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Thread: Two Faces of American Diplomacy

  1. #31
    Seems that some of the "right-wing media" here have cottoned on to what I started saying last night. From a blog post from Benedict Brogan, Deputy Editor of the Torygraph:
    Quote Originally Posted by Benedict Brogan
    Wikileaks is embarrassing – but not serious
    The Wikileaks story is great fun. The embarrassment of others always is. But however much the Guardian, the New York Times and Julian Assange assure us that this represents a shattering blow to every assumption we hold about foreign relations, the fact remains that it’s a collection of little substance that will do nothing to reshape geo-politics. The Saudis would like someone to whack Iran? No kidding. Afghanistan is run by crooks? Really? Hillary Clinton would like to know a lot more about the diplomats she is negotiating against? You surprise me. The Russian government may have links to organised crime? Pass the smelling salts, Petunia. The Americans are secretly whacking al-Qaeda operatives in Yemen? What, you thought the Yemenis were doing it? Muammar Qaddafi has a full time, pneumatic Ukrainian ‘nurse’? Nice one. Diplomats are terrified of Pakistan’s nukes? Me too. And so on, ad infinite boredom. Perhaps something better will pop up, but nothing I’ve read since last night’s surprises.

    So the news value of this story is the embarrassment it’s causing. And embarrassment can in some cases be devastating. Countries with no tradition of openness or internet-led subversion will find it mystifying that the American government has allowed this to happen. It may at the margins damage relationships. And of course it will do nothing for the credibility of the Obama administration. Those concerned are issuing indignant statements condemning Wikileaks and its oddball boss. This rather reinforces the case of those who say Wikileaks is simply not serious. Effective diplomacy involves all the transgressions Wikileaks is exposing. Embarrassment is just the consequence of exposure. Perhaps the more sophisticated response is to stand firm, to assume a degree of worldiness from those involved in the world of diplomacy (who will for example enjoy seeing the US Secretary of State squirming about her UN spying operation, but only because theirs hasn’t been exposed as well), and to accept that occasional embarrassment is an occupational hazard in a 21st century marked by vast quantities of information circulating in all too accessible digital form.
    Anyone who thought emails were a secure means of communication, that private conversations stay private or that leaks never happen is not living in the real world or has been living under a rock for the last few decades. This is no Watergate, its tiddle-taddle and its stuff we all knew about, just on a grand scale.

  2. #32
    How the hacker attacks which forced Google to quit China in January were orchestrated by a senior member of the Politburo who typed his own name into the global version of the search engine and found articles criticising him personally.
    Allegations that Russia and its intelligence agencies are using mafia bosses to carry out criminal operations, with one cable reporting that the relationship is so close that the country has become a "virtual mafia state".
    Welp.
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Anyone who thought emails were a secure means of communication, that private conversations stay private or that leaks never happen is not living in the real world or has been living under a rock for the last few decades. This is no Watergate, its tiddle-taddle and its stuff we all knew about, just on a grand scale.
    Name the last time this many diplomatic cables were leaked. Thought so. As for your citing of a worthless newspaper editor, how about you look at what diplomats and military men (past and present) are saying.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  4. #34
    Some people reflexively hype everything, others reflexively downplay everything. Business as usual indeed.

    Personally, China hacking google, diplomats being instructed to steal passwords and and DNA, bizarro stuff such as this... well that's interesting to me.
    "One day, we shall die. All the other days, we shall live."

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Name the last time this many diplomatic cables were leaked. Thought so. As for your citing of a worthless newspaper editor, how about you look at what diplomats and military men (past and present) are saying.
    This is just a matter of scale, not scope, agreed?

    People may be saying things but then that's always the case. If any of these politicians etc said it was no big deal and something big came up then that'd ruin their career.

    I didn't quote the editorial because it proves my point but because I agree with it all.

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The kings of Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Jordan for starters. Ditto for the president of Yemen and the Crown Prince of the Saudis. This will definitely spook lower-level officials in those countries who don't want to be on record saying something that is contrary to their country's professed foreign policy.
    NONE of those are actual NAMES! DAMMIT!
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  7. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Welp.
    Yeah. That's pretty candid stuff.
    The Rules
    Copper- behave toward others to elicit treatment you would like (the manipulative rule)
    Gold- treat others how you would like them to treat you (the self regard rule)
    Platinum - treat others the way they would like to be treated (the PC rule)

  8. #38
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    Loki is absolutely right, it is not just embarrassing for some leaders to read back their own words; a Saudi leader known to be pleading for the US/Israel bombing Iran has lost face in a serious way.
    Congratulations America

  9. #39
    http://www.nunomonteiro.org/the-weakileaks-do-it-again

    Same argument as mine, only written more elegantly.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  10. #40
    Rand, these were secret messages that were mass-downloaded and leaked by someone with security clearance. They weren't your everyday work e-mails.

    Reading the stories in the NY Times in more detail today, the stuff on the Middle Eastern leaders is devastating. An Arab defense minister calling Ahmadinejad "Hitler", others forcefully asking the US to make a military strike, the President of Lebanon saying that the US should have invaded Iran instead of Iraq...it's not surprising to us outside observers, but in the political ferment of the region that's devastating stuff.

  11. #41
    Why didn't these government officials have more secure e-mail, or stricter security clearance?

  12. #42
    It was secure...It was leaked by an insider with security clearance...
    Hope is the denial of reality

  13. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It was secure...It was leaked by an insider with security clearance...
    Then they've been too loose with their security clearances.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by GGT View Post
    Then they've been too loose with their security clearances.
    How's that? The guy was in army intelligence...You think intelligence analysts in the field shouldn't have security clearance?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_wikileaks_security
    Hope is the denial of reality

  15. #45
    The Pentagon detailed new security safeguards, including restraints on small computer flash drives, to make it harder for any one person to copy and reveal so many secrets.
    The young Army Pfc. suspected of stealing the diplomatic memos, many of them classified, and feeding them to WikiLeaks may have defeated Pentagon security systems using little more than a Lady Gaga CD and a portable computer memory stick.

    In his Internet chat, Manning described the conditions as lax to the point that he could bring a homemade music CD to work with him, erase the music and replace it with secrets. He told the computer hacker who would turn him in that he lip-synched along with pop singer Lady Gaga's hit "Telephone" while making off with "possibly the largest data spillage in American history."
    Wired.com published a partial log of Manning's discussions with hacker R. Adrian Lamo in June.
    "Weak servers, weak logging, weak physical security, weak counterintelligence, inattentive signal analysis," Manning wrote. "A perfect storm."

    By his own admission, Manning was apparently able to pull material from outside the Pentagon, including documents he had little obvious reason to see.

    So far, he said, Pentagon officials are not reviewing who has access to data but focusing instead on installing technical safeguards.

    Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said the WikiLeaks case revealed vulnerable seams in the information-sharing systems used by multiple government agencies. Some of those joint systems were designed to answer another problem: the failure of government agencies to share what they knew before the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

    "This is a personnel security issue, more than it is a technical issue," said Meyerrose, now a vice president at Harris Corp. "How can you prevent a pilot from flying the airplane into the ground? You can't. Anybody you give access to can become a disgruntled employee or an ideologue that goes bad."
    One official in contact with U.S. military and diplomatic staff in Iraq said they already were seeing the effect of a tighter collar on information.
    The State Department and other agencies are restricting access among the Army and nonmilitary agencies, the official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss the sharing of classified information.



  16. #46
    Yemen is the one that interests me the most, so far.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  17. #47
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

    Wow, the guy comes off as a total nutjob.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  18. #48
    Apparently Hillary Clinton was told by 'a counterpart' "well, don’t worry about it, you should hear what we say about you…"

  19. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by RandBlade View Post
    Apparently Hillary Clinton was told by 'a counterpart' "well, don’t worry about it, you should hear what we say about you…"
    Apparently she also commissioned Ameican dioplmats to spy.
    Faith is Hope (see Loki's sig for details)
    If hindsight is 20-20, why is it so often ignored?

  20. #50
    Apparently the sun rises in the East.

  21. #51
    You know the one thing that blew my mind about Julian Assange and the Wikileaks document dump? The way the US reacted to it. The fact that people read those cables and were shocked, shocked, that the world runs this way! It's as if everyone acted suddenly surprised and found themselves shocked to discover that they were tricked into believing that diplomats were somehow supposed to be different from the rest of us. The leaks made clear that world diplomatic relations between countries are no different from our own shitty relations with each other in regular society, like that contractor who disappeared with the deposit I gave him for my sink repair or the dodgy mechanic who swapped out my tires when he fixed my brake pads.

    The world is full of shit. And the world is at war, humans are at war, constantly and on every level. Between nations, between citizens and their rulers, between citizens and other citizens, between you and your own friends. War is the base level of human reality, war for resources, war for status, war for success, war for money, pussy and land. War to prove I'm better than you. Like Clausewitz said, "War is the continuation of diplomacy by other means". It's the point where hate gets physical.

    That's reality.

    Contrary to the world presented on TV by those trying to sell you shit.

    News media presents an image of reality that people sense is bullshit but would like to live up to anyway. As an example, Wikileaks revealed that American diplomats think England's Prince Andrew is a rude asshole, but suddenly that's controversial when it's leaked. Why? Because Prince Andrew probably is an asshole but that isn't allowed to be known, voicing that experience off the record by those who've met him is a non allowable media experience, instead, the media consensus (and so the manufactured one) is that Prince Andrew is automatically good because he's a prince. No reporter ever ran the story of Prince Andrew being a prick as it doesn't make for a good story because the rich don't like the idea of it and the plebs don't need to know anyway. When Wikileaks document dumps the truth that American diplomats who've met him think that way, everyone ends up shocked.

    Wikileaks here reveals a fundamental disconnect between how the world is portrayed as a 'feel good wish fulfillment consumer phantasmagoria' in the media and the actual world you meet everyday when the alarm clock blares and rushes you to your cubicle as a wage slave; all so you can keep the lights on and food in your gut.

    Life is war and you're the civilian.

    My favourite leak is that US and UK diplomats are shitting bricks about the current state of Pakistan and the fate of its ever growing nuclear arsenal. Oh really? I've been shitting about that since 2003. It's only a shocking revelation because the media never reports it. So when we find out that diplomats have no idea who controls the nukes there, that 100,000 Pakistani personnel are involved in the nuclear program there and the Taliban captured the Swat valley with collusion from Islamacists in the Pakastani military and government, you know that smuggled chunk of highly enriched uranium is gonna go on the market in some scumbag Albanian dive bar very soon.

    That should make you shit bricks.

    A US city getting glassed by a nuke in an uninspected ship container freely rolled into a US harbor while the TSA searches your granny's tits for a silicon implant bomb. Talk about security theater... It's a story that should be on the front page of every US newspaper everyday. But it isn't. It took a document dump to the world's media to even be elevated to the point of a news story. If that isn't a total failure of popular journalism then I don't know what is.

    Oh, and Bill O' Reilly and Hannity called for Assange's assassination on national TV. I mean here are 'journalists' (LOL) openly calling for the murder of other journalists for doing their jobs and daring not to be spokesmen for the complex. This is fucking surreal. The death of real balls in America. Truth is now deemed the enemy. In the land of free speech, they want to arrest or kill the only man prepared to hand it to them. Yet we're fighting for 'freedom' in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    These right wing 'badass' appealers to American badassary in war miss the point by so wide a mark that it makes me rage. You know what American badassery is? It's Patton driving through France in '44. It's McAuliffe holding out at Bastogne and writing "nuts" on a piece of paper when asked to surrender. It's MacArthur pulling off that amphibious assault at Inchon in 1950. Hell, it's Custer going down with all hands at Little Big Horn.

    The only badass left in America today is the TSA laughing at your saggy 'bad' ass in your naked irradiated scan at the airport.
    Randy's suave "pshaw, we all knew this stuff anyway, no one cares" is actually just a further symptom of the uselessness of media as an information outlet. We're just to blithely assume that news is mostly empty fluff, and we should trust our instincts and guts about what's really going on. News have moved from reporting into nearly fully manufacturing a product; spinning information with an interpretation you think your customers will buy. And people who're in media's focus have to take that into account with their behaviour, which then gets interpreted in some way, and so on. I'm not so sure media ever really just reported, but that's pretty immaterial to the point (unless one wants to continue with the suave cynicism and say that this is how it's gots to be, son, it's how it's always been) anyhows. Looking forward to be banking world leaks!
    In the future, the Berlin wall will be a mile high, and made of steel. You too will be made to crawl, to lick children's blood from jackboots. There will be no creativity, only productivity. Instead of love there will be fear and distrust, instead of surrender there will be submission. Contact will be replaced with isolation, and joy with shame. Hope will cease to exist as a concept. The Earth will be covered with steel and concrete. There will be an electronic policeman in every head. Your children will be born in chains, live only to serve, and die in anguish and ignorance.
    The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

  22. #52
    It took a document dump to the world's media to even be elevated to the point of a news story. If that isn't a total failure of popular journalism then I don't know what is.

    Unfortunately, most people pay more attention to Jersey Shore and NFL than "news". They even consider Fox News as fair and balanced "news". 500 million people are on Facebook now, and everyfuckingperson seems to Twitter every thought they have, all mixed in with "news" sources.

    The best way to grab popular attention these days is to make a movie, based on true stories, or docudramas. Tragedies of, war, espionage, corruption, poverty, injustice....they're only good for schadenfreude as entertainment, though. Must use headliner stars, too. Same for any charity cause, gotta have that Hollywood appeal.

    Then we can go shopping and grab a venti double latte cappuccino with cinnamon, and surf the web on a laptop with a bluetooth ear buds.

  23. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Nessus View Post
    Randy's suave "pshaw, we all knew this stuff anyway, no one cares" is actually just a further symptom of the uselessness of media as an information outlet. We're just to blithely assume that news is mostly empty fluff, and we should trust our instincts and guts about what's really going on. News have moved from reporting into nearly fully manufacturing a product; spinning information with an interpretation you think your customers will buy. And people who're in media's focus have to take that into account with their behaviour, which then gets interpreted in some way, and so on. I'm not so sure media ever really just reported, but that's pretty immaterial to the point (unless one wants to continue with the suave cynicism and say that this is how it's gots to be, son, it's how it's always been) anyhows. Looking forward to be banking world leaks!
    One of the main problems with the media is that most journalists are not trained in the area they report on; most are journalism or English majors. So they're usually out of their depth reporting on any complex topic and therefore end up dumbing it down, not because they're assuming the audience is dumb, but because they're dumb.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    One of the main problems with the media is that most journalists are not trained in the area they report on; most are journalism or English majors. So they're usually out of their depth reporting on any complex topic and therefore end up dumbing it down, not because they're assuming the audience is dumb, but because they're dumb.
    Hehe, that's funny because it's true.
    Congratulations America

  25. #55
    Being a Journalist is on the top ten list of dying professions.

  26. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Wow, the guy comes off as a total nutjob.
    Why? Because of the NDA, or the grudge?

  27. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ominous Gamer View Post
    Why? Because of the NDA, or the grudge?
    Grudge, and the revelations in the NY Times article (i.e. he acts like a tyrant, assumes he's God-like, attributes moral flaws to all opponents, etc.).
    Hope is the denial of reality

  28. #58
    The article, since Loki has this thing for going to extremes around this subject.

    I figured grudges were common practice in a lot of industries. I know producers of all sorts of products have a history of withholding their goods from distributors that have previously created bad pubicity or relationships. Hell, its so damn common that lawn mower companies dump WalMart over it, and of course publishers do it all the time with reviewers/new sources that they believe won't give a favorable review of their product.
    Last edited by Ominous Gamer; 12-02-2010 at 04:48 PM.

  29. #59
    The difference being that this guy considers himself the moral arbiter of society (even called for Clinton's resignation over the diplomat data-gathering cable). His inane attack on Amazon (saying he'll hire workers in Europe instead!) just contributes to the idea that he's not right in the head.
    Hope is the denial of reality

  30. #60
    then you should link to those reports/discussions/threats, some of which didn't happen until after your first post, instead of linking to a story that you thus far haven't used to explain your original volley.

    Amazon backstory for example:
    The controversial site, which has roused the ire of the U.S. government for leaking classified information, is no longer being hosted by Amazon's Web servers as of yesterday.

    WikiLeaks had been tapping into Amazon's EC2, or Elastic Cloud Computing service--including earlier this week. WikiLeaks said yesterday it's now being hosted by servers in Europe, according to Reuters.

    In response to its expulsion from Amazon, WikiLeaks tweeted two comments:


    "WikiLeaks servers at Amazon ousted. Free speech the land of the free--fine our $ are now spent to employ people in Europe."

    and

    "If Amazon are so uncomfortable with the first amendment, they should get out of the business of selling books."


    Amazon may have dropped WikiLeaks following inquiries from Sen. Joseph Lieberman (Ind.-Conn.), who is chairman of the Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs Committee. Lieberman's staff contacted Amazon officials on Tuesday asking them to explain the company's relationship with WikiLeaks.

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