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lebanese Dragon View Post
    This statement seems ridiculous. I just have never gotten that impression, or where the basis for the claim would come from.
    Well, that's an old Loki trick. Conjure "facts" out of thin air and hope they swallow it without thinking. Shady tactic.
    When the stars threw down their spears
    And watered heaven with their tears:
    Did he smile his work to see?
    Did he who made the lamb make thee?

  10. #10
    It's the Huffington Post; anyone can post anything. But the commenters there are sort of notoriously cranks, and can say idiotic things that they wouldn't in person. And I think that makes a big difference -- if this professor read this speech in a room she would probably dispatch with words anyone who approached the microphone with some inane counterpoint.

    More specifically to the commenters, most people who read that page won't read the commenters (besides the commenters themselves). It's like if I were to comment on a typically inane Paul Krugman column on the NYTimes Website. Sure, I could post anything they let me post. But the vast majority of people on the page would read his words, nod their head in approval and close the window.

    Ultimately I don't think the loudest voices on an online message board are so loud that people can't tune them out.

  11. #11
    Loki, are you asking as a future "academic expert" who'd want your writings to be covered by mainstream sources and read by mainstream public?

    Or are you complaining that academic experts are misunderstood by the public and here's your proof?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    It's the Huffington Post; anyone can post anything. But the commenters there are sort of notoriously cranks, and can say idiotic things that they wouldn't in person. And I think that makes a big difference -- if this professor read this speech in a room she would probably dispatch with words anyone who approached the microphone with some inane counterpoint.

    More specifically to the commenters, most people who read that page won't read the commenters (besides the commenters themselves). It's like if I were to comment on a typically inane Paul Krugman column on the NYTimes Website. Sure, I could post anything they let me post. But the vast majority of people on the page would read his words, nod their head in approval and close the window.

    Ultimately I don't think the loudest voices on an online message board are so loud that people can't tune them out.
    The only people who'll hear the professor in person are Harvard students, and I don't think we have to worry too much about making them informed. Regarding the comments, I wasn't saying that people would read the comments. My point is that the comments suggest that the people who read the story didn't understand or dismissed it out of hand. I know they're not strictly representative of the people who read the Huffington Post, but their responses don't seem to be all that different to what we get here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khendraja'aro View Post
    We recently had the president of the German chamber of physicians demand a stronger mixture of homeopathy and regular medicine. If even those guys, who should know better, make these inane demands, then who does?
    There's no denying there are a idiots amongst the experts.

    Well, that's an old Loki trick. Conjure "facts" out of thin air and hope they swallow it without thinking. Shady tactic.
    When you find yourself in agreement with Leb, that's a pretty good sign that you should rethink your view. The right is the one that usually claims that non-Westerners are inherently different (and therefore shouldn't be allowed to immigrate to the West), that they aren't as rational, that they have inferior morals, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Loki, are you asking as a future "academic expert" who'd want your writings to be covered by mainstream sources and read by mainstream public?

    Or are you complaining that academic experts are misunderstood by the public and here's your proof?
    It's not a proof; it's an example. Plenty of other examples in this very forum. I thought it was a good example because of how uncontroversial and well-written the piece was.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post

    It's not a proof; it's an example. Plenty of other examples in this very forum. I thought it was a good example because of how uncontroversial and well-written the piece was.
    Ah, so your title could easily have been, "Voters Are Too Stupid For Democracy" ?? Or, "The Internet Is Wasted On Educating The Voter" ??

    Your bias is showing.

  14. #14
    Thanks for providing another example.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The only people who'll hear the professor in person are Harvard students, and I don't think we have to worry too much about making them informed. Regarding the comments, I wasn't saying that people would read the comments. My point is that the comments suggest that the people who read the story didn't understand or dismissed it out of hand.
    You're generalizing about "people who read the piece" from "people who commented on the piece." Does anything about that strike you as perhaps insufficiently rigorous?
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    You're generalizing about "people who read the piece" from "people who commented on the piece." Does anything about that strike you as perhaps insufficiently rigorous?
    See my responses above. I'm not generalizing. I'm using it as an example. I've seen enough examples in various settings to suggest that there's likely something underlying them. This isn't just limited to poli sci by the way. I read an informed critique of a baseball player's value a few days ago, and as usual, most of the comments were entirely dismissive, due to the author's conclusions, not his arguments (and many of the supportive comments were supportive for the same reason). Heck, there's a reason there are more people supportive of the arguments put forth by an O'Reilly or an Olbermann than by a Zakaria.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    See my responses above. I'm not generalizing. I'm using it as an example. I've seen enough examples in various settings to suggest that there's likely something underlying them. This isn't just limited to poli sci by the way. I read an informed critique of a baseball player's value a few days ago, and as usual, most of the comments were entirely dismissive, due to the author's conclusions, not his arguments (and many of the supportive comments were supportive for the same reason). Heck, there's a reason there are more people supportive of the arguments put forth by an O'Reilly or an Olbermann than by a Zakaria.
    You dismissed my hypothesis outright.

    IMO this is just an early symptom of the New World of mass media and the internet. Loads of information, access by almost everyone, all around the world, with the ability to post comments. Your bias suggests that you want examples to prove just how stupid the public is, instead of examining these new tools themselves.

    I'll bet when the printing press took off, and the Town Crier was available to people to read news, you'd have been a critic then, too. All those dumb people reading news. Bah, how could they really know how to think and form an opinion.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The only people who'll hear the professor in person are Harvard students, and I don't think we have to worry too much about making them informed. Regarding the comments, I wasn't saying that people would read the comments. My point is that the comments suggest that the people who read the story didn't understand or dismissed it out of hand. I know they're not strictly representative of the people who read the Huffington Post, but their responses don't seem to be all that different to what we get here.
    I would wager they are representative of the people to read HuffPo.

    But actually, I think the comments are representative of the comments. Folks tend to say things online that are perhaps more intense and dismissive than they would in real life. In person I don't come off as the absolutist that I probably do here. Though I also tend to avoid political discussions in person. Which is itself probably a big difference.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreadnaught View Post
    I would wager they are representative of the people to read HuffPo.

    But actually, I think the comments are representative of the comments. Folks tend to say things online that are perhaps more intense and dismissive than they would in real life. In person I don't come off as the absolutist that I probably do here. Though I also tend to avoid political discussions in person. Which is itself probably a big difference.
    They might not say those thing in real life, but they'll still believe them and act on those beliefs.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    They might not say those thing in real life, but they'll still believe them and act on those beliefs.
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    You're generalizing about "people who read the piece" from "people who commented on the piece." Does anything about that strike you as perhaps insufficiently rigorous?
    So much for considering yourself an academic, huh Loki.

  21. #21
    You know, we already have one Being in this forum; we don't need two. Don't you have an apocalypse to worry about?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You know, we already have one Being in this forum; we don't need two. Don't you have an apocalypse to worry about?
    Your troll attempts don't work very well any more. Poor Loki. How much longer in those cornfields?

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    See my responses above. I'm not generalizing. I'm using it as an example. I've seen enough examples in various settings to suggest that there's likely something underlying them. This isn't just limited to poli sci by the way. I read an informed critique of a baseball player's value a few days ago, and as usual, most of the comments were entirely dismissive, due to the author's conclusions, not his arguments (and many of the supportive comments were supportive for the same reason)
    Again, the people who comment on a piece, often under pseudonyms. It doesn't really even tell you anything about the commenters' absorption of the knowledge, much less the much larger number of readers who did not comment, since your assumption that people are merely saying what they believe is, at the least, premature.
    Last night as I lay in bed, looking up at the stars, I thought, “Where the hell is my ceiling?"

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by LittleFuzzy View Post
    Again, the people who comment on a piece, often under pseudonyms. It doesn't really even tell you anything about the commenters' absorption of the knowledge, much less the much larger number of readers who did not comment, since your assumption that people are merely saying what they believe is, at the least, premature.
    Unless someone is trolling, why would someone write an opinion that wasn't theirs? Again, I'm not saying that these people are strictly representative of the Huffington Post readers, but given the nature of the story (i.e. not something that would offend leftist sensibilities and not on a topic that most Americans care about), I would expect a decent level of discourse from at least some of the posters. It's one thing to say that these people as a group aren't representative of all readers of that website. But it's quite another to say that virtually none of the readers reflect the general audience.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The more ideological a person is, the more likely they are to vote, but they are also the least likely to accept information that isn't in accord with their preconceptions.
    Didn't we already have this conversation? When that study came out that showed how to make conservatives more stupid?

    Little late here, but to emphasize Fuzzy's point, replace HuffingtonPost with Youtube or 4chan People still don't see the internet as "real", anonymity makes us asshats; combine that obvious information with the fact that Loki made this thread, and this becomes even more hilarious.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Didn't we already have this conversation? When that study came out that showed how to make conservatives more stupid?

    Little late here, but to emphasize Fuzzy's point, replace HuffingtonPost with Youtube or 4chan
    I expect idiocy from Youtube and 4chan (and Yahoo news). Huffington Post readers are at least somewhat informed.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I expect idiocy from Youtube and 4chan (and Yahoo news). Huffington Post readers are at least somewhat informed.
    Are you claiming your examples are incapable of being serious? If so, what is that assumption based on, and why can't the pendulum swing the other way?
    Online, context means nothing.

  28. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Unless someone is trolling, why would someone write an opinion that wasn't theirs? Again, I'm not saying that these people are strictly representative of the Huffington Post readers, but given the nature of the story (i.e. not something that would offend leftist sensibilities and not on a topic that most Americans care about), I would expect a decent level of discourse from at least some of the posters. It's one thing to say that these people as a group aren't representative of all readers of that website. But it's quite another to say that virtually none of the readers reflect the general audience.
    Yeah, those damn people! How dare they screw up your pre-conceived notions of what commenters should say on.....the Huffington Post?

    Why don't you sign on and post there, to tell the readers how they don't reflect the general audience, and how stupid they sound.


  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Are you claiming your examples are incapable of being serious? If so, what is that assumption based on, and why can't the pendulum swing the other way?
    Online, context means nothing.
    I don't understand your point. The general reader of the Huffington Post is going to be more informed and less likely to be a lunatic than the general reader/listener of Youtube and 4chan. Heck, as much as I don't like the comments on the story I posted, they're miles above anything you'll see from youtube, 4chan, or Yahoo posters.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #30
    Yeah! Nobody that posts on Huffington Post would be caught dead posting on youtube, 4chan, or Yahoo.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

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